Looking for a guide.

[greggyz]

Good day. My name is Greg and I am looking for a guide.

Thanks.

[Xain]

Nice to see you, Greg.
Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.

I'm a guide and might be willing to assist you.

What are you interested in?
What brings you here?

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

Hello, nice to meet you Xain.

Chan/Zen brought me here. I am still seeking and I want to be done with seeking. No matter how well I understand intellectually that there is nothing to seek and there is no one who seeks I still can't break through this thing.

[Xain]

Ok, Greg.
Well maybe we can look at things together.

You have a background in Buddhism?

No matter how well I understand intellectually that there is nothing to seek and there is no one who seeks I still can't break through this thing.

Rather than 'There is no seeker', I would say that the seeker is simply an idea, a thought.
Not a seperate self, an 'I', a person as it is generally believed to be.
I guide to achieve the realisation that 'I', is just a thought - An idea - That's all it has ever been.
More specifically (as a buddhist reference) that the self is 'empty'.

What would such a realisation mean to you?
What do you expect to happen? Do you have any expectations? Or fears?

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

I am familiar with liberation unleashed vocabulary. I clearly know what you mean. I had expectations from enlightenment until I worked with Zen for a while. Then my understanding got to the point where I could see that enlightenment is realising that there is no 'self' that gets enlightened and so on. Now I feel like I'm on the final edge, whenever I get close to the gate, I know it, I feel it, I lose things to hold on to, I feel like I got no ground to stand on and then either I slip back into a passive kind of mood or fear pushes me back into the comfort of playing the ego routine and my looking becomes less intense. The biggest fear has always been to go mad but I have seen this thought so many times it kinda sounds like rubbish to me. By the way, about 10 days ago after reading the liberation unleashed quotes I got hit so hard that that night huge fear came but I was so cool about it, it was just fear. If you asked me to describe my current condition it would be something a borderline between looking hard and loosening it then back to looking and loosening, it's like I need just a bit more effort to break through that final fear or whatever brings me back to a lazy looker/seeker.

[greggyz]

Ok, Greg.
Well maybe we can look at things together.

You have a background in Buddhism?

No matter how well I understand intellectually that there is nothing to seek and there is no one who seeks I still can't break through this thing.

Rather than 'There is no seeker', I would say that the seeker is simply an idea, a thought.
Not a seperate self, an 'I', a person as it is generally believed to be.
I guide to achieve the realisation that 'I', is just a thought - An idea - That's all it has ever been.
More specifically (as a buddhist reference) that the self is 'empty'.

What would such a realisation mean to you?
What do you expect to happen? Do you have any expectations? Or fears?

Xain ♥

This realization would mean everything to me because the only thing that bothers me is the thirst to know what enlightenment means.

[Xain]

Then my understanding got to the point where I could see that enlightenment is realising that there is no 'self' that gets enlightened and so on.

Yes. Good.
It is a simple realisation - Realising what has been going on all the time, but thoughts and ideas have masked over this simple 'truth'.

I feel like I got no ground to stand on and then either I slip back into a passive kind of mood or fear pushes me back into the comfort of playing the ego routine and my looking becomes less intense.

I understand. If you follow my guidance through to the end, there will be nothing left to hold on to and the realisation will be then probably be inevitable, but it will require totally honesty and dedication on your part.

The biggest fear has always been to go mad but I have seen this thought so many times it kinda sounds like rubbish to me.

Many people think I AM mad - But in a humourous way really.
Notice in this sentence there is a subtle belief.
In this guiding, it will be realised that there is no self that could go mad.

By the way, about 10 days ago after reading the liberation unleashed quotes I got hit so hard that that night huge fear came but I was so cool about it, it was just fear.

No problems - This is natural.
This guiding is nothing about killing or getting rid of anything, so have no fears about that.
It isn't even about changing anything. It is just realising what has been the case all along but hasn't been seen.
Of course, if any fears or worries do arise then please mention them and we can look at the issue together in a constructive way.

This realization would mean everything to me because the only thing that bothers me is the thirst to know what enlightenment means.

What do you expect to happen?
It will be realised (as you have said) that there is no-one to become enlightened.
It is important to put ALL expectations aside. This isn't about becoming something special, or having a nice experience, or permanent bliss. This is simply realising that 'I', this seperate self we believe we are is just an idea - A thought.

A few guidelines which will assist us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

If you need to you can use the QUOTE function like I have done above to quote some of your replies - It may make it easier to read through the dialogue.
A guide for this function can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660
Basically, anything that is inside [ QUOTE ] and [ / QUOTE ] will appear in a block.

Like this :-)

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

We are good to go. :)

[Xain]

Ok.
First off, we need to establish what you believe you are.
At this stage, please try to put intellectual analysis to one side - Also, put to one side any non-duality concepts and ideas. Approach this very basically and simply from what you really believe.

Right now, are you sitting or laying down and seeing a screen in front of you and reading words off it?
Simple as that really - Yes or No.

How about some other considerations . . .

