Seen through the illusion but...

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Job
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Seen through the illusion but...

Postby Job » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:15 am

After working with the book for the last week there was recognition were all the pointers point to. The illusion of a self was seen true. Nothing to do and no questions left.

Then, after a few days "I" started to believe I lost it.

What to do with the thought "I lost it"?

I know there is not such a thing as "I". I is only a thought. So there is nobody to lost anything.

Who knows that?

Nobody.

If some background info is needed i'm happy to share.
Thank you for helping!

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Freddi
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Re: Seen through the illusion but...

Postby Freddi » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:46 am

Hi Job,

My name is Fred and I would be happy to guide you.

Just so that I know about any time differences, whereabouts do you live? I’m in France.

There are also a few standard ground rules before we start:

Please agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time.

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer and then we'll begin.

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:

1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

Look forward to working with you.

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Job
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Re: Seen through the illusion but...

Postby Job » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:55 am

Hi Fred,

I'm very gratefull you are willing to work with me.

I agree to all the ground rules and I have read the disclaimer. I'm living in the Netherlands.

Thank you, Job

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Freddi
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Re: Seen through the illusion but...

Postby Freddi » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:10 pm

Thanks, Job
The illusion of a self was seen true. Nothing to do and no questions left.
Could you be more specific? What did you see? What is the illusion of self? How does it work? Was there a particular pointer or question that made you look and see?
Was there a search, a period of seeking that has ended? What were you looking for?
Then, after a few days "I" started to believe I lost it. What to do with the thought "I lost it"?
Thoughts will still come and go, like clouds, some nice white and fluffy, others threatening and dark. Is there a problem with that particular thought? Who or what has a preference for this kind of thought to stop?

When such a thought pops up, scan your direct experience. For a moment, stop, come back to your breathing, notice what is happening, the seeing, the hearing, the touching. Is there a ‘you’ that can be seen? Heard? Tasted? Compare the content of the thought ‘I lost it’ with what is actually happening, here and now. Does direct experience support that story about an ‘I’ that could get or lose anything?

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Job
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Re: Seen through the illusion but...

Postby Job » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:18 pm

Could you be more specific? What did you see?
I asked myself: „What is holding you back”? and started active looking for the answer. Then it became clear that that the concept self was just a thought and nothing more. It was if I have been looking from the wrong site. All was clear now. Life was going on but there was a feeling of distance.
What is the illusion of self?
The illusion of a self is a construction from the mind, a believe, that there is an I or Me who makes choices, thinks, walks, eats etc. That I or Me is an illusion. There are thoughts, feelings and sensations in the body but an I or Me is something non existing.
Was there a search, a period of seeking that has ended? What were you looking for?
Yes at that moment the seeking was ended but it looks likes i’m searching again. There is confusion now.
I see now I was always looking to repair my „broken self”.
Thoughts will still come and go, like clouds, some nice white and fluffy, others threatening and dark. Is there a problem with that particular thought? Who or what has a preference for this kind of thought to stop?
There is a thought that I got something, that there was an I who got something. And now lost it.

Nobody has the preference to stop thoughts. They just are there, nothing personal and nobody who owns them.

Thank you.

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Job
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Re: Seen through the illusion but...

Postby Job » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:28 pm


When such a thought pops up, scan your direct experience. For a moment, stop, come back to your breathing, notice what is happening, the seeing, the hearing, the touching. Is there a ‘you’ that can be seen? Heard? Tasted? Compare the content of the thought ‘I lost it’ with what is actually happening, here and now. Does direct experience support that story about an ‘I’ that could get or lose anything?
I need some time to look at this. Thank you very much for your help.

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Freddi
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Re: Seen through the illusion but...

Postby Freddi » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:44 pm

Hi Job
All was clear now. Life was going on but there was a feeling of distance.
A distance between what and what? OK, ‘I’ is only a concept, but what is it that feels a distance?
The illusion of a self is a construction from the mind, a believe, that there is an I or Me who makes choices, thinks, walks, eats etc. That I or Me is an illusion. There are thoughts, feelings and sensations in the body but an I or Me is something non existing.
That's clear. Thank you ;-)
it looks likes i’m searching again. There is confusion now.
What are you looking for that isn’t already here and now?
There is a thought that I got something, that there was an I who got something. And now lost it.
Is the content of that thought real, when you look at what is given in direct experience? Where is this ‘I’ that can lose and gain things? Can it be pointed to? Does it have a shape, a size?

