Looking for guide :)

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Pete777
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Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:53 pm

Background
I am a 22 year old guy, and have been reading about “awakening” and “letting go” since January this year. This search has been a result of being heavily dominated by negative thoughts and suppressed emotions.

Two weeks ago I stumbled over the book “Gateless gatecrashers” and read it. I have also browsed through most of the app and read some threads on the forum. I’ve been inquiring since 21st of august, and done exercises presented here.

Expectations
Not being identified with a separate self – inner state not dependent on external performance.

Experiences: Glimpses of “I am” being a label – appearing to nothing.

• Feeling of exhilaration – and a feeling of electricity or something in the body
o many times during the first weekend. not sleeping until late in the night
o heart beating.
• Warm-fuzzy feeling and happiness for twenty minutes
o One time
• Tingling in the mind/pressure going on for hours.
o Sometimes looking for a rubber band around my skull that isn’t there.
• “Centrifuged” consciousness
o One time. For a few seconds– uncomfortable and disorientating. Happened in a state close to sleep.
o Have had two similar experiences earlier this year, appearing when I’ve “practiced” “letting go” in a state close to sleep.
• Last week: a calm feeling, not too stressed about “getting” it anymore.
o Constant “wet feeling” in the forehead
• I recognize why the term “awakening” fits, because the times the inner commentary has been noticed as thoughts, the feeling is the same as when I have catched myself believing a dream right before falling to sleep.

Identification
• When observing thoughts: no thinker of thoughts seen
• But when off guard:
o Identification as the thinker – some of the thoughts
o Believing thoughts
o Especially when I contract “speaking muscles”
 Also when trying to look
• When observing intention: no doer is seen
o When off guard: identification as the doer
o f. ex the one that tries to suppress ”wrong” thoughts


Problem with looking:
First I intend to look. When the thought “I” appear, I may react something like “yes, I got you”. This reaction itself is not viewed as just another thought. Instead there is identification with it. I’ve had two “theories” on the cause for this. 1) When looking, I do it with an agenda to get or avoid something. This agenda blocks honest looking. I then try to not have an agenda, which is still an agenda. When I can’t get out of this catch 22, I beat my self up until I am in a state of apathy. And then the motivation fades. 2) Having a blindspot to the doer/commentator identification. Never recognizing the moment identification happens.

Possible solutions:
1) Top-down perspective
Instead of looking from a place of lack, look from a place of wholeness/self-acceptance. This way one can step back from identification and relax behind thoughts in open receptivity without agenda. Love = openness.

2) Remove the blindspot to identification with the doer/commentator:
Making it habitual to look for the moment identification happens, by retrospecting each action. And then retrospect the retrospection itself. And instead of beating myself up, send self-acceptance.


Looking for a guide that is confident in this process. Will be very grateful :)

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:32 pm

Hi Pete777 and welcome to LU. Thank you for your introduction.
I'll be happy to be your guide if that is ok with you.
Would you mind if we go for a fresh start?
Can you have a look right now and tell me where is this I that you talk about?
Other than a thought about its existence, where in reality can you find this you?

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:52 pm

I'll be happy to be your guide if that is ok with you.
Sure:)

Can you have a look right now and tell me where is this I that you talk about?
Other than a thought about its existence, where in reality can you find this you?
1st session
When looking now there are some pressure/sensations, some breathing happening, some typing happening, some hearing happening, some tasting happening, some seeing happening, some beating pulsations, a thought that says “look good in all senses”, and a thought/feeling that implies it happens to “me”, or that I am doing the looking. This is believed, and the evidence is partly some sensations in the head-area. It is not perceived as just any other thought. Other thoughts follow: “it is ridiculous to deny this”, “I won’t be found in experience because I am the immaterial soul”.

