Otter and Love Blossom

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Otter and Love Blossom

Postby otterrivers » Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:11 pm

Love Blossom please tell me where we are starting. Keep it brief. Just the facts. Sum up where you are at this point in a few sentences. That will really help get this started.

Love Blossom:
Ok. The "sense of self", attachment to "me" is being seen as an illusion that had a very strong hold in "my" life. Feelings and thoughts are just as strong, but there has been a change since I read Gateless Gatecrashers" last week. I'm seeing them as "not me", that I am not the I in thoughts, but I am the "seeing" of them. I am the happening in what's happening. It's like a new way of Seeing

But there still a need for "outside confirmation", and others on the path to confirm that there is nobody really here doing the doing

There's a resistance still in hanging out with those in resistance to this truth ...looking at that resistance.

There is still a desire to get approval from others. Wanting to get acceptance, attention and affection

Brief. Please. Lol. As much as possible. Really sum it up. I have to leave the wifi at work now

Love Blossom:
I want to not be afraid of being afraid

I might be able to respond some time tomorrow but can't guarantee. Depends on if I am around wifi or not. And I am having five days off so can't have much real conversation until Saturday maybe. I will find time to pop in here and there though. Bye for now. Sorry!

Love Blossom:
I have no expectations for a reply tonight.

I hear what you're saying. Please be patient. Breathe easy. We will talk. got to go get my bus now. Best wishes til we talk again!

Love Blossom:
Thank you Otter
All my best to u too

Today, there is still a sense of a "me", an "individual" seeing through separation, BUT, there has also been an understanding of a reversal of this sense. That this body and mind is doing it's thing all of it own. Is this "me" pretending it's not here, when there a sense it's still here? Does this make any sense. I have heard Tony Parsons say, "there is only either a sense of the me or no more sense of the me and that these expressions can't be happening at the same time.

Clarity has arrived! The thoughts of "me" are still hovering, but there is clarity of seeing through the illusion. But for the "Grace of God" to descend, I will never know Liberation. There seems to be a waiting happening, a journeyless journey, a processless process, until there are no more thoughts of self. The attention goes to the Un-named, the Constant Presence.

I did a good job guiding! Haha. I should be able to respond more fully tonight or in the morning

To start, this thought that there is a desire for confirmation and acceptance from others: let me say before anything else, I accept you fully. Just as you are right now. Consider this a hug. I see you and I accept all your beauty and loveliness and power. and even any nastiness or things you don't think you like about you... doesn't matter to me. I just wanted to acknowledge that first. I fully accept you just as you are right here now. With complete affection which you don't have to earn. You are already wonderful. I hope that settles that.

You say you are not the feelings or thoughts but you ARE the seeing of those things. So can you find that to be true in reality? In direct experience? Is there this duality of "this is me, that is not"? DE (direct experience exercise):
Notice a feeling right now. Whatever feeling is there. Where in the body is it noticed? How would you describe the sensation?
Now notice if there is actually any separation between the sensation that is noticed and the actual noticing of it. Can you find this line of division? Is there an observer that is not the observed?

Love Blossom:
Omygoodness! I broke out with tears after your first post. It hit a cord deep inside, and I began crying instantly. There was a permission to cry, and the sensations were intense contractions in the solar plexus area, and the throat. Even around my eyes, there were sensations.
Aaah, seeing and feeling all of it.

It was the feeling of sadness, remembering that I wasn't loved, but then there were words of love, and this love embraced me totally.
These sensations themselves and the noticing/feeling of them were not separate. No division line.
Also noticed a quick thought that said, "I feel these sensations", but now i see "thinking" too.
All this noticing, seeing, sensing, observing, thinking, & feeling. There is just these things happening. More thinking about, "this is me thinking, feeling it"...more thinking. No one thinking. More feeling, more sensing...

Those words of love, Otter, were very intense. I took them in very deeply. So much meaning in them. It feels like you are saying them to "me"

Yes, I did say, " I am not the feelings or thoughts", and I also see that there is no such thing as dividing the sensation and the sensing and the sensor. It's all one Sensing. That's a relief! Oh Otter, I just love you!!!! You are helping.

