Looking for a final push

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Raweir
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Looking for a final push

Postby Raweir » Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:00 pm

Hello,

I feel like I understand the message clearly, but I don't think I've got it, I feel like something has 'shifted' but don't think it's finished yet. If I was asked 'Have you seen through the illusion of a separate self?' I would say 'I don't know', because on the one hand I don't know what else there is to see, but on the other I don't think I have seen it. Is it meant to be a certain seeing? Can someone go through without knowing?

I look forward to being guided.

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Sarah7
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Re: Looking for a final push

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:14 pm

Hi Raweir
My name is Sarah and I would be happy to guide you.
Have you looked around the site? Do you know what we do here? Can you tell me a little about what brought you here?

What are your expectations? Are you searching for something? How will you know that you found it – for instance will it feel a certain way or you will change?
Looking forward to working with you.
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Raweir
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Re: Looking for a final push

Postby Raweir » Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:47 pm

Hello Sarah,

I am very familiar with your work, I've read the book twice, the quotes, looked through a few archived threads, watched some videos from Elena and others from here. I happened to find the site through a blog, but to expand, I have been 'seeking', as we call it, for over a year and I feel like this is the last step.

My expectations are that I will stop feeling like I am a person in control of his life and destiny, who can get it right or wrong. I am searching for the direct seeing of the absence of, and falling apart of the 'I' (if you could call that a 'search'). I have no idea if I will know, most people in the book seem to absolutely know when they see it so I guess it will be obvious. I assume that I will change a little, some personality traits may fall away or others grow, but again I don't really know.

Thanks for doing this. I look forward to our exchange xxx

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Sarah7
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Re: Looking for a final push

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:42 pm

Hi Raweir
Can I just check - is this what you want me to call you?
Just so that I know about any time differences, whereabouts do you live? I’m in England, and I usually post after work around now.

There are also a few standard ground rules before we start:

Please agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer and then we'll begin.

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:

1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

Looking forward to getting started!
Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Raweir
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Re: Looking for a final push

Postby Raweir » Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:11 pm

I don't mind but maybe it's better to use my name, Daniel.

I'm also in England.

I agree to all, ready to go.

xx

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Re: Looking for a final push

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:15 pm

Hi Daniel
Thanks - so lets get started!

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

There is absolutely no "you" in any way, shape, or form. No "you" thinking your thoughts. No "you" living your life. There never has been a "you" nor will there ever be. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?

You are what you are looking for. You ‘are’ what you seek. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does? In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now? What makes the "I" so permanent in our eyes?
Hugs Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Raweir
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Re: Looking for a final push

Postby Raweir » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:26 pm

Thanks for replying so quickly!
How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?
This is difficult, 'I' thoughts come and go, I wouldn't say it feels like anything. I do still have the feeling that I am separate from the world, but I can't say where the separation begins and ends so maybe that's just a thought. I do feel like there is something in here, but at the same time I can see that the 'I' is just the thoughts, 'I am a man' is a sentence, made up of symbols, and if I look to see what the 'I' refers to, there is nothing, it doesn't make sense because the 'I' is a symbol invented by humans which then comes in thoughts, if I never had seen the symbol 'I' I wouldn't be able to think it, it's borrowed, regurgitated. I'm not sure if this is all too much philosophising so, sorry if it is, I guess the main point is that I feel there is a separate me here, but I can't explain it without getting confused and going round in circles.

I also wanted to add that it feels more intense when it's being challenged, for example, feelings of inferiority.
does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?
No. If anything I would say it's part of the body.
Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control?Anything else?


