Thread for Rusty

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Sarah7
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Thread for Rusty

Postby Sarah7 » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:06 pm

Hey Rusty
Welcome!
Do you want to tell me a bit about yourself?
Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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rusty377
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Re: Thread for Rusty

Postby rusty377 » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:40 pm

Hello Sarah,

Thanks for guiding! Live in Beaufort,South Carolina. Have travelled the world- both europe and asia over the years. Been searching for only 7 months that started with a book by Graham Ellis, a british gentleman who has an odd method (to me anyway-"put your awareness on awareness") of speaking about awareness and being, that caused me to go on a hunt. Have read several books including Gateless Gatecrashers and others like Eckhart Tolle and Peter Dzubian (not sure I spelled his last name correctly). Am 70 years old and looking for freedom even at this age. Had first bout with panic attack around Christmas, but since searching find relief by living in the now.

Have read disclaimers, watched video, and agree to all the terms, used app and read many threads on LU.
Cheers, Rusty

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Re: Thread for Rusty

Postby Sarah7 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:05 am

Hi Rusty
Just so you know I’m in England – I usually post after work but Im on holiday at the mo.

I know you have already agreed but there are also a few standard ground rules before we start:

Please agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.
Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:

1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

OK then! Let's start with a summary of what you're looking for and what you expect to find. If you've already answered some of these, please forgive any overlap and just fill in the gaps where you haven't.

What are your expectations for this process?

What is it that you are searching for?

How will you know that you found it?

How will this feel?

How will this change you?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: Thread for Rusty

Postby rusty377 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:28 pm

Hi Sarah,

If you are on vacation there is no time constraint for me this can be done later if you wish. I am in est timezone. Was hoping to use android tablet but ran into trouble using quote function without a mouse. May have to wait until tomorrow to use another machine.
Cheers, Rusty

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rusty377
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Re: Thread for Rusty

Postby rusty377 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:58 am

1. What are your expectations for this process?

Reduction of mindchatter

2. What is it you are searching for?

Freedom in whatever form

3. How will you know when you have found it?

No expectations

4. How will this feel?

Unknown

5. How will this change you?

No expectations


I am sending this using quick quote with tablet for tonight.
Cheers, Rusty

Sent using tablet

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Sarah7
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Re: Thread for Rusty

Postby Sarah7 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:58 am

Hey Rusty
Yes modern technology!!!!! This site also has a habit of logging you out real quick! So I write elsewhere and copy/paste it across! LOL. OK then lets get stuck in! You might need to add a bit more detail from now on!!!!! :)

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

There is absolutely no "you" in any way, shape, or form. No "you" thinking your thoughts. No "you" living your life. There never has been a "you" nor will there ever be. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?

You are what you are looking for. You ‘are’ what you seek. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does? In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now? What makes the "I" so permanent in our eyes?
Big hugs Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: Thread for Rusty

Postby rusty377 » Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:20 am

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?
After careful searching the self is not found at all.
There is absolutely no "you" in any way, shape, or form. No "you" thinking your thoughts. No "you" living your life. There never has been a "you" nor will there ever be. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?
Physically the heart is beating a little faster and stronger- thoughts are less chaotic-feelings are more sensitive to the world.
You are what you are looking for. You ‘are’ what you seek. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?
A feeling of giddiness when combined with the “no you” paragraph above as this will relieve a lot of pressure from the mind.
Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does? In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now? What makes the "I" so permanent in our eyes?
Nothing exists other than the present moment- memories are just stories with strings of thoughts and the future is nothing but planning- all just words. Nothing is permanent as everything is in movement..The “I” seems permanent because of our upbringing from childhood as an entity with personal traits.
Cheers, Rusty

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Re: Thread for Rusty

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:35 pm

Hey Rusty
After careful searching the self is not found at all.
And how does that feel?
Nothing exists other than the present moment- memories are just stories with strings of thoughts and the future is nothing but planning- all just words. Nothing is permanent as everything is in movement..The “I” seems permanent because of our upbringing from childhood as an entity with personal traits.
Lovely! OK now lets look at control.
Have you ever noticed sometimes that you arrive at a destination and don't really recall actually making the journey? It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It is only afterwards that the mind grabs hold of the experience and states 'I was driving the car' or, if questioned whilst driving (a present continuous activity), it would say 'I am driving the car'.
Whether your mind is totally concentrating on each gear shift that 'I' make, each look in the rear view mirror that 'I' makes, each twist of the steering wheel . . . or the entire journey is done automatically, the same result is achieved. Similarly when doing household tasks. Whether mind is involved or not, the task still gets accomplished.

We call this autopilot – is this experienced?

How often is this noticed? Have a look through your day?

Next, as you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around. Walking, eating, typing, dressing yourself, etc. Is there a WHO living your life? Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life? Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought that owns and directs the body.

This is all about focusing on your Direct Experience. When you report back to me on what you see you don’t need to list all that you have noticed – just tell me if you find a ‘you’ controlling anything? So if you notice thoughts everywhere – say I notice thoughts everywhere, if you notice labelling thoughts – say I notice labelling thoughts etc.
Big hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: Thread for Rusty

Postby rusty377 » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:56 pm

rusty377 wrote:After careful searching the self is not found at all.