Gonna practice all of this "seeing"as I move through this day.

"I" being the Seeing. Lol

?? you are doing all the work for me.

I sense your wonderfulness. But I don't even need to know THAT about you to fully accept and appreciate you. It's nothing personal. Life is just fantastic. It's me too. It's the heart. Not yours or mine.

So it is obvious to you that there is no inner separate "myself" that experiences sensations from "outside" or even closer, thoughts and feelings. Let's look somewhere else. Responsibility/decision making/choosing. Do you make any choices or influence life in any way?

Love Blossom:
Yes, I "believe" I do. I just downloaded a Running App called "running keeper"; and in it, I chose a 28 training plan that will get me ready for a 5K run.
Someone on FB mentioned it, and it sparked my interest. So, it's a day to day instruction program to get me up and enjoying activity

Great! So there was the option to do this or not or do something else. And downloading the app is what happened. Now is there any possibility that anything else could've happened?

Also, is the thinking mind responsible for the option that was picked? Is there a decider? And if so, what is it?

Love Blossom:
Lol, it feels like "I" chose and did all that. I know I didn't, that it's all happening according to a Grander Plan. And that is just another "thought" either to identify with or not.

Noticing that there are oodles and oodles of thoughts in constant motion. It's very active.
You ask if there was any possibility of another option that could've happened and I would say yes there was another option and that was to not download the app
But again, is that not just "another thought"? Yes, it is
Whoa, talk about a lot of thinking going on, made into a "story"

Oh Otter. You are a good guide

Yes. Check and see if it REALLY feels like "i" did/chose it. Describe the sensation.

There was a happening. The app was downloaded. There is a feeling. There is a thought/story that the feeling points to a doer.....

Love Blossom:
The sensation feels like a sense of pride and that the thought says "you made a good did a good job because now you're going to get active and it's good to be active, and it may just inspire others to do the same"

The thought does indeed point to somebody doing something. It appears that the thought was the cause and doing the action was the effect

But more direct than that.

Describe the actual sensation. Like: where in the body? What type of feeling? Without descriptors like pride or happiness or stress. Just the actual feeling. Like: tingle or squeezing or tickle etc. see what I mean? Try again. Feel that feeling you have labelled "me the decider". Describe in DE

Love Blossom:
Ok. Mmm, I'll get back to you on this... I've never done this exercise before, describing a body sensation to a decision that I believe I've done...

The feeling is fear.... Fear that the decision may not be the right one. Guilt that I will be judged in a negative, criticizing way...Doubt. ..the sensation is a "tightening ...a contraction" in the body...uneasiness ... "expectations" that the outcome of the decision will bring some kind of relief/happiness.

Ok no problem. But try again. It's ok if u don't get it right away. That's why this process is called "pointing". I will just point back to what I mean again. There's no rush. So when I ask you to describe the sensation I don't mean, for example "fear" or "guilt" I mean describe the sensation. I can see that you have labeled this sensation fear or guilt BUT what does it feel like? where in the body is it? and what does it feel like even before the label "fear" or "guilt". Can you describe a sensation? See I'm pointing you out of mind with it's stories and labels and into the senses, which are your only available evidence in DE, outside of mind stories.

For example "stress" or "anger". Before those labels (which are just an assumed connection between the mental story and the sensation) there is what? A sensation. Maybe an ache/pressure in the head. Or a tingling in the chest.

So you're doing great! But now please try again!

The mind story is "fear. =bad. = don't like".

The sensation before that story is:....... ???

Love Blossom:
"Me", the decider of a "good decision"...
The sensation...A "zinging" feeling, (adrenaline rushing ) and there is also a jolt of energy, tingling on the skin, tightening in the throat area, heart rate increase

Heart rate increase feels like a thumping/pounding sensation in the chest area.

Nice. That's what I was asking about. Very good. Now these feelings/sensations... Can they do or decide anything? Can a zinging feeling make a decision?

You are not the feelings then right? You could argue that the feelings are the result of the doing. Ok. But is this evidence if a doer?
You mentioned it seems that the thought caused the action. Try this exercise. Feel your leg. Left or right. Think as hard as you can: "I will move the leg! MOVE leg! MOVE!!!!" Tell me, did the thought cause the leg to move?

