I would appreciate a guide!

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gabrielle23
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I would appreciate a guide!

Postby gabrielle23 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:54 pm

Hello everyone,

My name is Gabrielle. I have read Gateless Gatecrashers and a few times while reading the book I thought that I had crossed the gate because it suddenly seemed so clear to me and I felt a great amount of joy. But it was never permanent and doubts kept coming up so I would love to see it for once and for all now.

Previously I was very into the Law of Attraction after reading The Secret, and I have seen a lot of synchronicities. But I realized more and more how impossible thoughts were to control, so I was lead to non duality teachings, which seemed very logical and truthful to me.

I would especially like Elena or Ilona as a guide, but I would also be happy with any other guide!

Many thanks,

Gabrielle

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Josephkoudelka
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Re: I would appreciate a guide!

Postby Josephkoudelka » Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:37 pm

Hi Gabrielle. I can guide you if you like. Could you tell me a bit more about your journey and how you arrived here?

Best,

Joseph

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gabrielle23
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Re: I would appreciate a guide!

Postby gabrielle23 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:56 pm

Hi Joseph,

Thank you so much for your offer! I will tell you about my journey.

It has not been a long one to be honest. As I mentioned before, I read the book 'The Secret' and I started 'practicing' the law of attraction. It also led me to the teachings of Abraham Hicks, Wayne Dyer etc. And I had some successes with it. After a while I started to realized that nothing could truly make me happy. I felt like I was lying to myself by always 'forcing' myself to be happy and think good thoughts to manifest good results.

This was how I was led to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle which touched me deeply and still do. However, I find it extremely difficult to stay present and I don't like the way that Tolle makes it seem like the ego is one giant monster. I came across Liberation Unleashed about two months ago and other non duality teachers like Paul Smit and Lisa Cairns. I am not expecting a huge enlightenment experience like Tolle had where he felt a sort of high for a year, but more: clarity about how life works and who I am, peace with what is and current thoughts and emotions, a process of less and less identification with the ego and more enjoying and controlling. I hope that this is realistic!

Thanks again,

Gabrielle

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Josephkoudelka
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Re: I would appreciate a guide!

Postby Josephkoudelka » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:44 pm

It is interesting to see your progression toward understanding your self and the world Gabrielle. I like Lisa Cairns and enjoy her videos, I am not familiar with Paul Smit. We can explore expectations a bit more later. First, I have a few things I would like you to review and confirm you have seen. The guidelines below require your agreement for us to continue. Take your time and respond when you have completed.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

http://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c

Guidelines for guiding process:

1. You agree to post at least once a day.

2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to

3. Responses require your utmost honesty

4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-
winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.

5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660


Best,

Joseph

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gabrielle23
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Re: I would appreciate a guide!

Postby gabrielle23 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:00 pm

I had gone through the links above already last night, and I agree with the guidelines.

So let's get started!

Gabrielle

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Josephkoudelka
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Re: I would appreciate a guide!

Postby Josephkoudelka » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:43 pm

Ok!
I am not expecting a huge enlightenment experience like Tolle had where he felt a sort of high for a year, but more: clarity about how life works and who I am, peace with what is and current thoughts and emotions, a process of less and less identification with the ego and more enjoying and controlling. I hope that this is realistic!
I don't know how all of this, life, works. As no self, it is recognized, that whatever arises now, is beyond any separate selfs attempt to control it. Even the attempt to control is devoid of a self.

For clarity, when I use the words - I and you, I am using them in the conventional way.

If a self is real, if it really exists, it should be findable in our direct experience. There seem to be many candidates that stand out as proof of a self, the two most prominent being a body and mind. The world, or environment of the present moment, seems to stand in contrast to the body and mind. However, if this is true, it should be relatively easy to present these assumed facts utilizing our five senses. Do you agree that one or more of our five senses should be able to detect the self?

Also, I use the subject, object, action triad as a means for guiding. Each of the five senses has their own action; seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling. There is also another triad that is beyond any of the five senses but encompass them all, which is knower, knowing known, or aware-er, awaring, awared. This allows us to also point to thought as an object of awareness.

