Seeking guiding

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Annja
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Seeking guiding

Postby Annja » Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:48 am

Hi
Sometimes a noticer noticing something....seeking the noticer there is no-one to be found just noticing.... Seeking the seeker there is no-one to be found just resting. Occasionally there is no fixer....

Other times there I am, body solid, mind worries indecision, contracting, judging, suffering the story being so real.

Studying Mahamudra and Dzogchen traditions.

Looking for guiding

Thank you

Annja

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moondog
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Re: Seeking guiding

Postby moondog » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:29 am

Hi Annja and welcome,

My name's Pete and I live in Somerset in England.

There are a few things that we need to go over so that I know the best way for us to continue.

Please tell me a bit about yourself and your story, how you came to LU and what it is that you're looking for.

Pete
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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Annja
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Re: Seeking guiding

Postby Annja » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:44 pm

Hi Pete

Thank you for replying. Just taking my dad out for a late lunch...he has his coat on!! Will email more when I get back. Can I send private posts or do they all go out on the forum? Bit of an IT dinosaur.

A friend told me about LU. Looking for a way of staying unstuck..sometimes seem to be through the Gateway...other times life stressors come thick and fast and I forget, get lost stuck me...for hours or days sometimes..

Annja

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moondog
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Re: Seeking guiding

Postby moondog » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:15 pm

Hi Annja,

It's good to hear from you. I hope your meal with your dad went well. I've just got back from London where I saw Adyashanti give a talk. I'd never seen him before, so that was interesting.

All the guiding takes place on this forum, so please just reply here. No worries about the feelings of 'stuckness'. I've successfully guided lots of people and many have felt the kind of thing you mention. We'll look at all of that soon.

Anyway, looking forward to hearing more from you soon.

Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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Annja
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Re: Seeking guiding

Postby Annja » Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:14 pm

Hi Pete
Well more about me...

Seem to have been seeking for several decades several pathways, vision quests, firewalking, Way of Council. The poem 'The Invitation' has been an inspiration for me. Several years ago divorce, bereavement, illness, house selling etc all came at once and it was like my way of dealing with life no longer worked and went into acute anxiety.. Found secular mindfulness, then Buddhism and now more awake. Now much less anxiety and fear.. still comes though, but I have an anchor..whatever happens, however big the anchor holds. My mum was my dharma teacher in many ways, as she died throughout last year my practice strengthened. My teachers come from the Kagyu lineage and also a contemplative Sikh.

Have a Dharma practice, formal and increasingly in daily life and now can at times turn towards the fear and judgement and often end up chuckling as it dissolves when I look for it, then look for the I that is looking and its nowhere to be found..there is nothing to do, nothing to add nothing to remove, no doer and no deeds. Sometimes when sitting my heart opens taking my whole body until it fills the space of awareness with no boundaries and then in daily life I can see more clearly and chuckle more.

Other times, particularly when heavy work stuff (restructuring understaffing) and probate stuff for mum is about I can get really stuck, and even if I remember reality and illusion hours or occasionally days can go by ... fear and indescision quite paralysing at times. When I remember, sit and turn toward there is nothing to fear it dissolves, yet sometimes I look see the hole I am in and struggle to get out thereby staying stuck. I think of the 'autobiography in five parts' if you know it rarely now stuck in a hole without knowing, sometimes even take another street. Sometimes worry how it may be when full on at work again..I look for the worry..inside..outside..where..its not there..can't find it and it delights me ... and yet it comes back.....I'm tired of the struggle.

Look forward to hearing from you

Annja

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moondog
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Re: Seeking guiding

Postby moondog » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:07 pm

Hi Annja,

Thanks for sharing those details about yourself and your life; it's much appreciated. Also, thanks for accepting me as your guide.

Here are a few standard ground rules before we start:

You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived, honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer, and that you'd like me to be your guide and then we'll begin.

Let's start with a summary of what you're looking for and what you expect to find.

What are your expectations for this process?

What is it that you are searching for?