Love Blossom:
Lol. No, thought is not a cause. It's just thinking seeming to be a cause. No rhyme or reason, just noticing this, and this looking is all that's really happening. Lol

And are you the looker?

Love Blossom:
Listening to Brendan Smith , speaking on "no self", it's helping
There's still a sense of a looker, but there's clarity that there isn't. It's an old habit of a delusional way of seeing.
I need more of this pointing, the desire is increasing. This kind of immersion into looking ...will this be the cause of an "event" of no-self"

Let's have a look. Is there a sense of a looker? Describe the sensation. Is this sensation really the sense of a looker? Or is there just some sense that has come to be habitually labelled as the feeling of "there is a looker"?

Love Blossom:
The eyes blink, and sense of seeing feels like it's coming from behind the eyes. But there is still seeing of images with eyes closed, so these images are a memory, a current thought. It's definitely experienced as a habit. It's like an addiction.

This is going great!
Let's look at even THAT assumption! Does the sense of seeing REEEEAALLLY seem to be behind the eyes?

Love Blossom:
All day, there has been intense devotion to looking at thinking, feeling, sensing, questioning all assumptions. Lots of being present. A lighter feeling, non-local

is this also a habitual assumption. Does ANYthing besides thought/story tell you seeing is behind the eyes?

Love Blossom:
The sense of seeing,,, um, assumed to be coming from the eyes, a conditioned learning, all thoughts "about" what's happening

Yes. Where is seeing happening?

Love Blossom:
I move my head up and down, and seeing images change. There's an assumption there of why. All circumstantial evidence
Oh Otter, I am willing, is this "me" about to "die?" The mind understands that when fear comes, it is only coming to protect the dying of the me

Can you be sure there is a head? Or is this another story? Don't worry if it sounds crazy. Of course for all intents and purposes there is a head. But look at experience and tell me if you can prove there REALLY is a head.

Love Blossom:
Touching the head, it's a label for a hard surface area, round, with strands of things, (hair) etc. All labels on top of touching/sensing, so the "head" has come about through "thinking"

Head = Sensations. Happening where?
Look at a mirror. More sensation called sight.
Reach up and touch it.
More sensation.
Where do the sensations happen?

Look at another person. Is there any self there either?
Is anything "out there" as opposed to "in here"?
Is there any evidence of separation in any way? I mean in DE, not thought stories.

Love Blossom:
It's a story. By somebody.
When the me goes, the stories go, (or the belief in them )

By somebody?
Was there ever a self to have stories?
Or was the central self another story? Can a story tell a story?
Will the self die?
Ask this: can something that was never real die?

Love Blossom:
Sensations are just being sensed. In the moment, there is only this sensing happening, but there's nobody doing it, and nothing out there being sensed. It's all one flow of flowing.

Ya, Nothing unreal can die. It just seen truly

Answer this: have you seen clearly and without question through the illusion of separate self?

Love Blossom:
No "event" has occurred, that everything is seeing. There's still a limited seeing, but the mind is forging a new perceptive path
It's a process, until it's not
I feel like I need more practicing at this new way of seeing.

Can you know there should be an event? But in any case, just look right now. Is there an inner being receiving input from an outer world? Enjoy that space and see what freshness blossoms there. Then tell me there was no event! Hahaha.

Love Blossom:
It's very close...I'll let you know in the morning.

But what is an expectation? Another thought story! You have heard of others having an enlightenment event so the story says it must happen.
It's not about having a moment of fireworks. Just look again. Have another fresh look. There is your event!

i feel that you are ready. Whatever unmet expectations you may have can be dealt with afterwards. You are at the gate if not already through. It just probably doesn't look how you expected. But there is continued help after the gate. Because old habits die hard. even after the gate the habitual mental story of self seems to seek to cling to survival.

So, here are the final questions:
(Some of them we have already talked about but just answer as if you have never even considered it before)
  1. Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
  2. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
    your own experience. Describe it fully as you seeit now.
  3. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
    Please report from the past few days.
  4. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
  5. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
    does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
  6. Anything to add?
Once you've answered, I'll look at your answers and so will some of the other guides, and we'll come back with more questions if we think anything needs clarifying.