At some time during our present existence, we began to interpret thought as a separate and true reflection of reality, and thus, we identified with thoughts as our self. Thoughts appear, they are known, but are they true? If they are, they should be concretely grounded in our direct experience. That is what you and I are going to explore here, Gabrielle.

Do you know a thought or does a thought know you?

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gabrielle23
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Re: I would appreciate a guide!

Postby gabrielle23 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:01 pm

The world, or environment of the present moment, seems to stand in contrast to the body and mind. However, if this is true, it should be relatively easy to present these assumed facts utilizing our five senses. Do you agree that one or more of our five senses should be able to detect the self?
I believe that you are asking me if, if there exists a separate, CONTROLLING, entity which we call the 'self' that is opposed to the rest of the world, should it be perceivable with at least one of the five senses? I would agree that if there is something that is in control, we should be able to find it somehow.

But I don't know if this detecting could happen by one of the five senses. I could only imagine finding a self by a looking that goes further than just plain seeing with the eyes. I can't suddenly perceive a controller of experience by hearing or smelling.
If they are, they should be concretely grounded in our direct experience.
Do you mean that we can only be sure that thoughts are true if we are looking at the direct proof this present moment? I would definitely agree with that.
. Do you know a thought or does a thought know you?
I find this question a bit confusing. There is awareness of thoughts. 'Does a thought know you?' I don't really understand the question. It seems that there are thoughts arising and that these thoughts create the idea that there is a self in control. However, there is still doubt that there is no control, and strong identification with these thoughts which make it seem true.

All the best,

Gabrielle

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Josephkoudelka
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Re: I would appreciate a guide!

Postby Josephkoudelka » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:01 am

I believe that you are asking me if, if there exists a separate, CONTROLLING, entity which we call the 'self' that is opposed to the rest of the world, should it be perceivable with at least one of the five senses? I would agree that if there is something that is in control, we should be able to find it somehow.
When I refer to the "self", I am speaking of the individual "I" that everyone believes they are. A walking, talking, thinking body\mind complex moving through the world as a separate self. We should be able to find this self as something concretely objectifiable outside of thought.
But I don't know if this detecting could happen by one of the five senses. I could only imagine finding a self by a looking that goes further than just plain seeing with the eyes. I can't suddenly perceive a controller of experience by hearing or smelling.
If the five senses can't detect it, where is it? I am here to guide you toward your own realization of no self. I am already sure that such an entity is unfindable. Further, during the course of this investigation we will examine if a self can be found inside a thought.
Do you mean that we can only be sure that thoughts are true if we are looking at the direct proof this present moment? I would definitely agree with that.
Yes. We will look and see if we can prove existence in the past or future... or in any thing.
Do you know a thought or does a thought know you?
I find this question a bit confusing. There is awareness of thoughts. 'Does a thought know you?' I don't really understand the question. It seems that there are thoughts arising and that these thoughts create the idea that there is a self in control. However, there is still doubt that there is no control, and strong identification with these thoughts which make it seem true.
The question is asked from the standpoint of awareness. Another way to ask, "As awareness, do you know thoughts? Can thoughts be aware of you, awareness? Are thoughts aware of other thoughts? The whole notion of a self that is making choices and doing things hinges on the belief that we are our thoughts.

You had mentioned that you desired, " ...peace with what is and current thoughts and emotions, a process of less and less identification with the ego and more enjoying and controlling." Identification is the belief in our habitual thought pattern. Direct Pointing looks at our direct experience for proof of self.

In this moment know, where do you perceive that you begin and end? Is there a boundary where you end and everything else begins?

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gabrielle23
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Re: I would appreciate a guide!