Some moments after, the “I” appear again, after there has been a dedication to think it (as opposed to the “I” arising off-guard). “I” is then viewed as a thought. There is also a of trust in this seeing: the desire for breaking the illusion might lead to delusion. Furthermore there is a belief that: “this can’t be it – nothing special has happened”. Some minutes after there are some contractions in the stomach when “I” is perceived as just a thought. Then there is a belief that this might just be placebo – which is followed by the thought “ah – “I” believe --> identification --> the shift hasn’t happened.”

2nd session
I am doing the exercise. On further inspection “I” just points to some sensations around the throat and head. No I is found in direct experience – only sensations and thoughst about it. Then there is a belief that denying the identification is just fooling myself, considering the wish for “liberation” to happen, and the fact that identification happens so often. Then a thought comes and says that this too is just thoughts, and that the shift will not be so noticeable.


There is insecurity about using the word "I" without "" in this message. There is an inclination to do it, but as I anticipate that you will question who this "I" is I feel like using verbs only. There is also the view that I is a label - not the actual doer.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:33 pm

Thank you for looking.
You're very good at describing what is being experienced.

Reading your words it seems to me that you only believe in the existence of a separate you when identification with the story of you happens. And I have the impression that when you look you already can see that the I only exists as a thought. Am I right or is this only my perception? When looking happens, can you see there is no you here and now?

Are you expecting "selfing" to stop? Selfing being the identification with me, me, me, I, I, I...

How would this shift your expecting look like?
If you look right now and can see there is no you - what needs to shift? What should be different than it is right now? What kind of proof do you need?
There is insecurity about using the word "I" without "" in this message. There is an inclination to do it, but as I anticipate that you will question who this "I" is I feel like using verbs only. There is also the view that I is a label - not the actual doer.
Feel free to talk normally. Looking forward for your answers!

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:21 am

Reading your words it seems to me that you only believe in the existence of a separate you when identification with the story of you happens. And I have the impression that when you look you already can see that the I only exists as a thought. Am I right or is this only my perception? When looking happens, can you see there is no you here and now?
At least if I’m using the categories sense+thought/emotions to describe DE. The “I”-feeling is seen as thoughts + sensations. But nothing seems to have changed, hence the belief that looking hasn’t been open or deep enough, or that the identification is “suppressed”. If I do a test, and say to myself: “I am still me” there is a belief that I came up with that task/sentence. When retrospecting, my view changes. The sentence is seen as just a thought. At this point I’m unsure if the retrospecting is rationalisation or seeing.
Are you expecting "selfing" to stop? Selfing being the identification with me, me, me, I, I, I...

Yes, I guess I expect “selfing” to stop. At least knowing that selfing is not real while it happens. And at least in periods of time that I’m by my self and not in the heat of action.
How would this shift your expecting look like?
It would look like a deep knowing, no doubt. And that the inner commentator would not be believed to be my world, but just thoughts. The commentary is negative a lot of the time. Edit: this has actually been a lot easier today as the negative thoughts have been allowed to a greater degree, instead of identifying with them.
If you look right now and can see there is no you - what needs to shift? What should be different than it is right now? What kind of proof do you need?
Hmm.. I',m not sure if I really see that it's no me. See the above.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:30 pm

Selfing, getting lost in stories and "negative" thoughts still happen here, more than one year after crossing the Gate :) When identification cools down I can see them for what they are: selfing, getting lost in stories and "negative" thoughts, just happening. The more looking happens the clear it gets, it seems. But that is just my story... it can be different with you. Anyway, maybe this can be helpfull:

http://liberationunleashed.com/faqs/lib ... ed-is-not/

Liberation Unleashed is not…
Throughout the years our many guides have discovered that one of the major obstacles to the direct, clear seeing of what is already magnificently the case is a thick layer of expectations and narrative about a self’s journey towards enlightenment, built up by years and years of seeking. Getting these expectations out in the open and out of the way is an important first step. Below is a list explaining what the LU process is not:

This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This isn’t a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not a self improvement program.