I look forward to your response and your look at the last part of my previous post.

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Job
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Re: Seen through the illusion but...

Postby Job » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:10 pm

Hi Fred,
When such a thought pops up, scan your direct experience. For a moment, stop, come back to your breathing, notice what is happening, the seeing, the hearing, the touching. Is there a ‘you’ that can be seen? Heard? Tasted? Compare the content of the thought ‘I lost it’ with what is actually happening, here and now. Does direct experience support that story about an ‘I’ that could get or lose anything?
No there is no Me/I what can be seen, heard, tasted. Nowhere to find. Just a thought.
Here and now is. There is just seeing in the here and now.
The content makes no sense in te here and now.
No direct experience does not support the story of an I who can lose or get something because this is just a thought popping up.
A distance between what and what? OK, ‘I’ is only a concept, but what is it that feels a distance?
There is nobody who feels the distance. Thats also just a thought.
What are you looking for that isn’t already here and now?
In the here and now is rest. Seeing the cat sleeping on the couch, sounds of the cars outside and the shoes of a woman passing by. Don't know if this is where i'm looking for and if there is someone looking. In the here and now is all okay.
Is the content of that thought real, when you look at what is given in direct experience? Where is this ‘I’ that can lose and gain things? Can it be pointed to? Does it have a shape, a size?
No the content is not real. There is no I who experiencing. There is just experiencing. No there cannot be pointed to.

On some moments all is okay, nothing more to do but then there is fear and confusing arising and the old thought of getting and losing. If that happens I will read your text on that part again and really look.

Thanks again.

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Freddi
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Re: Seen through the illusion but...

Postby Freddi » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:13 pm

Hi Job

Thanks for your clear answers. Just a couple of points to look at:
Don't know if this is where i'm looking for and if there is someone looking.
Not sure what you mean by this. My question was really about whether or not seeking is still going on? Is there a search for an alternative to WHAT IS?

Scan your direct experience. Take a good look at the vibrant and pulsating happening of this moment. Can you find an entity looking at the world from behind the eyes? Can you point to a ‘you’, doing the looking and a ‘not you’ being looked at?

Let’s see if we can find a separate entity doing the deciding, the choosing.

1) Can you choose the moment when ‘you’ fall asleep or ‘you’ wake up? A thought comes up and claims ‘Job is getting up’, but what happens, in actuality?
2) Do you beat your heart, grow your hair or control the breathing?
3) Can you control thoughts? Can you choose which thought to have next? Can you stop a thought halfway through?
4) After you read these words, get up and walk across the room.
Who controls the walking? Can you see a definite ‘you’ that controls that walking? Or is there just walking happening?

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Job
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Re: Seen through the illusion but...

Postby Job » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:07 pm

Hello Fred, here the answers on the questions :-)
My question was really about whether or not seeking is still going on? Is there a search for an alternative to WHAT IS?
Yes, seeking is still going on or maybe better to say there are a lot of thoughts of seeking and looking going on. Very tired now.
Don't think there is an alternative for what is. What is is.

There is a believe that there is a I looking to see there is no I or Me.
There is searching to see there is no I or Me.
And if there is no I or Me.
How can something non existing find something what not exist.
Not possible.
Scan your direct experience. Take a good look at the vibrant and pulsating happening of this moment. Can you find an entity looking at the world from behind the eyes? Can you point to a ‘you’, doing the looking and a ‘not you’ being looked at?
When I point to the Me that is looking, that Me is the not-Me. There is looking but no one is looking.
Let’s see if we can find a separate entity doing the deciding, the choosing.
1) Can you choose the moment when ‘you’ fall asleep or ‘you’ wake up? A thought comes up and claims ‘Job is getting up’, but what happens, in actuality?
2) Do you beat your heart, grow your hair or control the breathing?
3) Can you control thoughts? Can you choose which thought to have next? Can you stop a thought halfway through?
4) After you read these words, get up and walk across the room.
Who controls the walking? Can you see a definite ‘you’ that controls that walking? Or is there just walking happening?
1) No, falling asleep and waking up happens. There is nobody doing that.
2) No, no, no, all happens by itself.
3) There are thoughts but there is no me to control the thoughts and to choose the next or stop them.
4) There was a lot of walking today but no Me to find. It's just walking happening.
There are thoughts of a me who is walking but there is nobody doing the walking.

thanks, good night!

Job

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Freddi
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Re: Seen through the illusion but...