Postby gabrielle23 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:00 am

Thanks for your answer!
When I refer to the "self", I am speaking of the individual "I" that everyone believes they are. A walking, talking, thinking body\mind complex moving through the world as a separate self. We should be able to find this self as something concretely objectifiable outside of thought.
Yep, it seems that a self should be able to be found. The only candidates I still have a bit of 'hope' for that they are my self are the ability to create some thoughts (not all, because I am sure the mind can't be controlled) and the one who is paying attention to thoughts and feelings.
If the five senses can't detect it, where is it? I am here to guide you toward your own realization of no self. I am already sure that such an entity is unfindable. Further, during the course of this investigation we will examine if a self can be found inside a thought.
Before you have mentioned the five senses, and a 'sense' that goes beyond it: awareness. Should a self be looked for through that?
You had mentioned that you desired, " ...peace with what is and current thoughts and emotions, a process of less and less identification with the ego and more enjoying and controlling."
Btw, I realized I forgot to add the word 'less'! I wanted to write that I desired for less controlling, or: knowing that there is no control so that there won't be so much energy wasted on trying to control.
The question is asked from the standpoint of awareness. Another way to ask, "As awareness, do you know thoughts? Can thoughts be aware of you, awareness? Are thoughts aware of other thoughts? The whole notion of a self that is making choices and doing things hinges on the belief that we are our thoughts.

You had mentioned that you desired, " ...peace with what is and current thoughts and emotions, a process of less and less identification with the ego and more enjoying and controlling." Identification is the belief in our habitual thought pattern. Direct Pointing looks at our direct experience for proof of self.

In this moment know, where do you perceive that you begin and end? Is there a boundary where you end and everything else begins?
I have to go to work now, and I don't have a clear answer yet, so I will get to it later today!

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Re: I would appreciate a guide!

Postby gabrielle23 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:42 pm

The question is asked from the standpoint of awareness. Another way to ask, "As awareness, do you know thoughts? Can thoughts be aware of you, awareness? Are thoughts aware of other thoughts? The whole notion of a self that is making choices and doing things hinges on the belief that we are our though
It seems to me that a thought itself just IS and the thought itself cannot perform actions itself. This would lead to the conclusion that a thought is not able to be aware of awareness.
Awareness seems to know thoughts. After awareness of a thought occured it is known that the thought existed and passed by.
In this moment know, where do you perceive that you begin and end? Is there a boundary where you end and everything else begins?
In this moment I perceive that 'I' begin and end where my body begins and ends. Because the sensations and feelings are felt in this body, the thoughts are witnessed in this body. And with this 'I' I mean the total experience that is happening. I couldn't actually point to a controlling separate 'I' that begins and ends somewhere.

Hope this makes sense!

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Josephkoudelka
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Re: I would appreciate a guide!

Postby Josephkoudelka » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:19 pm

I realized I forgot to add the word 'less'! I wanted to write that I desired for less controlling, or: knowing that there is no control so that there won't be so much energy wasted on trying to control.
I wondered about that. :) Seeing no self includes seeing no doer. No doer = no control.
Before you have mentioned the five senses, and a 'sense' that goes beyond it: awareness. Should a self be looked for through that?
Awareness is that which knows everything else automatically, in the present moment. EVERYTHING. Awareness knows thoughts, emotions, sensations, and all subtle aspects of the mind. It also knows everything the mind believes is external to it. It knows seeing, hearing, tasting, touching and smelling. Ultimately, Awareness is the final subject, which the mind cannot know as a form or object. Awareness Is.
Awareness seems to know thoughts. After awareness of a thought occured it is known that the thought existed and passed by.
This is where the fun begins. Isn't it just another known thought making the claim a prior thought existed and passed by. Be still and look. Aren't thoughts automatically known as they arise? Then another thought may arise, claiming, I was thinking such and such? Further, isn't any memory just another thought actually?
In this moment I perceive that 'I' begin and end where my body begins and ends. Because the sensations and feelings are felt in this body, the thoughts are witnessed in this body. And with this 'I' I mean the total experience that is happening. I couldn't actually point to a controlling separate 'I' that begins and ends somewhere.
Yes. This statement contains both the illusion, and reality as it is. I can't ever point to a separate "I" that begins and ends somewhere in direct experience(DE). It is only a thought claim that the body begins and end here at a particular boundary. In DE of any of the five senses, a boundary is never found. We will begin this exploration by looking at hearing.

