Guide Available - Let's Have a Look, Shall We?

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jeronimo
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Guide Available - Let's Have a Look, Shall We?

Postby jeronimo » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:39 am

Hiya

If you've come to see through the illusion of a separate self, I am here to guide you.

Tell me your story and what you're hoping to get out of this experience... and we'll go from there!

jeronimo

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Usha
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Re: Guide Available - Let's Have a Look, Shall We?

Postby Usha » Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:13 am

Hello Jeronimo!

My name is Usha and I have been yearning to see the Absolute truth of existence for a long time now. I will just give you a brief story of my life as a background for you to know where I am coming from.
I have been raised by Jain parents and since very young age I was taken by my parents to meet and listen to the preachings of Jainism given by the monks. That laid the seed of knowing about life in a deeper sense from childhood but that was forgotten as growing up and career building happened though I strongly identified with the philosophies of Jainism and the most important of that being do no harm to others , so been a vegetarian all life and now a vegan.
Then later in 2008, I came in touch with the teachings of Brahmakumaris and though I studied them intensely for a couple of months, I didn't become an active member of their society. But its philosophy stayed with me for a few years though it didn't answer all my question.
Then came the reading of Jed McKenna which seemed like a big shock to my system and put me on the path to finding the real Truth devoid of any belief systems. So I started reading and listening to other teachers and out of all those, Sri Nisargdutta Maharaj's teachings seem to resonate with me very well. But now I was stuck because I understood everything intellectually and didn't know when I will be actually experiencing the 'all pervading Consciousness' that everyone in this field keeps on talking about.
But lo and behold I come across this site ( thanks to my brother who felt equally stuck after I got in to his ear about all my intellectual understanding and so he finally found this valuable resource) where I am delighted to see for the first time that are more like me in this journey who are actually in the same boat as me and its not as depressing and gloomy as Jed McKenna makes it to be in his book !!
So anyways, now after reading part of the GateCrashers book and a few conversation threads, I started to look for an 'I' and have found nothing and realized for the first time that this is what self enquiry really means!!
But it seems to me like a conscious exercise that I need to do everytime to remind me there is no 'I' and so don't stress about finishing some pending work and so I am not like always floating in the air liberated like others who have experienced feel... so is there more to my experience..I have known this LU site and so 'no I' understanding only for a week, so is there some maturation time that I need to allow?
Sorry if this is getting too long and boring for you but since we are meeting for the first time I am just explaining you the complete 'Me' :) Looking forward to hearing from you

Usha

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jeronimo
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Re: Guide Available - Let's Have a Look, Shall We?

Postby jeronimo » Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:06 pm

Hi Usha!

Sounds like you've come to the right place. Welcome!

I would be happy to guide you and help you look and really 'get it.' I am in the Pacific Time Zone of the US, just for timing awareness. (I sent you a response to your PM, but not sure if you got it or not.)

For us to proceed, let's just get a few details out of the way. Can you let me know that you've read and agree to the disclaimer: http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

And then a little contract between us:
1 - You agree to post at least once per day
2 - I will ask questions and point and you will respond with 100% honesty!
3 - You will work with the Direct Experience method of inquiry - finding answers from experience. Longwinded, analytical, and philosophical answers are best avoided and may actually hinder progress.
4 - Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
-- Put your attention and effort into seeing reality AS IT IS.
-- It's ok to continue any essential daily meditation practice.

It would also be great to learn the quote function:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

That way, we can stay very clear and on track.

Let me know if you have any questions.
If you can answer yes to all ... then let's go!

Jeronimo

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Usha
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Re: Guide Available - Let's Have a Look, Shall We?

Postby Usha » Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:33 am

Hi Jeronimo!

Still cant figure out how to use the quote function after a few trials, so just letting you know that yes I agree to the disclaimer and also agree to the contract 100%. You can expect 200% honesty from my side for all the questions and I am actually over the reading and intellectually understanding philosophies part of the spiritual seeking and want some hands on experience, so LETS GO :) !!!

Lots of positive energy to both of us!!
Usha

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Usha
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Re: Guide Available - Let's Have a Look, Shall We?

Postby Usha » Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:35 am

Also not sure why is the message I sent you earlier is still in my outbox?? I did get both your messages, didn't you get mine?