How will you know that you found it?

How will this feel?

How will this change you?


Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:

1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

Don't worry, I don't intend to send any more posts this long, if I can help it! This is just to set things up for you nicely.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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Annja
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Re: Seeking guiding

Postby Annja » Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:11 pm

Hi pete
Have watched video and read disclaimer again. Yes happy with guidelines and great to have you as guide. On plane to see partner in rome niw. Will poat answers to your questions when arrive as not so skillful with my phone. Gemma

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Re: Seeking guiding

Postby moondog » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:46 pm

Hi Gemma,

Thanks for agreeing to all of that. Looking forward to the rest of your replies once you've fully arrived in Rome.

Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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Annja
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Re: Seeking guiding

Postby Annja » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:40 pm

Hi Pete

Interesting trying to answer these without my head and concepts getting in the way..here goes though.

What are your expectations for this process?
Seeing through the illusion, challenging, honesty,

What is it that you are searching for?
The truth, peace, contentment, freedom, really living in my life

How will you know that you found it?
When I am eating just eating. Somehow just being where I am, experiencing what I am experiencing, feeling the air on skin ...pleasant, hearing Italian from a big square box TV not so pleasant, a tapestry of sounds of the city,
being with what matters,
My heart will open and planning will be light and anything could happen, every moment could be a surprise, and I’d chuckle a lot

How will this feel?
Alive , peaceful, tingly sensations, curious, open, content, spacious, timeless, relaxed, content
Waves of warm chocolate melting on the outbreath, like floating in the ocean

How will this change you?
There will be enough or rather I'll know there always has been

Gemma

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moondog
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Re: Seeking guiding

Postby moondog » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:45 am

Hi Gemma,
What are your expectations for this process?
Seeing through the illusion, challenging, honesty,
What is it that you are searching for?
The truth, peace, contentment, freedom, really living in my life
Thanks for sharing your expectations, part of which I've quoted above, and your understanding of what seeing that you have no separate self might and might not be like. It's natural, of course, to wonder and speculate about what this liberation/awakening will be like but, by its very nature, I can assure you that it's just not like anyone expects, although it does differ for each one of us. I'd just stress that the work we do is definitely not intellectual or thought-based. That being so, it's very helpful if you can put aside any expectations, as they reside in thoughts about the future and so are not within direct experience.

Rest assured, that when you see that there isn't and never has been a 'you', a self-entity, with my guiding to help you see that fact for yourself, you'll just know. In exactly the same way that you know that unicorns aren't real, Batman doesn't exist, and there's no Santa Claus. It isn't fundamentally at all difficult, amazingly simple in fact, but only if you don't rely on trying to figure it out by thinking it through but, instead, just LOOK, LOOK, LOOK in direct experience.

So, as I've already said, actually seeing for sure that there is no separate self, and never has been, is different for everyone. It can come with a definite pop of realisation, or it might creep up gradually until it is seen. Also the effects on life lived after liberation can vary widely.

It’s worth mentioning at this early stage that what can hold a lot of people back, and something that we can perhaps knock on the head now, are assumptions around what one would 'be like' or what life ought to 'look like' once it’s seen that there’s no self-entity. As I briefly touched on above, there is a view that 'getting it' is tantamount to kind of somehow seeing it all the time, or being in some kind of state in which negative emotions or problems don’t arise.

It's really helpful to be clear that it's not any kind of state - it's simply direct knowing, insight. The Santa example puts it very well - 'seeing through' Santa, i.e. knowing for sure that there is no Santa, doesn't mean that little kids then spend the rest of their lives constantly thinking, 'there's no Santa'! Nor does it mean that Santa isn't apparently spotted in shopping malls in December. It's just that the story has been seen through. The direct knowing of no-self may be recollected at any time, but states still continue to come and go - pleasant, unpleasant, 'positive', 'negative'. However, that said, changes will be noticed, some possibly quite dramatic, including in relation to suffering arising from a pre-occupation with a separate self that simply doesn't exist!

