Introduction

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Kamalavajri
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Introduction

Postby Kamalavajri » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:01 pm

Hello, my name is Kamalavajri. I have been involved with the Triratna Buddhist Community since 1986 and in the Order since 1996. I introduce people to meditation and the Buddha's Dharma at our local centre. I'm familiar with the teachings on no separate, permanent self. I have had experiences of understanding Buddhist teachings at a deeper level on retreats, but returning to a busy life, have not been able to stay with them or bring them to some conclusive direct understanding. Some of my friends have gone through the Direct Pointing process and all speak highly of it. What really prompted me to engage with it was a recent talk I heard by another Order Member. I have read "Gateless Gatecrashers" and found it utterly compelling and it has had an effect already. I would really appreciate some guidance, please.

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dridhamati
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Re: Introduction

Postby dridhamati » Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:04 pm

Hi Kamalavajri,

I just happen to have a 'slot' (no guiding more than 2 persons at a time here) so if you're happy for me to guide you then let's make it happen.

All the best,
Dridhamati

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Kamalavajri
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Re: Introduction

Postby Kamalavajri » Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:16 pm

That would be great, thank you.

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dridhamati
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Re: Introduction

Postby dridhamati » Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:32 pm

Hi Kamalavajri,

Thank you for accepting me as your guide.

Now, before we get started, a few points…

… about the process:
1. Could you please confirm that you agree with the Disclaimer on the home page of the LU site?
2. Let's aim to write once a day if possible, even if it's short. It is a good way to keep up the momentum. I have guided people as far as New Zealand so I'm used to time lag (I'm based in France at the mo').
3. Responses require utmost honesty.
4. Responses are best formulated from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). If you are unfamiliar with Direct Experience please let me know.

… about posting:
1. You might want to familiarise yourself with the useful 'Quote' function: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ote#p12593.
2. Best write your post in your favourite word processor, then copy & paste it into the editor on the LU forum, then format it as you wish. That way you won't lose your work half-way through (which can happen if there is a hiccup with the Internet connection...)
3. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

Sooooo. Now the formalities have been seen to, let's start shall we.

In your response to this post could you please say a little more about what brings you 'personally' here, and most particularly what you think/hope/expect could come out of this process?

Looking forward to working with you!

All the best,
Dridhamati

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Kamalavajri
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Re: Introduction

Postby Kamalavajri » Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:50 pm

Thank you, Dridhamati. I am trying to work through your points, but am struggling with the technology.
Yes, I agree with the points in the LU Disclaimer
I will be able to manage once a day usually, except when I'm away e.g. I have planned to go on an Order we from 3-5th Oct.The only technology I have is a laptop at home.
I will do my best to be completely honest
I am familiar with experiencing my thoughts and feelings directly(e.g. I have done Focusing). As you put Direct Experience in capitals, I wondered if it was a specific technique?
I have not managed to cut and paste this or use the quote function. Will answer your questions in another post.Hope they are easier than the technology!
Thanks once again for offering to guide me. Kamalavajri

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dridhamati
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Re: Introduction

Postby dridhamati » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:29 pm

Hi Kamalavajri,
Yes, I agree with the points in the LU Disclaimer....
Great! Thanks for agreeing.
I am familiar with experiencing my thoughts and feelings directly(e.g. I have done Focusing). As you put Direct Experience in capitals, I wondered if it was a specific technique?
It seems focusing has given you the abc of direct experience. There is an article on LU (http://liberationunleashed.com/articles/) that explains direct experience in more details.
I have not managed to cut and paste this or use the quote function.
Don't worry too much about technology. You can post and that's the main thing. Have you seen the little tutorial on using the Quote funtion? (http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660) If it still isn't clear, to quote me simply start the line with: DM – blah blah (what I wrote)...
Will answer your questions in another post.Hope they are easier than the technology!
No guarantees! Simple and easy aren't synonymous.
Thanks once again for offering to guide me.
Pleasure.

All the best,
Dridhamati

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Kamalavajri
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Re: Introduction

Postby Kamalavajri » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:41 am

Will try again on the Quote facility using your pointer and will look up the article. Meanwhile, wanted to respond to your questions and get started.
What brings me personally here?
Awareness that although I've been practising the Dharma for many years and this has led to much positive change, direct insight into it, particularly with regard to delusion, has not been established. Earlier this year,I resolved to give this central priority. Hearing a talk on the Order Convention, followed by reading "Gateless Gatecrashers", has led to faith in direct pointing and already changed the experiencing of things. Like realising I've been looking through the wrong end of a telescope!
What do I think/hope/expect could come out of this process?
Direct experience of there being a no separate, fixed, unchanging self, which would be of benefit to "myself" and "others".

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dridhamati
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Re: Introduction

Postby dridhamati » Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:35 pm

Hi Kamalavajri,

Thank you for the added information.