Love Blossom:
Otter , I have read these questions and I will have the opportunity to answer tonight, as my husband & I, and 3 kids are planning a day out of town. I will be watching and contemplating these questions in depth throughout the day. The awareness of watching is happening. It's happening about 80% of the time. I'm at the gateless gate


Love Blossom:
Here are my responses:

i feel that you are ready. Whatever unmet expectations you may have can be dealt with afterwards. You are at the gate if not already through. It just probably doesn't look how you expected. But there is continued help after the gate. Because old habits die hard. even after the gate the habitual mental story of self seems to seek to cling to survival.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
No there is no separate entity anywhere in any way shape or form and there never was and there never will be. All that is, is this present witnessing, with no separate witness or a separate thing being witnessed.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of separate self is identification with thought (with a sense of ownership); a belief that there is a thinker who thinks thoughts and is in control of them and actions. It starts around the age of two when the child starts to separate himself from the parents and discovers that he can have things that are his so he says "mine". From my own experience, I am seeing that thought comes after an invisible choice and then consciousness becomes limited by giving its power to thought; and then thought acts on behalf of consciousness, takes credit for that choice and stamps an, "I did it" so that the action appears to follow the thought. As I see it now, thought does not even need to be appearing for actions to occur.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
It feels "exciting", a sense of relief, a wakefulness to innocence. There is less guilt in mind as thoughts come to mind, trying to be the boss of "me". They have less force to induce guilt.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Just this morning there was a sense of uncomfortableness by sitting in a place of "non-doing" , there was an ability to watch those thoughts and those feelings without trying to cover them up or repress them. I did not try to fix anything in that moment and it felt really good. I sat in this for about two hours, and just noticing that the body wasn't moving, and the thoughts were busy.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
There is no "me" that is responsible but when a thought comes up, there's a feeling of gratefulness that awareness is there to notice them and to look at them and no longer be a slave to them. This makes decisions, control, and free will, void and obsolete. The choice was made before thought appeared and this choice was based on a previous belief and a desire. The only thing that I am responsible for is to let all thoughts and feelings arise when they are noticed and to see them and to honor them and to acknowledge them and that's it.
Today I just stayed in the witnessing roll and noticed that everything was happening spontaneously and there was nobody making the decisions. This felt like a very peaceful way to live. The stress and energy of believing thought takes a lot of energy and makes one very sleepy.
6) Anything to add?
I have to agree with you Otter, Old habits take a long time to unwind and Fade away. I am even noticing these habits today and thoughts and old feelings based on past belief. There was an action of my boys teasing each other and then a thought comes and tells them to stop and then "I" tell them to stop. It feels like I am not even in control of that. But after the words have been spoken, I can look at that and notice that I can release that belief that there is an "i" that spoke.

Sorry Love Blossom. Been having some problems sleeping at night. So at work today I am barely able to focus and get my work done. I hope I can get back to you tomorrow.

Love Blossom:
Ok. Today, after 2 days of a wonderful weekend getaway with my husband, enjoying walks, etc at our mountain resort, I'm still noticing no feeling or thoughts around sex. Nothing is coming up. The desire for something that isn't happening seems to trigger sadness and anger in him, and instead of feeling guilt, I feel a compassion for him. We've been married for 16 years, and these past two days was so amazing, the Present Moment was vividly alive. I continue looking deeply at all thought reactions and ongoing feelings arising. I have no desire to "fix" these feelings in my husband. The body simply does not do what he begs it to do. The energy has changed. Looking at that too. What does it mean?
Nothing. There's no story there. It's just happening this way.
Thanks Otter.
Hope your sleep patterns change soon. Is there a sense of downloading happening?

Oh. That actually means you're a bad person.