I hope that's helped to clarify the background stuff a bit. Don't hesitate to ask me about any of this.

Moving on towards the core of this work - just look at the following statement, and ponder it every which way you can:

Nothing exists outside the present moment.

Can you find anything, anything at all, that does?


And next:

How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ 'me' that you hold 'yourself' to be?

Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?


Pete x

Ps.To make your replies as clear as possible and to help me guide you, please use the quote function. To do that, simply highlight the relevant sentence(s)/paragraph(s) that you're replying to in my previous post and press 'copy', then press the 'Quote ' button in the bar above the section you're typing in, then place the cursor in the centre of the two bracketed quote words and then press "paste". That should do it.
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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Annja
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Re: Seeking guiding

Postby Annja » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:13 pm

Hi Pete
Nothing exists outside the present moment.

Can you find anything, anything at all, that does?
Well I look at the lamp beside me I see a lamp feel it with my finger, but all that is now, or then as that 'now's already gone. Yet I have a memory of it then in what was then now ....If I look the other way or shut my eyes it seems not there anymore,

same with my toes they disapear if I move them down behind the computer, If I shut my eyes there is just sensations where I think my toes arebut but if I move my toe I cant tell if the sensation moves or where it is really ....then there as sound of airconditioning and I dont know if the sensation that is my toe is still there at the same moment as the sound... its like I perceive the sound or the sensation and my awareness moves between them.

and yet the sounds and sensations seem like also they can exist at the same moment like the background traffic noise and the tingling where I think the sole of my left foot is seem to both be in my awareness.

But if I play and become aware of a visual field of the room kind of peripherally somehow the room, the traffic noise and the tingling all seems to be there , yet I am not sure if my awareness is just flicking between them maybe or perhaps they are all there and one or the other moves into more focus, I guess how small is a moment.

But it all seems to be happening now I dont know what will come more into focus in the next moment. When I relax and shut my eyes its like . When I relax and shut my eyes its like being in a tingly touch sensation trafficy sounding space, different sensations or noises flowing to the fore in different moments, thoughts drifting to. It seems to fix more if open my eyes though can relax again..

Cant seem to find anything at all outside of this moment...its like pregnant with possibilities

Hmmm

How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ 'me' that you hold 'yourself' to be?

Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?

Its like this flow of experience and in there I dont know where the self is , I can't find a 'me' right now.

Well now a moment later there is a 'me' thinking of the future like going to the beach as I am hot...so there is an 'I' hiding in there somewhere... then I step out of the flow somehow..its strange and need to somehow consciously drop the future thinking to be aware of the flow. And this 'me' did pop into the flow in terms of a thought of the beach a few minutes ago, yet then was seen as a thought arising that passed on, not caught up in it .

Like who is the I that I hold myself to be????? At the moment a fairly solid hot go to beach thought so will continue to ponder this on way to the beach. And yet there is also the thought that this is really interesting...Who is choosing this option?? I am not my thoughts, yet something is off to the beach moving this body over these perceived roads !
Gemma

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Annja
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Re: Seeking guiding

Postby Annja » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:16 pm

Hi Pete
Hi Pete

Back from beach now.
Its like the 'I' conceived to be seems to be this awareness that is aware of things arising within it sometimes'''' and othertimes well somehow I am seperate again. At the moment its like being fluid as though the conceived 'I' is changing, things that used to matter no longer seem to matter .. the sea and the beach were there but .... and 'I' was there getting irritated when sprayed with someone elses perfume by the wind, thinking the old story that it makes me sneeze...... Now.....Strange ... when in the flow no 'I' can be found at all, ......and yet now in this moment there is an I' again thinking 'what will Pete think of this reply' so there is a you and a judgement....amd a Watcher and thus a doer,,,hmmm....and then it opens again