My immediate reaction is that it's not made of anything. However I feel like I can decide, chose, act, do and control. When I try to see where this I is which can do those things, I can't find it, but it doesn't make sense because I really do feel like I can, for example, move my right hand on demand.
Is there a time when the self is not experienced?
Yes, sometimes I notice that for a little while, maybe 2 minutes, I wasn't experiencing a 'me', usually when attention is focused on something. I guess it's because there were no thoughts.
Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?
No it can't be found, which annoys me a bit because I feel like a self, but even then I see that 'I feel like a self' doesn't make sense either.
There is absolutely no "you" in any way, shape, or form. No "you" thinking your thoughts. No "you" living your life. There never has been a "you" nor will there ever be. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?
I felt excitement. I felt confusion and frustration because I've read these statements so many times but it doesn't feel like a reality.
You are what you are looking for. You ‘are’ what you seek. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?
I felt relaxation. I felt like everything will be ok. I also felt annoyance for not knowing how to take the statements deep inside.
Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?
No.
In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?
No, thoughts, bodily sensations, smells, sounds, tactile sensations and tastes all obviously come and go , visual perceptions seem to be more permanent but if the eyes close they disappear.
What makes the "I" so permanent in our eyes?
Because it covers it's tracks by claiming past experience, claims present experience, and claims that it will control future experiences.

Thanks for the pointers, I'm not sure if it's normal but I feel mentally drained after that. xx

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Sarah7
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Re: Looking for a final push

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:38 pm

Hi Daniel
Some fantastic looking and noticing here. I may have to poke about a bit to find out where you are – so forgive me if some of the exercises seem simple or something you have looked at before.
I do still have the feeling that I am separate from the world, but I can't say where the separation begins and ends so maybe that's just a thought.

Can you see this thought? Can you locate this feeling? Does the feeling come with the thought – or does the thought come after?
My immediate reaction is that it's not made of anything. However I feel like I can decide, chose, act, do and control. When I try to see where this I is which can do those things, I can't find it, but it doesn't make sense because I really do feel like I can, for example, move my right hand on demand.
and
Yes, sometimes I notice that for a little while, maybe 2 minutes, I wasn't experiencing a 'me', usually when attention is focused on something. I guess it's because there were no thoughts.
Where does the controller go then? Does al movement or deciding stop when this happens?

OK – lets look at labelling:
Id like you to just sit for 5-10 minutes with a paper and pen and I want you to record everything you notice from your ‘I’ list. I want you to look at what experiences come up, what actions you notice, what labels you see and WHERE they are applied, what feelings and emotions come up, and what sensations arise.
Don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - I am lying in bed, I am hearing the rain, I am writing this list, I can feel a sensation of relaxing etc….
Id like you then to repeat the exercise doing exactly the same as you did above, but this time I don’t want you to use the word ‘I’ or ‘me’ when you write the list of what you notice. Again don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - waiting for the next thought, writing, breathing, listening, relaxing sensation etc…
What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises? Which feels truer?

If you say ‘my money’ and compare it to ‘money’, ‘my relationship’ compared to ‘relationship’ or ‘my time’ compared to ‘time’ – does if feel different? Does one feel heavier than the other?
Thanks for the pointers, I'm not sure if it's normal but I feel mentally drained after that.

Possibly – I might have set you too much! Let me know if I do. OK
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Raweir
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Re: Looking for a final push

Postby Raweir » Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:03 pm

Can you see this thought? Can you locate this feeling? Does the feeling come with the thought – or does the thought come after?
Maybe 'feeling' was the wrong word. It's just because I'm believing the thoughts that say 'Of course I'm here and the world is there, how could it be otherwise', but I can't verify this belief in experience, although it feels as though visual experience flows into the eyes and that makes it seem as though 'I' am behind the eyes but that's simply how the seeing mechanism works. There is this expectation that I will feel like I am everything, the whole universe, when separation falls away, this isn't true is it?
Where does the controller go then? Does al movement or deciding stop when this happens?
There is no controller or decider, I can't find it. But it feels like I've just taken that on as a belief. How do I know this, is it a matter of looking over and over until it settles in? Although, in the book, Ilona/Elena say 'If I asked you if there is a unicorn in the room, you would know right away' so why don't I have this degree of certainty? Is thought tricking me again?
What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises? Which feels truer?
Absolutely the latter, no reflection needed. In the 'I' sentences, the 'I' just feels like superfluous information.
If you say ‘my money’ and compare it to ‘money’, ‘my relationship’ compared to ‘relationship’ or ‘my time’ compared to ‘time’ – does if feel different? Does one feel heavier than the other?
When I read 'heavier' I thought it was the perfect description for the 'my' phrases. The 'my' makes it feel like there is something invested in the thing. Also the 'my' adds a need to control the thing. I need to control my money and my time but I don't need to control money and time that isn't mine, and it doesn't matter what happens to money and time that isn't mine.
Possibly – I might have set you too much! Let me know if I do. OK
No, please, send me as much as you think is helpful.