Haha. Just kidding. Don't worry dear Love Blossom. We have some great after care/post gate Facebook groups where you can bring troubles like this. I totally understand what u mean but I won't try to offer any advice right now. After we are done here I will get you added to the groups and you can speak with other newly "gated" as well as guides. It's pretty great. For this conversation here though, I'll stick to guidance for the purpose of seeing there is no separate self. Which I understand we are just waiting on me. I have to check your answers and have a couple other guides do so too. I did get some sleep last night but only three hours. And woke up with a pulled butt muscle! Haha. Got my work cut out for me today and I don't have wifi at home. I'll try to find time tonight. Sorry. Thanks for being patient. As far as the current situation it sounds as if you are handling it well. I have some thoughts on the subject but I'll hold off in that for now. .

Especially since I'm not a counsellor. I would only offer some conversation. As a friend. But not yet.

One thing I can point out about your most recent comment (since it has to do with our current guidance/conversation) is this: Are you worried about it? Just a reminder-
Do you have any choice or control over the actions you take (or don't take)? What evidence do you have that shows it could be ANY other way? Should it be different? If so, how can you know that? We have seen that thoughts are only stories. What besides thought tells you it would be better if it was different?

Now to respond to those six questions you answered:
-you say thought only comes after the choice. Then you say choices are based on a previous belief. What is a belief besides a thought story? Is this a special case where thought CAN originate an action?

Love Blossom:
Do you have any choice or control over the actions you take (or don't take)?

No, it only appears so.
What evidence do you have that shows it could be ANY other way?
Thoughts say, "it could be different", but thoughts are not true evidence
Should it be different?
No, Whatever happens, has already been accepted to happen, all that happens is all effect.
What besides thought tells you it would be better if it was different?
Nothing. Thoughts are the the only mechanism that seem to say so. Life happening is all there is.

So can you tell me more about "the only thing I am responsible for is..."
Is it just a matter of wording or do you really believe there is someone at the center allowing something or not? The psychological self (that habitual story that says the story of "separate me" is not another story) is quite tricky. It's often willing to give up quite a bit of power as long as it can continue to exist. (Of course it's a metaphor. I'm not implying there is a being that is doing this. Just an unconscious tendency. I'm just using the imagery to help describe it.)
It is like a great tyrant empress. Maybe this one is very clever and has enough information from her spy network that she knows her people are about to rebel and she has no chance for victory. So rather than fight, she declares a democracy but with herself as a key position of power. A kinder and gentler tyrant. Haha. She gets to retain some power and the people stop seeking an end to her rule. Much better than being killed or exiled.

Love Blossom:
Now to respond to those six questions you answered:
-you say thought only comes after the choice.

This entire lifetime, all thoughts are effect of a previous "choice". That previous choice came before, (the past), and was either an attachment to thought, or a desire to detach from thought. So, no thoughts that arise now are in anyone's control. They are either appearing as loving thoughts or fearful thoughts. They are simply re-appearing as an effect of a past attachment to thought, or a detachment from thought. Like a loop. This is just another story, but it helps to increase the desire to continue to detach from thoughts.

Then you say choices are based on a previous belief. What is a belief besides a thought story? Is this a special case where thought CAN originate an action?
All I can say is that when the conditions are "ripe", will seeing happen, the thoughts are not thought by a thinker, they simply occur to finally see them as meaningless.

U get my point, or am I not making any sense?

When confronted with the undeniable truth there is the possibility that this attachment to ideas of separation can agree to attach to new ideas of much less separation. Like "I am consciousness/seeing" or "I only have control over..." Or "there is absolutely no self at all. ......and I have seen this but others haven't so I am set above these poor others" hahah

When you say "this is just another story but it helps..." That gives me faith that you are not really believing that. That's perfect. Stories don't need to go away do they? What else is there? It is enough that you see it is a fiction. A useful fiction even, maybe.

I don't ask these things because I doubt you. It's just my job to check if it is just a matter of wording or if you mean it literally. How can we possibly describe non-separation with words anyway? Words only give the illusion of cutting reality into pieces. Like the word "dog" also means "not non-dog" lol. Even "non-duality" excludes duality. But since words are all we have to work with here, we do our best. Eventually through asking enough I get the "feel" of what you are saying.