Do you have control over your life?
Do you have control over your body?
The body that appears there right now, is it 'you'? Is it 'yours'?
Does the body see, hear, feel etc? (So in essence YOU see, hear and feel - You experience the world).
Do you choose what to think? Do the thoughts control your actions?

Throw any other ideas in the pot if you feel the need.
What does the word 'I' mean or point to?

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Do you have control over your life?
2. Do you have control over your body?
3. The body that appears there right now, is it 'you'? Is it 'yours'?
4. Does the body see, hear, feel etc? (So in essence YOU see, hear and feel - You experience the world).
5. Do you choose what to think? Do the thoughts control your actions?
[ / QUOTE ]
No, but to a slight extent and the thing that has control is not really "I"
No, but to a small extent.
If I am on autopilot then yes, yet whenever I am mindful I have no doubt that the body is not mine and never belonged to anyone.
4. Yes, the body does but that's not me. The idea might come up sometimes that 'I smelt that' but when I am sitting quietly in peace looking closely surely I have no doubt that those things happen by themselves.
5. I don't. Thoughts think themselves.

What the word 'I' means to me I can only answer from recollecting, coz now I am sitting here and I say I to myself I can't trace where it points to, really!

I have never had such a hard time answering anything. Each answer I would start with 'it depends' and so on, coz I am usually very precise with my speech and its coherence when it comes to some serious talks.

I hope it clears things up a bit for us :)

[Xain]

The quote function didn't quite work.
I had to uses spaces in the word [ QUOTE ] so you could see it on the screen, and so it wouldn't appear as a block.
Remove the spaces and it will work (the space between the square brackets and the letters Q and E).

Control over the body . . .
No, but to a small extent.

You probably agree that you don't control your heart beating or the food being digested - But what about the hands when typing?

If I am on autopilot then yes, yet whenever I am mindful I have no doubt that the body is not mine and never belonged to anyone.

Autopilot. That's interesting - We'll come back to that later.
There could be two levels to what you are describing. Can I suggest that they are 'when the mind and attention is engaged' and 'when the mind and attention is not engaged'?

The 'autopilot' you describe sounds like when driving a car. It all appears 'automatic' - We don't think about every single gear change and clutch/accelerator pedal push and indication. It all seems to 'happen' without deliberate conscious effort.

About seeing, hearing etc
Yes, the body does but that's not me. The idea might come up sometimes that 'I smelt that' but when I am sitting quietly in peace looking closely surely I have no doubt that those things happen by themselves.

Ok, this is something we can look at together.

What the word 'I' means to me I can only answer from recollecting, coz now I am sitting here and I say I to myself I can't trace where it points to, really!

That is also interesting. 'I' seems to have some relationship with memory. Something more we can look at.
'I am sitting here' relates the body - That's fine.

I have never had such a hard time answering anything. Each answer I would start with 'it depends' and so on, coz I am usually very precise with my speech and its coherence when it comes to some serious talks.

I understand - Your answers are fine.
A lot of these questions and examination might be pushing at things you've never considered before.
At this stage, I'm really just trying to get you to consider fully what 'I' is - What beliefs are there regarding what you are, what you do and what you have control over. Nothing that heavy really.

Let me know what you think so far and we can continue.

Xain ♥

[greggyz]

Let me be honest, I think I am very lost in definitions. I totally accept that ultimately there is no 'I' and there is no control at all because every single act of control is a bunch of chemicals are interacting with another bunch of chemicals. However, on conventional level I don't feel it's wrong to say I can control the movement of my arm.

If someone asked me to give a clear definition of 'I' at this point I would rather say that ultimately there is no such thing. The only problem I see is I haven't tasted what people refer to as enlightenment. I am very confident to say that I don't have any expectations on what it is but I only believe that I will definitely recognise it when I get it.

Thank you for you effort Xain!

[greggyz]

I am supposed to post daily but I don't have anything to say. I feel lost? Now that I typed it I asked who is lost and I don't have the answer? Just a thought....

[greggyz]

...

[Xain]

Sorry for the delay in responding.

However, on conventional level I don't feel it's wrong to say I can control the movement of my arm.

It is a perfectly acceptable idea. However, what is the truth in the statement?
It is believed there is a 'you' that controls the movement of the arm.
Also, the arm is 'yours' it belongs to 'you'.

Let's have a look at this now.

What I want you to do for the next exercise is to examine the experience and try to find the answer, rather than thinking about it. This might take a while to grasp - You may never have consider this before, but give it a go and see what can be found.

Choose one of your arms - It doesn't matter which.
Now when you wish to, raise the arm that you chose into the air.

Ok, now do this as many times as you wish to, and each time examine your experience to try to find what is making the arm move. Can anything in the experience be found that is making the arm move?
In other words, if it is said 'I raise the arm', what is 'I'? Is it something locatable?
Is this 'I' something that can be found here right now?

Also, what makes the arm 'yours'? There is an arm - Sure. What makes it 'my arm'?
What is the owner? Is the owner something that can be found? Is the owner here?
What is the owner of the arm?

Xain ♥