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jeronimo
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Re: Guide Available - Let's Have a Look, Shall We?

Postby jeronimo » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:09 pm

Hi Usha

I did get your last message. Mine was also in my outbox. Anyway ... here we are :)

All great. The quote function is super easy. Let me see if I can explain. When you reply to this message, use the button on the lower left that says "post reply." If you click "quick reply," you won't get the font and quote buttons.

When you're in the typing window, you'll see a button at the top that says "Quote." You simply click that. It then puts into your conversation "[ quote][ /quote]"

Whatever text you'd like to show up as a quote, you should copy and paste after the "[ quote]" and before the "[ /quote]"
The text you put in there will show up in our conversation looking like this.
You can see what that looks like by clicking the "preview" button before submitting your reply.

Hope that helps .. it will make it easier to stay on track and for other guides to know just where we are if asked to take a look at our conversation.

If you still can't figure it out ... no big deal. Just thought we'd give it one last try!

You also might begin writing on another text editor and then copy/paste your responses here. People have been known to be suddenly logged off and lost what they were writing (thought this hasn't happened to me).

----

Ok, thanks for agreeing to the contract :)

And thank you for sharing your story. It's common to have an intellectual understanding without really seeing it. That's what we'll be doing here. I'll point and you look. We'll notice what the thoughts and intellect have to say about it as well. And no, it doesn't have to be depressing and gloomy! All falling away of belief will be different for different people.

Let's start with expectations.

What are your expectations for liberation?
How will this feel?
How will it change you?

jeronimo

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Usha
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Re: Guide Available - Let's Have a Look, Shall We?

Postby Usha » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Hi Jeronimo!

Thanks for explaining the quote function. It helped and now I can use it!

I will quickly answer your questions now :)
What are your expectations for liberation?
Liberation will be freedom from the mind. It will be living outside of the mind without the constant mental chatter that goes on with every incident that happens. Mind will then find its right place as just being a tool and non-interfering and non-interpreting life. Liberation will also be living outside time. Not worrying about the past and future events. Liberation will be free flow of LIFE in all its glory!!!
How will this feel?
It will feel AMAZING , EMPOWERING, LIBERATING and the feeling of Oneness with everything, I can’t even describe how it will feel but that’s what I soooo wanna feel!!!
How will it change you?
It will change me by making me free from all fears in my life!!! I will not feel afraid of darkness anymore … I will be able to stay alone at night anywhere ( right now I can’t stay alone even in my own house !!) My biggest fear of ghosts/spirits ( I know it sounds very silly but I am being 200%honest here) when I am alone anyplace will vanish!!! That itself will make me soooo free :)

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Re: Guide Available - Let's Have a Look, Shall We?

Postby jeronimo » Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:12 pm

Hi Usha

Thanks for your responses! It's great to identify your expectations.

However, let's recognize these as expectations only... and not reality. Liberation will think, feel, and act differently for different people. For many, it is a very minor shift in perception... with big ramifications. For others, it is a bigger initial event.

All this to say that you shouldn't expect fireworks or the cure to all your ills.
Liberation will be freedom from the mind. It will be living outside of the mind without the constant mental chatter that goes on with every incident that happens. Mind will then find its right place as just being a tool and non-interfering and non-interpreting life. Liberation will also be living outside time. Not worrying about the past and future events.
I think you're on to something. But there are definite expectations here that should be tabled for now. Living outside of time ... freedom from the mind... we'll have to see, won't we?
Liberation will be free flow of LIFE in all its glory!!!
Yes!
It will feel AMAZING , EMPOWERING, LIBERATING and the feeling of Oneness with everything, I can’t even describe how it will feel but that’s what I soooo wanna feel!!!
It may feel this way. Might not. But just be careful how "you" want to feel.

Who is this 'you' that wants the feel this way?
It will change me by making me free from all fears in my life!!! I will not feel afraid of darkness anymore … I will be able to stay alone at night anywhere ( right now I can’t stay alone even in my own house !!) My biggest fear of ghosts/spirits ( I know it sounds very silly but I am being 200%honest here) when I am alone anyplace will vanish!!!
Something to look at... 'who' will not feel afraid?
Don't expect all of your thoughts and fears to suddenly disappear. This might prove disappointing.