Meanwhile, as a starter and in connection with that last sentence at the end of your post:
There is no separate, fixed, unchanging “self”, which means there is no "myself" or "others" to benefit. There is no thing to gain, and no one to gain or lose any thing.

What does reading these two statements elicit?
Please just report back the felt sensations as observed.

All the best,
Dridhamati

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Kamalavajri
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Re: Introduction

Postby Kamalavajri » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:20 am

DM - blah blah(what I wrote)
Blown this to some extent. Accessed your post last night thinking to respond to it today. Won't do that again.
Last night: 1st response - shock
2nd response - outrage. How dare you use my words to quote the Diamond Sutra to me!
Today: There is no separate, fixed, unchanging "self" which means there is no "myself" or "other" to benefit.
Response - sense of relief, nothing to do, sense of letting go
There is no thing to gain and no-one to gain or lose any thing
Response - feeling of lostness, of stalled momentum

Hope the technology works and this gets to you. Kamalavajri
Hi Kamalavajri,

Thank you for the added information.

Meanwhile, as a starter and in connection with that last sentence at the end of your post:
There is no separate, fixed, unchanging “self”, which means there is no "myself" or "others" to benefit. There is no thing to gain, and no one to gain or lose any thing.

What does reading these two statements elicit?
Please just report back the felt sensations as observed.

All the best,
Dridhamati

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dridhamati
Posts: 642
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:09 pm
Location: Christchurch, NZ

Re: Introduction

Postby dridhamati » Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:59 pm

Hi Kamalavajri,
Last night: 1st response - shock
2nd response - outrage. How dare you use my words to quote the Diamond Sutra to me!
Thank you for this candid response.
Response - sense of relief, nothing to do, sense of letting go
Response - feeling of lostness, of stalled momentum
Again thank you for this.
Now let's have a closer look.

nothing to do, sense of letting go” - in some way that is exactly it.
For example, how about this little exercise:
- observe the mind: thoughts appear, stay there for a while, then vanish.
Question: do you know what the next thought is going to be?

feeling of lostness, of stalled momentum” - Question: was there an expectation?
To address this here is a little exercise in several parts.
Part 1:
- clear a table top of all objects,
- place a mug in the centre of that table top,
- sit comfortably and look at the mug.
Question: what is perceived through the sense of sight?
Please report only on what is perceived.

All the best,
Dridhamati

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Kamalavajri
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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:55 pm

Re: Introduction

Postby Kamalavajri » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:10 pm

Do you know what the next thought is going to be?
No - I generally don't know what the next thought is going to be. Being familiar with some patterns, it might be possible to predict that e.g thoughts could come about as a result of a previous conversation or event. It's not possible to know exactly what form they might take, or even if they would take form.

Was there an expectation?
An expectation that the process might lead to seeing in a different way, which might be helpful to "those" not seeing i.e. me at the moment, others later.

What is perceived via the sense of sight?
Light reflecting, shinyness, shadow, image of flower, shape, colour, lack of movement (it doesn't run across the table). Aware that these are concepts.
Hi Kamalavajri,
Last night: 1st response - shock
2nd response - outrage. How dare you use my words to quote the Diamond Sutra to me!
Thank you for this candid response.
Response - sense of relief, nothing to do, sense of letting go
Response - feeling of lostness, of stalled momentum
Again thank you for this.
Now let's have a closer look.

nothing to do, sense of letting go” - in some way that is exactly it.
For example, how about this little exercise:
- observe the mind: thoughts appear, stay there for a while, then vanish.
Question: do you know what the next thought is going to be?

feeling of lostness, of stalled momentum” - Question: was there an expectation?
To address this here is a little exercise in several parts.
Part 1:
- clear a table top of all objects,
- place a mug in the centre of that table top,
- sit comfortably and look at the mug.
Question: what is perceived through the sense of sight?
Please report only on what is perceived.

All the best,
Dridhamati

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dridhamati
Posts: 642
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:09 pm
Location: Christchurch, NZ

Re: Introduction

Postby dridhamati » Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:02 pm

Hi Kamalavajri,
Do you know what the next thought is going to be?
No - I generally don't know what the next thought is going to be. Being familiar with some patterns, it might be possible to predict that e.g thoughts could come about as a result of a previous conversation or event. It's not possible to know exactly what form they might take, or even if they would take form.
OK, so following on from this, another question:
If the next thought is not known, then who or what is in charge of this thinking?
Surely if it were “Kamalavajri” running the show, "she" would know what the next act is going to be, no?
Was there an expectation?
An expectation that the process might lead to seeing in a different way, which might be helpful to "those" not seeing i.e. me at the moment, others later.
Which implies 'someone/something' “seeing in a different way”, becoming helpful to “me” and “others”.
And crash, down goes the house of cards.
Please keep in mind: it is only the house of cards, the fantasy, that's crashed. The organism referred to as Kamalavajri is still functioning, life with and around Kamalavajri still happening. Yes?
What is perceived via the sense of sight?
Light reflecting, shinyness, shadow, image of flower, shape, colour, lack of movement (it doesn't run across the table). Aware that these are concepts.
Good. So there are raw sensations, expressed with concepts.
Part 2:
Question: is there a mug?