And how does that feel?
A little disconcerting at first but a sense of relief soon follows once freedom is noticed.
rusty377 wrote:Nothing exists other than the present moment- memories are just stories with strings of thoughts and the future is nothing but planning- all just words. Nothing is permanent as everything is in movement..The “I” seems permanent because of our upbringing from childhood as an entity with personal traits.

Lovely! OK now lets look at control.
Have you ever noticed sometimes that you arrive at a destination and don't really recall actually making the journey? It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It is only afterwards that the mind grabs hold of the experience and states 'I was driving the car' or, if questioned whilst driving (a present continuous activity), it would say 'I am driving the car'.
Whether your mind is totally concentrating on each gear shift that 'I' make, each look in the rear view mirror that 'I' makes, each twist of the steering wheel . . . or the entire journey is done automatically, the same result is achieved. Similarly when doing household tasks. Whether mind is involved or not, the task still gets accomplished.

We call this autopilot – is this experienced?
Yes
How often is this noticed? Have a look through your day?
Very frequently if not all the time.
Next, as you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around. Walking, eating, typing, dressing yourself, etc. Is there a WHO living your life? Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life?


Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought that owns and directs the body.

This is all about focusing on your Direct Experience. When you report back to me on what you see you don’t need to list all that you have noticed – just tell me if you find a ‘you’ controlling anything?


No one controlling anything- thoughts just manifest and then pass like the wind and waves. The labeling comes after the sensations but not every time.

So if you notice thoughts everywhere – say I notice thoughts everywhere, if you notice labelling thoughts – say I notice labelling thoughts etc.
Cheers, Rusty

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Re: Thread for Rusty

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:46 am

Morning Rusty
Lovely noticing here!
OK we are going to look at sensory experience. Seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling and tasting. Let's start with seeing.

Describe the experience of seeing step-by-step. In seeing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "seeing" is happening? What is doing the seeing? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of? Go into detail. Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing.

Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Or is there only seeing? What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?

Notice the shapes and colours you’re seeing. Notice the habitual thought, "That is a …whatever." Notice the habitual thought, "I see that." Now just pay attention to how seeing happens. Take your time with it. Can you find a dividing line between the seer and the seeing of the table? Are you doing the seeing? Or is it truer to say that seeing is just happening? Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the seeing of it and a separate entity, a "you," doing the seeing. In other words, what does it mean when you say, "I'm seeing that table"? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and seer and an object? Or is there just one experience of seeing, with no one as a seer. Look closely.
Try it with various sights e.g. out of the window at a distant view. See if you can find a way to separate the object from the seeing and the seeing from the seer. Where does one start and the other end? Where does seeing happen?
Big hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: Thread for Rusty

Postby rusty377 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:09 pm

OK we are going to look at sensory experience. Seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling and tasting. Let's start with seeing.



Describe the experience of seeing step-by-step. In seeing, what is being experienced?
Visual information is being presented to the brain neurologically. Shapes, colors, patterns, and textures are evaluated and acted upon by the body and the brain in the form of sensations and feelings.
What is happening when "seeing" is happening. What is doing the seeing?
The body
What is being seen?
Objects
What does "seeing" consists of?
The eyes process visual information and pass to the brain thru perception filters which modify the information according to our past history and feelings. The brain uses it to evaluate conditions in the outside world and whether conditions are safe or not. This information is then labeled and passed to the story-telling side of our brain where it is woven into tales “of the dark side” of life.


Go into detail. Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing.

Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Or is there only seeing? What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?
Direct experience does not include the "I", only experiences from the senses.
Notice the shapes and colours you’re seeing. Notice the habitual thought, "That is a …whatever." Notice the habitual thought, "I see that." Now just pay attention to how seeing happens. Take your time with it. Can you find a dividing line between the seer and the seeing of the table? Are you doing the seeing? Or is it truer to say that seeing is just happening? Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the seeing of it and a separate entity, a "you," doing the seeing. In other words, what does it mean when you say, "I'm seeing that table"? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and seer and an object? Or is there just one experience of seeing, with no one as a seer. Look closely.
Try it with various sights e.g. out of the window at a distant view. See if you can find a way to separate the object from the seeing and the seeing from the seer. Where does one start and the other end? Where does seeing happen?
There is only seeing as there is no subject “I” in actuality and no boundary between seer and object- just a fuzzy interface. Seeing happens in awareness.
Cheers, Rusty