Liberation is a step ... a big step. But your thought structures, patterns, behaviors might hang on for a while.

Let's agree to throw these expectations aside and take a look together. Expectations, while fun dreaming, could have the effect of holding things back.

Let's just look.

What happens will happen. You'll see when you see. You'll know when you know.
:)

Let's start looking:

There is NO "you!"
- What comes up when you look at that?

What does "I" point to?
- In your direct experience... what is this "I" we talk about?
- Where can it be found?

jeronimo

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Usha
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Re: Guide Available - Let's Have a Look, Shall We?

Postby Usha » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:36 am

Thanks Jeronimo for your reply. I will try and answer all your questions now.
'who' will not feel afraid?
“I” that knows and feels and sees will not be afraid.
There is NO "you!"
- What comes up when you look at that?
Intellectual understanding of this statement is noticed. Makes sense intellectually, no resistance is felt to this understanding.
What does "I" point to?
- In your direct experience... what is this "I" we talk about?
- Where can it be found?
You mentioned “But your thought structures, patterns, behaviors might hang on for a while” . That’s the "I":)
it can’t be located in space but it seems to be the source of all thoughts, all fears , all likes and all dislikes.
Direct experience of I is when I find myself all alone in a dark room and a strong voice in my head says "Get the hell out of here" !!

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Re: Guide Available - Let's Have a Look, Shall We?

Postby jeronimo » Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:15 pm

Hi Usha

Thanks for playing along! From your answers, I think it's a good time to define our terms. When we talk about "I," we're talking about you, Usha. Or me, Jeronimo. We're not talking about life itself or consciousness or source ... or whatever term might be given to that concept.

This might be a sticky place for you, so it is good to clear it up quickly, before we get deeper. When we have an intellectual understanding of no-self, we can easily reorient our language to comply with our understanding/belief about something. It's a trick of thought to take ownership over the understanding.

It seems like you might be using "I" to refer to the "I AM" concept of being. Let me know if you are or not. If you are, let's put it aside and focus on you, Usha... the character in our play.
Intellectual understanding of this statement is noticed. Makes sense intellectually, no resistance is felt to this understanding.
Ok. Let's bring it deeper so that it goes beyond the intellect.
“I” that knows and feels and sees will not be afraid.
When you say "I" that knows and feels... are you talking about Usha? It's Usha who is afraid, yes or no?
it can’t be located in space
It can't be located in space. Can it be located at all?
but it seems to be the source of all thoughts, all fears, all likes and all dislikes.
Ah ... who is the source of all thoughts? Are you the source? Is Usha the source of thought, fear, like, dislike?

Take some time and look for the source of a thought. Let me know if you can find the source. Where does it come from? Is there someone or something controlling/causing your thoughts? Do you have control over your thoughts?

What are fears? Same thing here. Who or what is causing them?

If you can't locate the "I", then where is Usha?

Direct experience of I is when I find myself all alone in a dark room and a strong voice in my head says "Get the hell out of here" !!
Good. That's what we're talking about! That voice in your head. What is that?

How do you experience the voice in your head? How do you know it's talking to you?

Take a look and let me know what you see.

jeronimo

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Usha
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Re: Guide Available - Let's Have a Look, Shall We?

Postby Usha » Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:41 pm

Hello Jeronimo,

Thanks to you too for being patient and generous with your time :)
It seems like you might be using "I" to refer to the "I AM" concept of being. Let me know if you are or not. If you are, let's put it aside and focus on you, Usha... the character in our play.
I is Usha I am referring to and not I AM concept, though you are right about the complication of thought taking ownership of the intellectual understanding of I AM.
When you say "I" that knows and feels... are you talking about Usha? It's Usha who is afraid, yes or no?
Yes I mean Usha who becomes afraid.
It can't be located in space. Can it be located at all?
No, it can’t be located or pointed to …but it seems to me like electricity that you can’t locate or point to but it still makes the devices work!
Ah ... who is the source of all thoughts? Are you the source? Is Usha the source of thought, fear, like, dislike?Take some time and look for the source of a thought. Let me know if you can find the source. Where does it come from? Is there someone or something controlling/causing your thoughts? Do you have control over your thoughts?
When I look, I see that thoughts are a reaction to the situations that happen in my life and I control them in a sense, as I can fuel them by reacting to them emotionally or I can stop them by not paying any attention. So in short, my attention controls them to go on and on indefinitely or stop immediately.
What are fears? Same thing here. Who or what is causing them?
Thoughts are causing fears. But these thoughts are conditioned response to certain trigger factors like being physically alone or in darkness.
If you can't locate the "I", then where is Usha?
I see Usha in the thoughts only.. should I ask What is Usha?
That voice in your head. What is that?How do you experience the voice in your head? How do you know it's talking to you?Take a look and let me know what you see.
The voice in my head is the command that my body listens to involuntarily in case of fear and acts accordingly and by this body’s reaction I realize and know its talking to me.