Gemma

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Re: Seeking guiding

Postby moondog » Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:30 pm

Hi Gemma,
Well I look at the lamp beside me I see a lamp feel it with my finger, but all that is now, or then as that 'now's already gone. Yet I have a memory of it then in what was then now ....If I look the other way or shut my eyes it seems not there anymore. same with my toes they disapear if I move them down behind the computer, If I shut my eyes there is just sensations where I think my toes arebut but if I move my toe I cant tell if the sensation moves or where it is really ....then there as sound of airconditioning and I dont know if the sensation that is my toe is still there at the same moment as the sound... its like I perceive the sound or the sensation and my awareness moves between them.
Cant seem to find anything at all outside of this moment...its like pregnant with possibilities
I really like your observations (including those above) around this and from what you have said, you're clearly familiar (intellectually at least) with, and apparently comfortable with, there only ever being just this, now.
Its like this flow of experience and in there I dont know where the self is , I can't find a 'me' right now.
Good, that's great.
Well now a moment later there is a 'me' thinking of the future like going to the beach as I am hot...so there is an 'I' hiding in there somewhere... then I step out of the flow somehow..its strange and need to somehow consciously drop the future thinking to be aware of the flow. And this 'me' did pop into the flow in terms of a thought of the beach a few minutes ago, yet then was seen as a thought arising that passed on, not caught up in it.
We'll move on to this in more detail soon, but do you notice in what you've said above how pivotal your thoughts and thinking are?

Can you find a 'you', a separate self anywhere apart from in thinking? If so, please describe what you see.
Back from beach now.
Its like the 'I' conceived to be seems to be this awareness that is aware of things arising within it sometimes'''' and othertimes well somehow I am seperate again. At the moment its like being fluid as though the conceived 'I' is changing, things that used to matter no longer seem to matter .. the sea and the beach were there but .... and 'I' was there getting irritated when sprayed with someone elses perfume by the wind, thinking the old story that it makes me sneeze...... Now.....Strange ... when in the flow no 'I' can be found at all, ......and yet now in this moment there is an I' again thinking 'what will Pete think of this reply' so there is a you and a judgement....amd a Watcher and thus a doer,,,hmmm....and then it opens again
Well, 'Pete' thinks that this is clearly all already familiar territory for you and that, as far as it goes, you've got a good handle on it. My job as your guide during this enquiry will be simply to point out to you where and how to look in direct experience so that you can see for sure for yourself whether there's a separate self-entity anywhere doing or being anything. I really like to maintain a specific skeleton structure to this process, which then allows us to explore much more loosely within each and every area within experience where a separate self might be found.

As you'll have seen, the initial questions point you towards looking into 'your' direct experience, which is, as I say, where I'll be frequently pointing you to look, and where this investigation will take place. That's as opposed to thought content. Direct experience is the very core of what we're doing here with this. Essentially, and utterly fundamentally, all there is, and can ever be, is here right now in this moment. So looking to see whether a separate and separating self is to be found can only take place within direct experience of this. Now. There's nothing else. It follows therefore that all of our work to realise and actually know that there is no self is done by investigating In direct experience. To this end, we can divide direct experience into thought, sensations (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling [tactile and kinaesthetic] and an unmistakable sense of Aliveness (presence/being). I referred to the useful article on direct experience in the introductory post, and you might want to have another look at that.

As I keep saying, the whole of this investigation centres around looking in direct experience to see if a self-entity can be found anywhere there. This is accompanied by seeing that it is in thoughts and only in thoughts that 'I' ever 'occurs' and that 'I' doesn't actually occur there either because thoughts, or at least their contents, are neither reliable nor real in any sense.

So, let's start at last investigating in direct experience where a self-entity might be by looking at sense arisings and the self as experiencer:

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?

If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?

Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.


Pete x

Ps. Just so you know, I tend to post once a day, round about the time I'll send this, mid to late afternoon. But sometimes earlier, sometimes more than once. Far from written in stone :)
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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Annja
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Re: Seeking guiding

Postby Annja » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:41 pm

Hi Pete
Yes you have hit the nail on the head, when I am in more formal sitting or moving meditation or reflecting the 'I' seems not there and the thoughts sometimes catch me in other times arise and pass .. in the rest of life its more intellectual the 'self' keeps popping up. Strange last night talking to my partner...as though just come of a weeks silent retreat... kind of scary...ok though. Then this morning in the hole the drama over something that did not matter at all...caught in the thoughts and the story again.... took several hours to get out.