Find a bell, or even a timer sound on your phone. Strike the bell, or allow timer tone to go off. As the silent presence, awareness, how far away or close is the sound? Disregard the claims of any thought. Focus on the actual experience.

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gabrielle23
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Re: I would appreciate a guide!

Postby gabrielle23 » Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:41 pm

Find a bell, or even a timer sound on your phone. Strike the bell, or allow timer tone to go off. As the silent presence, awareness, how far away or close is the sound? Disregard the claims of any thought. Focus on the actual experience.
I didn't find this exercise easy. I have always been the kind of person that aims to 'achieve' high and I want to be 'good' at this exercise. And these kind of exercises are hard because I don't know which kind of answers are the 'right' ones, the one my guide wants, if you know what I mean.

My mind definitely found it confusing to give an answer. Because an answer had to be given, how far or how close is the sound? I found it hard to understand how awareness could give answer to a question. But I did the exercise a few times during the day.

Thoughts like 'am I doing this correctly', 'how can I tell how much distance there was' kept arising. It got me wondering if it is also just a thought: the distance between me and a sound. But it also seems like that the distance between 'me' and a sound isn't just a thought but also sense.

Thank you so much for everything Joseph! I hope that what I'm saying makes a bit of sense.

In what time zone are you btw?

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Re: I would appreciate a guide!

Postby Josephkoudelka » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:24 pm

I didn't find this exercise easy. I have always been the kind of person that aims to 'achieve' high and I want to be 'good' at this exercise. And these kind of exercises are hard because I don't know which kind of answers are the 'right' ones, the one my guide wants, if you know what I mean.
Whatever you discover is the 'right' answer. The whole process is simply looking directly at our experience. At first, as you are experiencing right now Gabrielle, there may be a lot going on besides 'just listening'. It is ok. Your honest answers, regarding the way it is, provides clues for further questions and pointers.
My mind definitely found it confusing to give an answer. Because an answer had to be given, how far or how close is the sound? I found it hard to understand how awareness could give answer to a question. But I did the exercise a few times during the day.
Try this. Close your eyes and take a couple of deep breaths, then relax into just being aware of your out breath. After a few minutes, when you have relaxed and settled down, begin listening to the sounds of your environment. Notice that sound is always present. it's not like you have to turn on hearing. Thoughts about the sounds and where they are, what they are, will arise also. Disregard and return simply to hearing. Do you have to manage hearing? Or is hearing happening?
It got me wondering if it is also just a thought: the distance between me and a sound. But it also seems like that the distance between 'me' and a sound isn't just a thought but also sense.
Check this out. Is the distance between awareness and any sound an actual fact? Or is it a thought that separates 'me' from a sound? This can be very subtle at first. Once discursive thinking is identified with, a thought naturally follows another thought, like when you stated, " But it also seems like that the distance between 'me' and a sound isn't just a thought but also sense." In my own exploration, I, awareness, can never find a 'me' outside of a thought.

I am in the central time zone and am usually available to respond between the hours of 6am to 8pm.

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gabrielle23
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Re: I would appreciate a guide!

Postby gabrielle23 » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:10 am

I feel like I need a bit more time with this! I am going to have a busy day at work, so I will get to it end of the afternoon or tonight.

Btw, I am in the Central European Time Zone.

Grateful as always,

Gabrielle

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Josephkoudelka
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Re: I would appreciate a guide!

Postby Josephkoudelka » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:48 pm

Yes, spend some time with this exercise. There is a still point from which all thought, sensation, and emotion is known. Become familiar with it. That is the purpose of the breath relaxation. Once settled down, no need to follow out breath, relax into natural spontaneous awareness that is ever present.

I am at GMT -5, Ames, Iowa, US. There is a seven hour time difference between us.

Joseph ♥


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