You can see that a thought comes before an action that has similarities with the preceding thought. But that proves a cause/effect relationship? Say you are sitting by a wall with a small hole in it. Then you see an elephant trunk appear on the other side of the hole. And as the elephant passes you see it's body then it's tail. By your logic, you could say it is obvious that the appearance of the trunk caused the appearance of the tail. No? I will look for a response tomorrow. You are doing great. Sorry if I wrote too much for you to take in easily. I just wanted to be very clear.

Love Blossom:
Otter, you asked me to finish the statement, "the only thing I am responsible for is..."

Nobody is responsible. There are just a bunch of thoughts coming from apparent different body/minds, (all one cluster of thoughts appearing as if from different body/minds)
All stories are ALL fiction. All of it.
But, within the story, I am responsible to choose to see that thoughts do not mean anything. There is no cause/effect relationship. It's all events put together in a linear fashion by thoughts, and conclusions are formed by more thoughts. It's all thoughts. So, within the dream, there is a desire to allow all things to be as they are. But again, it's initiated by no one. It's the mystery of God! , haha. This again, I see as another conclusion.
No matter how you slice it, there's another thought about it. Reality cannot be seen by thoughts.

Truth can't be seen, only seeing through the illusion can. Joy springs out of seeing through the illusion of there being a "real me" and a "real you".

There's also another thought that came to mind. Within the story, "Love Blossom" is being used as a means for the whole world to wake up. I am not special. There's nobody to wake up. Love Blossom seems to live and seems to die. "God" has it all planned, and some people will see through the illusion, and some won't. But there really isn't anyone here, even in the story. So, it only in "my" mind that there are real "somebody's" out there.
It's been a big big story.
The end of that story is here. You are guiding "me" out, (or it's just happening), and there never really was a story. That's all made up too.
Frick! What a mind-trip.

So, as I start the day, there has already been frustration at "my husband". There's feelings and thoughts blaring "me" in the face. Oh ya, it's part of the story. So, as the story unfolds, there is more and more clear seeing through the illusion of "the story of me". Thank you Otter. Language is a "blutty" pain in the but! Haha

"Frick"? "Blutty"? "Butt"?

If you can't control your foul language than this conversation is OVER!

Haha. Jk. I'll find some time to respond fully in the next few hours. ????

I'm sorry to have to delay again. I really was unable to find time tonight.

Love Blossom:
All is well, even in what "we" call "delays". Your guiding has been superb.
Really seeing the Moment as the greatest Gift, even when the thoughts seem to bring "uncomfortableness". It seems there is a purification going on, but again, more story. The moment sparkles for no one, it's all meaningless to no one. It simply is what it is, no words.


Ok Love Blossom. I'm just reading over our talk and having some other guides have a look too. You might want to re-read it as well and see if it looks good too or if there's anything you feel we still need to look at

Love Blossom:
Hi Otter, let's have another look at cause & effect.
The mind mechanism makes up a linear story(a 'this' causing a 'that') based on a string of thoughts, and a string of perceptions and a string of sensations. Puts them together using more thoughts. There is truly no relationship at all between these movements of "energy". But the mind, who has made up this "me", convinces itself that there is indeed a relationship of cause and effect. So, this is how the sense of self is fed. "I did this", "he did that"
Seeing every thought and sensation, and how they appear to build a succession of linear movements. Like a series of images appear to "move" when flipping the pages in a kids flip chart .
But, nothing like that can be really concluded to be true, because that conclusion is made out of a thought.
Again, no story there. No one there to blame, to give credit to. (Even though that may appear to happen) the guilt is melting away more and more.
There's less judgemental thoughts, positive and negative. Opinions don't have the "juice" they once had. (Memory thoughts are present thoughts too)

The unravelling is what is happening. Recognizing this is happening. See is is happening. The meaningless in all this is extraordinarily wonderous

Ok. You said "let's have another look" then you completely guided yourself through. :)
The mind makes a story "this caused that". Yes. Should this stop?

Love Blossom:
Um, good question. "I thought so"
"This causing a that" doesn't have to stop, as this was an assumption that would help stop suffering.
Suffering comes from belief. Not the content of it.

No one here. That's it. All expressions, ALL of them are allowed. The "self" IS opposition itself. But opposition may arise, and that's OK too:)

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