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Re: Guide Available - Let's Have a Look, Shall We?

Postby jeronimo » Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:03 am

Wow … I just finished my reply to you and got logged off. Beware!

I’ll give it another go.

This is good … thanks for clearing up the ‘I’ reference. Words are so challenging. Restricting and full of possibilities. Wiley, I might say.
Yes I mean Usha who becomes afraid.
Is Usha afraid, or is it simply fear happening? Is there someone there to feel separate from the fear?
No, it can’t be located or pointed to …but it seems to me like electricity that you can’t locate or point to but it still makes the devices work!
Yes … seems so. But if you look only using your direct experience, i.e. senses, you really don’t know why that device works, do you? You just know it works. Electricity, in this case, is an idea. A thought about what might be making the device work.

Usha is the same thing. It’s an idea, a thought. An explanation for the phenomena of experience. A theory, really. Just like electricity. The idea of ‘electricity’ points to a phenomena that we don’t fully understand. But it works!

Same for you, me, and everyone else. We have an idea of a separate self. And it appears to be true. It works, so to speak. Until you really look at it and it becomes clear that it’s just an idea. There’s no one, separate, thing there. It's more like a phenomena.
When I look, I see that thoughts are a reaction to the situations that happen in my life
Yes, thoughts appear. Partially as a reaction to situations in life. But not specifically. You can sit and have all sorts of thoughts that aren't in response to a specific situation. But the thoughts appear.
I control them in a sense, as I can fuel them by reacting to them emotionally or I can stop them by not paying any attention. So in short, my attention controls them to go on and on indefinitely or stop immediately.
Do you control your thoughts… in a sense? You can either control them or you can’t.
Can you control your emotional reaction? If you look at that, I think you’ll find that emotional reactions happen instantly and automatically.

But don't take my word for it. Look.

Can you stop thoughts by not paying attention to them? When there is fear, can you just stop those thoughts?

Is it true that your attention makes them continue or stops them? Can you take a moment and try to make some specific thoughts happen? And then immediately stop them?

Try to stop a thought from coming. Could you go into a dark room and stop the fear thoughts from coming?

This is really important. Really look and see if you can control your thoughts. Is there anyone or anything really in control here? Where's the controller?

Or your attention. If you were going to sit and stare at a tree for an hour and only that tree… would other thoughts come in at some point and break that attention?

Try looking at something in front of you and pay attention only to that thing. Can you completely block out other thoughts arising on their own? Look.
Thoughts are causing fears. But these thoughts are conditioned response to certain trigger factors like being physically alone or in darkness.
That’s right. The trigger causes thought and emotion to happen simultaneously - and automatically. It’s this conditioning that we believe is us - or in your case, Usha.

Is there a ‘you’ that can control that automatic response?

What if you really looked when you were in fear? Is there a separate Usha who is afraid, or just fear?
I see Usha in the thoughts only.. should I ask What is Usha?
Yes, Usha is in thoughts only. And you just answered “what is Usha.” She is thoughts.
The voice in my head is the command that my body listens to involuntarily in case of fear and acts accordingly and by this body’s reaction I realize and know its talking to me.
Talking to whom?

The voice in your head is thoughts, yes? Usha is also thoughts. Can thoughts talk to other thoughts?

Or is it simply 'your' conditioned response to a dark room are thoughts, emotions, and physical processes that make you want to run away?

Take your time and have a look.

:)

Jeronimo

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Usha
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Re: Guide Available - Let's Have a Look, Shall We?