It would look like a deep knowing, no doubt. And that the inner commentator would not be believed to be my world, but just thoughts. The commentary is negative a lot of the time. Edit: this has actually been a lot easier today as the negative thoughts have been allowed to a greater degree, instead of identifying with them.
And if it's not a deep knowing? Just a seeing - moment to moment - that what is happening is happening without an entity, a you?

For example, when the body moves, what causes the movement? What can you see if you try to find a you inside the body, moving the body?

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:02 pm

Thank you for your reply.
Below is a list explaining what the LU process is not:
this list is helpfull. I see I was expecting some of those things, f. ex " This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.". But at the same time it seems I have problems putting all those expectations away - considering what I've read others experience.
And if it's not a deep knowing? Just a seeing - moment to moment - that what is happening is happening without an entity, a you?
I feel resistance towards your words. It seems to me they imply that the shift has already happened. I guess your words are only natural considering what I've written. I can feel a wish for you to view my situation as the shift has not already happened, and point me to some more specific looking.

In the moment I feel that there is a me. I suspect it is because I have not seen through the inner commentary. Also there are some specific head-sensations that is taken as evidence. Even though there's nothing behind it while I look. I guess I identify as the looker. Confused. There is also some beliefs that as I've not seen it until now, it won't be easy for it to happen later. At least not without understanding why it hasn't happened yet, and how to be able to look with honesty.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:14 pm

this list is helpfull. I see I was expecting some of those things, f. ex " This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.". But at the same time it seems I have problems putting all those expectations away - considering what I've read others experience.
Oh, yes. And your experience is and will be unique. If you keep expecting your experience to match others experience there is an immense probability that you will always think you are lacking something. And that will keep you from seeing what is happening here-now. And here-now is the only place the illusion can be seen through and changes in perception can happen.

Can you put your expectations to the side, drop the way you think this should be? Reality tends to work in a different way than we think it should, anyway :)
I feel resistance towards your words. It seems to me they imply that the shift has already happened. I guess your words are only natural considering what I've written. I can feel a wish for you to view my situation as the shift has not already happened, and point me to some more specific looking.
You will know when it happens. What I think doesn't matter. It's my pleasure to point you to more specific looking.
I guess I identify as the looker.
Let's start investigating where a self-entity might be by looking at sense arisings and the self as experiencer:

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?

If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?

Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:52 pm

will look into this.

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:56 pm

still looking

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:21 pm

And what is being seen? Please share. There are no right or wrong answers. Seriously! Only answers that come from seeing and answers that come from thinking.

Looking is seeing what doesn't change when thinking changes, being aware what is happening in your direct, first-hand, now experience.

It doesn't take lots of time, only if you are thinking about what is going on. Don't think, look instead and describe what you see happening.

Just do one question at a time, if that's easier.

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:31 pm

Can you put your expectations to the side, drop the way you think this should be? Reality tends to work in a different way than we think it should, anyway :)


Yes, in the moment I feel like I can do this.
When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing? If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?

1st session
First I feel like I am watching. Sometimes it feels like “I” am is just a thought. I then looked into where the boundary between the looker and the seen is. I realized that there was no boundary as “I am” was just a thought. However I didn’t feel anything when this thought appeared, so I’m unsure if it really is seen, or if it’s just understood. Then I saw that this insecurity stems from an expectation of something happening. When the expectation is allowed to float away I still feel kind of a pressure in the head/throat. There is an expectation for this to go away too if seeing happens. When this is accepted there is only now. After some time the dissatisfaction is back.


2nd session
Looking. There is seeing, and there is a strong feeling of “I am the seer”. Continuing to pay attention to the environment while walking outside. For quite a while my mind goes on and on: “look good, don’t get stuck in thoughts, soon you will see that there is no looker”. After some time I felt more present, and as thoughts faded for some time, only looking was happening. The thoughts came back however, and everything went back to what it was like initially.


3rd session. The same seems to happen with hearing. At first I try to hear, I try to not stay in the mind, etc. After some time there is only hearing happening (along with other sensations). Then the "I" arises again.
Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.
– will look in to the other senses in the coming days.