All the best,
Dridhamati

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Kamalavajri
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:55 pm

Re: Introduction

Postby Kamalavajri » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:26 pm

Thinking does just happen; different things trigger it e.g. events, communication, other thoughts. Even when there is a decision to think, the thoughts that emerge are unknown.
BUT what about formulaic thoughts e.g. in the Metta Bhavana - "may you be well, may you be happy" "I" can decide to think them and know what comes next. Aha!!!!

Is the house of cards the deluded notion of self? So organisms/conditions are still operating, it's just no-one owns them?

Part 2 There is no essence that is mug. There is just clay, paint, glaze, a particular form, a particular function. The handy label of mug is applied to all of these.
The thought/feeling arises - BUT I WANT TO BE DIFFERENT THAN A MUG!!!!!!!
Hi Kamalavajri,
Do you know what the next thought is going to be?
No - I generally don't know what the next thought is going to be. Being familiar with some patterns, it might be possible to predict that e.g thoughts could come about as a result of a previous conversation or event. It's not possible to know exactly what form they might take, or even if they would take form.
OK, so following on from this, another question:
If the next thought is not known, then who or what is in charge of this thinking?
Surely if it were “Kamalavajri” running the show, "she" would know what the next act is going to be, no?
Was there an expectation?
An expectation that the process might lead to seeing in a different way, which might be helpful to "those" not seeing i.e. me at the moment, others later.
Which implies 'someone/something' “seeing in a different way”, becoming helpful to “me” and “others”.
And crash, down goes the house of cards.
Please keep in mind: it is only the house of cards, the fantasy, that's crashed. The organism referred to as Kamalavajri is still functioning, life with and around Kamalavajri still happening. Yes?
What is perceived via the sense of sight?
Light reflecting, shinyness, shadow, image of flower, shape, colour, lack of movement (it doesn't run across the table). Aware that these are concepts.
Good. So there are raw sensations, expressed with concepts.
Part 2:
Question: is there a mug?

All the best,
Dridhamati

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dridhamati
Posts: 642
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:09 pm
Location: Christchurch, NZ

Re: Introduction

Postby dridhamati » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:35 am

Hi Kamalavajri,
Thinking does just happen; different things trigger it e.g. events, communication, other thoughts. Even when there is a decision to think, the thoughts that emerge are unknown.
That's the experience here.
BUT what about formulaic thoughts e.g. in the Metta Bhavana - "may you be well, may you be happy" "I" can decide to think them and know what comes next. Aha!!!!
OK, please look closely in direct experience at these 'formulaic thoughts'.
Agreed there may be a 'chain of thoughts' around some topic.
Questions:
- Can the start of that 'chain of thoughts' be found?
- Was there a controller behind the start?
- Can this controller be identified, located?

Another thing is: notice how long these 'formulaic thoughts' last before a thought pops up that has nothing to do with the topic.
Questions:
- Is this what “you” decided?
- Is this 'knowing what comes next'?

Is the house of cards the deluded notion of self? So organisms/conditions are still operating, it's just no-one owns them?
Look in direct experience. What are the sensations when this is uttered?
Part 2 There is no essence that is mug. There is just clay, paint, glaze, a particular form, a particular function. The handy label of mug is applied to all of these.
Indeed 'no essence that is mug', that is the experience here.
Part 3:
- grabbing this 'just clay, paint, glaze, a particular form, a particular function', liquid can still be poured in it, and sipped presumably.
Question: is there a mug?
The thought/feeling arises - BUT I WANT TO BE DIFFERENT THAN A MUG!!!!!!!
Different? Question: who or what 'WANTS TO BE DIFFERENT THAN A MUG'?
Please give a quick look around, pick ANY object of perception (including other organisms) and now look in direct experience.
Question: what do the senses perceive?
Just observe and report the raw sensations. And repeat this exercise a few times.

All the best,
Dridhamati

PS. There's something odd about the quoting. It comes up with huge separate quotes: your post first then my post. It doesn't matter really, just mentioning.

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Kamalavajri
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Re: Introduction

Postby Kamalavajri » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:58 pm

Thank you - lots to ponder here. Am very appreciative of the time you are making for me. Will try to log on tomorrow but may not have time between a study group and going off to the ROWE. Will keep direct experiencing and respond when I come back if not. Kamalavajri


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