Postby Usha » Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:18 pm

Hi Jeronimo,

Thanks for the warning but I always type my response in a word document because if this happens to me then unlike you I would be so frustrated that all my answers will change due to that ;) Anyways I really can’t thank you enough for your response today! It really struck a cord at a deeper level..
Is Usha afraid, or is it simply fear happening? Is there someone there to feel separate from the fear?
NOOO its just my thinking that there is but in reality its only fear that is experienced at the time , at that same time I am not experiencing USHA!!
Yes, thoughts appear. Partially as a reaction to situations in life. But not specifically. You can sit and have all sorts of thoughts that aren't in response to a specific situation. But the thoughts appear.
True.
Do you control your thoughts… in a sense? You can either control them or you can’t.
Can you control your emotional reaction? If you look at that, I think you’ll find that emotional reactions happen instantly and automatically.
Wow! Didn't realize until now that emotional reaction to thoughts is automatic and not dependent on Me because however much I try, I can't change my reaction to certain issues.
This is really important. Really look and see if you can control your thoughts. Is there anyone or anything really in control here? Where's the controller?
No, I can't control what thoughts arise in the mind, there is no controller. Its all on auto pilot mode..thoughts , reactions, emotions.. its crazy!!!
It’s this conditioning that we believe is us - or in your case, Usha.


YES!! Its conditioning that I believe is ME because its so specific to myself.. What is this conditioning?? How did this come about then?? How do I get rid of it???

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Re: Guide Available - Let's Have a Look, Shall We?

Postby jeronimo » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:36 am

Hi Usha

Good. Chord struck. Deep Bow. Lots of exclamation points are a good sign!!
What is this conditioning?? How did this come about then?? How do I get rid of it???
Conditioning are all the attributes - ways of being, thinking, acting - that you identify as Usha. It came about through living life and believing in the separate self.

‘You’ get rid of it by seeing through the illusion - the belief - of a separate self. These identities, conditioned responses, etc … will no longer have anything to stick to. They will fall away.. some quickly, some over time. Your mileage may vary.

So… what is Usha? Can you please describe? What is the “I”?
No, I can't control what thoughts arise in the mind, there is no controller. Its all on auto pilot mode..thoughts , reactions, emotions.. its crazy!!!
Yes!! Well then, if there’s no controller, then who or what is reading and typing?

Take a close look.

Notice the fingers typing. Are you controlling them? Get up and walk around. Who’s controlling that? Notice how the thoughts relate to the action. How the "I" takes ownership immediately... but does the "I" actually make it happen?

Take some time. Really pick it apart. Test it everywhere. Look at everything you do. Notice your thoughts and notice your actions. You said that "thoughts, reactions, emotions are happening automatically."

What about the actions, movements... everything?
I am not experiencing USHA!!
What does it feel like to be liberated?

:)

Jeronimo

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Usha
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Re: Guide Available - Let's Have a Look, Shall We?

Postby Usha » Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:15 am

Hi Jeronimo!

Wow! I really get it now when you explain what is conditioning.. So its all sticking to the belief of USHA and there is no real existence of this as well! So basically USHA becomes completely non-existent even though this body-mind organism exists in this world physically!!
So… what is Usha? Can you please describe? What is the “I”?
Usha is a package of memories and conditioning which is all bundled in a single thought that pops up everyime this mind-body organism does anything ! Its not a REALITY at all and so none of the other labels I know are real like my brother, my mum.. they are all thoughts which I project on to other mind-body organisms…
Notice the fingers typing. Are you controlling them?
Typing is happening but after thoughts forming in my head and translated in to words , I can’t seem to pick this action apart and see how typing is happening and then thoughts taking ownership of it… if no thoughts happen , what do I write??? I am going to look in to all my actions for today and see how like thoughts, movements happen automatically…but atleast for this action of typing I can’t see how its happening automatically and its making me frustrated…if I don’t think then I am typing mumbo-jumbo which even I can’t understand !!
What about the actions, movements... everything? What does it feel like to be liberated?
I don’t feel that yet :( I am now understanding fear and thoughts and emotions but Actions still seem like they need a controller… I am trying to look in to all my actions and see if I can see what you are trying to say..

Thanks for your patience with me :)


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