When considering to not write in personal form (my mind, etc.) there is resistance. I guess there is some security in using the “I” when speaking, thinking and experiencing.

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:28 pm

Today: Was in a relaxed mood, so the looking was easier. Seeing happens. Hearing happens. Feeling happens. Tasting happens. Breathing happens. And then there’s “I” that claims the experience. Don’t know of this really is seen once and for all. When out of the relaxed mode the claiming of the experience is back as strong as usual.

On a separate note I believe that I am doing things as long as I’m not on auto-pilot.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:38 pm

Thank you for your answers!
Please tell me if you think I need to go slower or if you have doubts about my questions.
When out of the relaxed mode the claiming of the experience is back as strong as usual.
In your last post you're talking about two kinds of experiences: "the relaxed mode" and "the claiming of the experience".

- Can you really see 2 or more kind of experiences going on or experience is a continuous, seamless flow of perceptions? Is experience separated in any way? What makes one experience seem separated from the other?

- Are these changes in the way reality is perceived controlled by a you? Can you enter one mode or the other at will?

- Are you saying that in "the relaxed mode" there isn't a self present and in "the claiming of the experience" there is a self present? Or non-self and self are just concepts/thoughts that are used to explain what is believed to be happening in both cases? Can you really see a non self or a self even when thinking that these words point to something that exists?

- Do you think one of these modes is better, more spiritual than the other? If yes, which one and why?
On a separate note I believe that I am doing things as long as I’m not on auto-pilot.
Can you give me an example or two - from your experience - of something that makes you believe there is a doer, a self-pilot present?

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:02 pm

In your last post you're talking about two kinds of experiences: "the relaxed mode" and "the claiming of the experience".

Can you really see 2 or more kind of experiences going on or experience is a continuous, seamless flow of perceptions?
Hmm. Not really sure if this is a “problem” of words or a real “problem”.
Mind answer:
One can be stressed one day and relaxed the other. So I believe that there is possible to be in different states during experience. My answer is therefore that the content of experience may differ. But everything is part of experience.

Answer from direct experience:
Experience is not recognized to be “staccato”, it is seamless. However: when looking to see if there is a looker in DE, the looker seems to be more apparent and clinging if I am stressed/there is stress.
Is experience separated in any way? What makes one experience seem separated from the other?
What makes it seem separated: The content of the experience differs. And then thoughts label experience as different. But everything is part of experience.

- Are these changes in the way reality is perceived controlled by a you? Can you enter one mode or the other at will?
No, at least not directly. It seems to happen if I am tired in the evening or after a workout. Indirectly the “relaxation response” can be elicited by meditation. So if I presume that I can do conscious actions it can be entered at will. See the last questions for looking into if this conscious choice really is done by me.
- Are you saying that in "the relaxed mode" there isn't a self present and in "the claiming of the experience" there is a self present? Or non-self and self are just concepts/thoughts that are used to explain what is believed to be happening in both cases?
Hmm I tried not to use the word “self” as I don’t believe in the self. I’d rather put it like this: the feeling/thought of self is stronger in the stressed mode. I speculate it is because there are more thoughts in that state.
Can you really see a non self or a self even when thinking that these words point to something that exists?
I can not see a self. I can just feel a strong belief in the self xD [nb. This may seem to contradict what I’ve written above – what I mean, however, is that knowledge-wise I don’t believe in it, but feelings-wise I believe in it.]
- Do you think one of these modes is better, more spiritual than the other? If yes, which one and why?
In a way I think the relaxed state is more comfortable to be in, and more efficient for learning.
Regarding the spirituality: I only care about what works – that is, how to be free from anxiety/shame/stress.
Can you give me an example or two - from your experience - of something that makes you believe there is a doer, a self-pilot present?
1) When I say “I am here” there is a strong feeling/belief for it to be true.

2) When trying to see what happens when I make a choice, I notice that the feeling/intention to make one of the choices just arises (chose banana over another fruit). The choice is made in an unknown place (subconsciously)


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