Thanks again Sarah xx

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Sarah7
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Re: Looking for a final push

Postby Sarah7 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:45 pm

Hi Daniel
It's just because I'm believing the thoughts that say 'Of course I'm here and the world is there, how could it be otherwise', but I can't verify this belief in experience, although it feels as though visual experience flows into the eyes and that makes it seem as though 'I' am behind the eyes but that's simply how the seeing mechanism works. There is this expectation that I will feel like I am everything, the whole universe, when separation falls away, this isn't true is it?
What is belief? Is it thought upon thought? Have a look.
Also – the end sentence sounds like an expectation? Is it? If so can you see that that is also a thought? Can you see that? Is this based on what has been read? Is it experienced? If not – then that thought is saying ‘this is not right – I want this instead’. Can you see that? There is a thought that wants something other than what is. Now all that is required is to SEE this thought – nothing else. OK. Let me know what you find.
There is no controller or decider, I can't find it. But it feels like I've just taken that on as a belief. How do I know this, is it a matter of looking over and over until it settles in? Although, in the book, Ilona/Elena say 'If I asked you if there is a unicorn in the room, you would know right away' so why don't I have this degree of certainty? Is thought tricking me again?
No – expectations again. Put the book down and look yourself. Verify yourself! NEVER take mine or anyone elses word for anything – EVER!

Have you ever noticed sometimes that you arrive at a destination and don't really recall actually making the journey? It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It is only afterwards that the mind grabs hold of the experience and states 'I was driving the car' or, if questioned whilst driving (a present continuous activity), it would say 'I am driving the car'.
Whether your mind is totally concentrating on each gear shift that 'I' make, each look in the rear view mirror that 'I' makes, each twist of the steering wheel . . . or the entire journey is done automatically, the same result is achieved. Similarly when doing household tasks. Whether mind is involved or not, the task still gets accomplished.

Now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Raweir
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Re: Looking for a final push

Postby Raweir » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:02 pm

What is belief? Is it thought upon thought? Have a look.
Yes absolutely, I guess a belief is a thought that comes over and over again, in certain circumstances. 'Are you a christian?' and the thought comes, 'I am a christian' the belief exists only in that thought.
Also – the end sentence sounds like an expectation? Is it? If so can you see that that is also a thought? Can you see that? Is this based on what has been read? Is it experienced? If not – then that thought is saying ‘this is not right – I want this instead’. Can you see that? There is a thought that wants something other than what is.


Yes it was an expectation, and yes it's a belief about the future, if I'd never read about spirituality, I wouldn't have any expectation about 'non-separation'.
Now all that is required is to SEE this thought – nothing else. OK. Let me know what you find.
You say all that's required is to see this thought, but what's going to happen? I see them, understand (I think) what's going on and nothing changes, they keep coming and I keep seeing them.
Now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership?
I see this all the time, not necessarily with the 'Is' and 'Mes' (I'll pay more attention to that), but I catch thoughts judging people that I see, literally every person I see in the street thoughts will come describing their appearance, and they're horrible thoughts too. Yes it's like a commentary.

Some thoughts are ridiculous and there is no belief about their reality, but some seem to have some truth, thoughts about my character for example: 'No one likes me', 'I'm not funny'. I can't see how there can be this difference in thoughts.

But yes, I will look at labeling more.

Thanks xx

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Sarah7
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Re: Looking for a final push

Postby Sarah7 » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:24 pm

Hi Daniel
Yes absolutely, I guess a belief is a thought that comes over and over again, in certain circumstances.

Have you verified this? You can see that belief is thought?
You say all that's required is to see this thought, but what's going to happen? I see them, understand (I think) what's going on and nothing changes, they keep coming and I keep seeing them.
Question that thought of nothing changes – verify it – is it true? Sit for a few minutes and look – what exactly is staying the same?