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Re: Thread for Rusty

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:59 am

Hi Rusty
Direct experience is what is directly noticed – sensations, feeling, emotion and thought.
Visual information is being presented to the brain neurologically. Shapes, colors, patterns, and textures are evaluated and acted upon by the body and the brain in the form of sensations and feelings.
OK looking at this sentence – is the brain directly experienced? Is the body acting upon a thought? The shapes, colours etc. is that labelling?
What is happening when "seeing" is happening. What is doing the seeing?
The body
OK – lets look at this. Do you actually experience the body seeing? Or thoughts telling you it’s the body?
The eyes process visual information and pass to the brain thru perception filters which modify the information according to our past history and feelings. The brain uses it to evaluate conditions in the outside world and whether conditions are safe or not. This information is then labeled and passed to the story-telling side of our brain where it is woven into tales “of the dark side” of life.
Is this story thoughts? Or do you directly experience this?
Direct experience does not include the "I", only experiences from the senses.
We are hunting for what is experienced – and if the ‘I’ is being experienced then look to see what is actually being experienced that is being called ‘I’. So are sensation being called ‘I’ here?
There is only seeing as there is no subject “I” in actuality and no boundary between seer and object- just a fuzzy interface. Seeing happens in awareness.
OK – is there separation in this seeing? Can you still say that the body sees? Are you seeing objects that are separate? Where do you end and they start? Can you find that line? Where does seeing happen?

Is it clearly seen that there is no ‘I’?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: Thread for Rusty

Postby rusty377 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:41 pm

Direct experience is what is directly noticed – sensations, feeling, emotion and thought.
rusty377 wrote:Visual information is being presented to the brain neurologically. Shapes, colors, patterns, and textures are evaluated and acted upon by the body and the brain in the form of sensations and feelings.

OK looking at this sentence – is the brain directly experienced?
No
Is the body acting upon a thought?
No
The shapes, colours etc. is that labelling?

Yes
What is happening when "seeing" is happening. What is doing the seeing?
rusty377 wrote:The body

OK – lets look at this. Do you actually experience the body seeing?
No
Or thoughts telling you it’s the body?
Thoughts telling me its the body.
rusty377 wrote:The eyes process visual information and pass to the brain thru perception filters which modify the information according to our past history and feelings. The brain uses it to evaluate conditions in the outside world and whether conditions are safe or not. This information is then labeled and passed to the story-telling side of our brain where it is woven into tales “of the dark side” of life.

Is this story thoughts?
Thoughts
Or do you directly experience this?
No
rusty377 wrote:Direct experience does not include the "I", only experiences from the senses.

We are hunting for what is experienced – and if the ‘I’ is being experienced then look to see what is actually being experienced that is being called ‘I’. So are sensation being called ‘I’ here?
rusty377 wrote:There is only seeing as there is no subject “I” in actuality and no boundary between seer and object- just a fuzzy interface. Seeing happens in awareness.

OK – is there separation in this seeing?
No
Can you still say that the body sees?
No
Are you seeing objects that are separate?
No
Where do you end and they start? Can you find that line?
There is no line
Where does seeing happen?
In awareness

Is it clearly seen that there is no ‘I’?
Yes
Cheers, Rusty

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Re: Thread for Rusty

Postby Sarah7 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:36 am

Hi Rusty
Moving right along then lets look at touch and hearing. We are still looking for a dividing line/separation.

Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds etc. Notice the habitual thought, "Those are birds." Notice the habitual thought, "I hear that." Now just pay attention to how hearing happens. Take your time with it. Can you find a dividing line between the sound and the hearing of the sound? Are you doing the hearing? Or is it truer to say that hearing is just happening? Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the hearing of it and a separate entity, a "you," doing the hearing. In other words, what does it mean when you say, "I'm hearing that sound"? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and hearing and a sound? Or is there just one experience of hearing, with no one as a hearer. Look closely. Try it with various sounds. See if you can find a way to separate the sound from the hearing and the hearing from the hearer. Where does one start and the other end? So what do you see about the thought, "I'm hearing that sound"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?
What is a noise? Is that a label also? Is the sound there? Can you really know? Can you catch the labelling – ‘I’ hear that?

Can a face, hand or foot know or experience something? Can a face, hand or foot hear, taste, smell or see these words? Or are the face, hand and foot known and experienced along with everything else?

Touch the table with your eyes shut (or open). Pretend like it’s the first time you have ever touched a table. Go straight to the raw sensation/perception. How do you know its there? What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience. Is it senses again? Is it thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the senses or the thoughts?
Does the sensation of touching come with a shape, density, weight, size, colour, age or function? Does this sensation come with a ‘not me’ label or ‘other’ label? Is it one sensation/perception or two?
Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove. Notice your memories or references with which you compare the experience.
Sit with these sensations. Look at them. Look at the labelling e.g. table, hand. Look at the thoughts or story that attach at the end of this list if any. What is your direct experience of these words? Do they exist? How do you know they are there? List your direct experience. Are they sensations again? Are they just thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the sensation or the thoughts? Don’t pay attention to the thoughts just look at what they do, when they come in.

Do we experience sensations or do we experience sensing? For us to experience a sensation it would have to be independently walking around.

Do you experience a sensation inside another sensation? Do you experience a perception inside another perception? A sensation inside a perception, a perception inside a sensation? Do you experience a body in the world and a mind in the body? How can a body be in the world and a mind in a body? Do you experience a thought inside a perception or a sensation? How can you experience a thought inside a body or inside the world? Experience has no inside or outside – it is just experience seamlessly experiencing.

Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: Thread for Rusty

Postby rusty377 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:01 am

I am unable to reply tonight to these many questions :0) I will do so tomorrow.
Cheers, Rusty

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