Postby Freddi » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:45 am

Hello Job,

Thanks for your honesty and dedication.
Yes, seeking is still going on or maybe better to say there are a lot of thoughts of seeking and looking going on.
Stay in your most immediate experience, with what is alive, here and now, and look at these thoughts that talk about seeking. Question them, explore them. What is real about their content? Is there an ‘I’ that is seeking? What is being sought?
The absence of a separate self has been seen in experience, as you said that ‘I’ is only to be found in thought. Can a thought look for its own absence? Can a thought influence, affect another thought?
When I point to the Me that is looking, that Me is the not-Me.
If you see a 'not-me' where you thought that 'me' was, that still implies the presence of a 'me', somewhere.
In your first-hand experience, are there such things as a ‘me’ and a ‘not-me’?
Close your eyes for a moment, try and feel where ‘you’ start and ‘you’ end. Can you feel a boundary between a ‘me’ and a ‘not-me’? Can you feel your skin? Or is it all the same 'space'?
There was a lot of walking today but no Me to find. It's just walking happening. There are thoughts of a me who is walking but there is nobody doing the walking.
Thanks ;-)
Look at other apparent decision-making events, as they unfold today, in real time, as it were. For example, without a separate entity doing the choosing, how are clothes selected in the morning? How are the ingredients picked up from the fridge, etc? Find any example that presents itself and report what you see. How does decision happen?
For example, a thought will say ‘Job is going to wear a yellow shirt today’, but what is actually happening, in direct experience, how is the shirt selected? What factors come into play?

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Job
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Re: Seen through the illusion but...

Postby Job » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:28 pm

Yes, there is clarity now.
Can a thought look for its own absence? Can a thought influence, affect another thought?
After this question it became clear how pointless the believe (thought) is that there is a me who can use thoughts to find a solution for a problem what exist only in thought.
If you see a 'not-me' where you thought that 'me' was, that still implies the presence of a 'me', somewhere.
In your first-hand experience, are there such things as a ‘me’ and a ‘not-me’?
No, me and not-me exist both only in thought.
In your first-hand experience, are there such things as a ‘me’ and a ‘not-me’?
No, same answer as before. Only in a thought.
Close your eyes for a moment, try and feel where ‘you’ start and ‘you’ end. Can you feel a boundary between a ‘me’ and a ‘not-me’? Can you feel your skin? Or is it all the same 'space'?
No boundary only a thought about a boundary. There is a feeling on the skin but it feels open....don't stops by the skin.
Look at other apparent decision-making events, as they unfold today, in real time, as it were. For example, without a separate entity doing the choosing, how are clothes selected in the morning? How are the ingredients picked up from the fridge, etc? Find any example that presents itself and report what you see. How does decision happen?
For example, a thought will say ‘Job is going to wear a yellow shirt today’, but what is actually happening, in direct experience, how is the shirt selected? What factors come into play?
It just happens. Just life going on.

Thank you very much Fred.

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Freddi
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Re: Seen through the illusion but...

Postby Freddi » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:02 pm

Thanks for sharing your clarity, Job.
It just happens. Just life going on.
I was asking for a couple of examples from your real-time experience. What do you observe, as apparent decision-making events take place? What factors play a part? How do decisions happen?
Look back at the question and try to answer in more details.

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Job
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Re: Seen through the illusion but...

Postby Job » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:16 am

Good morning Fred
I was asking for a couple of examples from your real-time experience. What do you observe, as apparent decision-making events take place? What factors play a part? How do decisions happen?
Look back at the question and try to answer in more details.
After eating breakfast I was observing how the "decision" happens to stand up from the table. There were thoughts about standing up, thought about what to do after standing up, feelings in the body. And then there was standing up.

Really don't know how decision happens. Looked also a lot on this yesterday but hard to explanation what is happening. In some cases it looks is the thoughts arise "after" the decision is made and there is some kind of "knowing" what to do.

I will look some more on this today.

Job

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Freddi
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Re: Seen through the illusion but...

Postby Freddi » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:34 am

Thanks Job, really enjoying your willingness to look.

I look forward to your further investigation of apparent decision-making events later on.

And also this:
No boundary only a thought about a boundary. There is a feeling on the skin but it feels open....don't stops by the skin.
Scan your most immediate experience. What is the 'body'? What does this convenient label point to? Are 'you' the body? Is the body doing the experiencing or is it experienced?

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts


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