Where do thoughts come from? Where do they go? Can you bring them, stop them or control them in any way? If so how? Can you create a thought – do you for instance think what you are going to think? Can thoughts think? Where is the controller of thought?

Are thoughts real? How do you know there are thoughts? Are the contents of thoughts real? Now look – what can thought actually do? What power do thoughts actually have?

When there is no thought, where are you?

Is a self necessary in order for the thought "I am crap" to arise? Is a self necessary in order for self-obsessive feelings to arise?

How do you know when you are lost in thoughts? What noticed you were lost in thoughts?
Some thoughts are ridiculous and there is no belief about their reality, but some seem to have some truth, thoughts about my character for example: 'No one likes me', 'I'm not funny'. I can't see how there can be this difference in thoughts.
OK – see the ‘me’ or the ‘I’m’. Where do they point? What exactly do they refer to? Every time you notice an ‘I’ thought – or something similar – look and see – where is this ‘I’? What is this ‘I’?

Take your time with these questions Daniel - just notice and let me know what you see. OK.
Please will you let me know if any emotions like fear, anger or anxiety show up, if they do?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Raweir
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Re: Looking for a final push

Postby Raweir » Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:46 pm

Just checking in. I don't have time to investigate and reply today but I read through and will look at every thought I notice between now and when I reply, looking for the 'I' to which they seem to point.

Looking forward to looking xxx

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Sarah7
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Re: Looking for a final push

Postby Sarah7 » Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:51 pm

Fine Daniel. No worries. Thanks for letting me know.
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Raweir
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Re: Looking for a final push

Postby Raweir » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:54 am

Have you verified this? You can see that belief is thought?
Well I can see that beliefs are entirely contained in thoughts, there is nothing in experience where beliefs exist except from within thoughts.
Question that thought of nothing changes – verify it – is it true? Sit for a few minutes and look – what exactly is staying the same?
Well it seems to be random whether the thought comes and is noticed as just a thought, or I get caught up in believing the thought. But even then, I don't know how 'I' can get caught up, since the 'I' is a thought itself, so the difference must be that when I don't notice the thought as just a thought, more thoughts come to verify the first thought, but when the thought is noticed, the verifying thoughts don't come. But again I'm confused, because why shouldn't the verifying thoughts still come, what's stopping them?
Where do thoughts come from? Where do they go? Can you bring them, stop them or control them in any way? If so how? Can you create a thought – do you for instance think what you are going to think? Can thoughts think? Where is the controller of thought?
Thoughts appear and disappear but they don't literally come and go because there is nowhere for them to come from or go to. Thoughts are uncontrolled, any assumed control must be a thought itself. Thoughts can't think because thoughts are thinking itself.
Are thoughts real? How do you know there are thoughts? Are the contents of thoughts real? Now look – what can thought actually do? What power do thoughts actually have?
Thoughts are real as part of experience. I know there are thoughts because I experience them. Ultimately, the contents of thought aren't real because they are just words and words aren't real. I don't think thought actually does things, the thought could come 'I'm going to walk to the shop', and then I walk to the shop, and it appears that the thought made me walk to the shop but I don't think that's true.
When there is no thought, where are you?
'You'/'I' is a thought, so without thought, 'I' isn't.
Is a self necessary in order for the thought "I am crap" to arise? Is a self necessary in order for self-obsessive feelings to arise?
No.
How do you know when you are lost in thoughts? What noticed you were lost in thoughts?
I guess I only know this retrospectively. I could be daydreaming, and then all of a sudden realise I have been walking along daydreaming for five minutes, but I don't know how this is realised or what realised it, it seems to be just a spontaneous 'awakening'.
OK – see the ‘me’ or the ‘I’m’. Where do they point? What exactly do they refer to? Every time you notice an ‘I’ thought – or something similar – look and see – where is this ‘I’? What is this ‘I’?
Yes I'll do this every chance I get, sometimes I close my eyes and look for 'me' and there is nothing there. Is this helpful, to look like that, or just when the thoughts come?

xxx


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