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?
Looking at a plant When I look for where the 'i' may be - no there is no'i' to be found just seeing, same with the hotel opposite,
Although somehow I have to be intentional or conscious about this...thoughts in head about the process then look for the thoughts and can't find them
Yet the mop and the towel ...its subtle ..looking at a mop its different..as though I like plants so there is an intimacy somehow, mop..no response initially then the beuaty of its blue colour, so something responding to the object ..something softens with the looking interest...took a while to be just seeing..


If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?
Strange to answer this one as with no 'I ' its like just this intimacy with the 'seen (plant), like not sure where a boundary could be. ... and the hotel has sunset light on it...again a kind of movement opening towards ...just seeing
Yet the mop and the towel, really wondering where the boundary is and cant say where so went up to it shut my eyes and touched it and there is something there but it is no longer a mop so somehow less boundary with touch sense eyes shut. so walked up to mop again eyes open and strangly initmate experience as approach, less separation until touch it...then soften the touch

Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.
Smell facinating: baked potato smell no'i' to be found like walking into an embrace feeling .... potato smell, body sensations tingly, warmth feeling, no separation, like an infusion of smelling and surround sound smelling.
So then I tried smells I don't like e.g. hair conditioner (personal story of chemical sensitivities and bad reaction to chemical smells, perfumes paints etc so tend to avoid ...body reacts as though the story is true still!), generates thinking a bit and can feel a contracting, closing down, forehead wrinkling

Tasting: well that was fun! and very interesting...need to do more of this. blueberry just melting together 'me' into the blueberry taste so became just tasting, coffee similar no boundaries , almost joyfull definitely alive and present.
Chewing a food kind of more separation and thoughts unless consciously looking for the thinker and where the though is and then they disappear.
tomato ginger sauce there was some separation initially kind of not so keen on ginger but relax the boundary and let the thoughts pass by that were coming up around food intolerences or is it I never really liked ginger type thoughts,
Kind of want to try something I really dont like to see what happens e.g. aniseed


Hearing : no 'i' no boundary no separation, most sounds in this way when contemplating...something that has become this way through the Mindfulness teaching, can notice liking disliking and letting be just sounds arising, staying around a while, ....passing away, still get ratty and me and them with the building works near my dads house though.

Tactile feelings- a bit different this one as have a body sensations awareness meditation practice at the moment: body sensations no size no distance spread to fill the space of awareness with everything in them, eyes shut when touching boundaries blur not sure where an 'i' ends and the object begins, an edge there I am playing with, like toe sensation has no size so standing on one leg then moving toe down to floor and there is something there which may not be a floor but something is happening. Gently stroking the by now very blue mop less solidity and seperate 'I'.

Reflections:
Its like I know I open more when I like something, someone and there is less separateness, but this is like experiencing this on a deeper level...I seem to separate and solidify an 'i' and 'other thing' when I am no so keen on them, like a solidity and a wooden/deadness, unlike the warm aliveness when open and embracing,joining, merging ....don't have a word for it. And when I get interested in the object, like with people i maybe dont know /dont like much, there opening warmth aliveness boundaries bluring, no 'i'.

More thinking popping up when not liking something..is this because more separate, more 'I' so more thinking comes to the foreground....

Seeing makes things pretty solid, touching - well see above, and funnily enough tasting brought up more thoughts and solidity than smelling or hearing, don't think pay much attention to taste...bland basic diet a factor perhaps food is great if I can eat it and feel well afterwards whatever the taste, though have my favourites.

Thanks Pete looking forward to next questions.

Gemma

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Annja
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Re: Seeking guiding

Postby Annja » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:26 pm

Hi Pete
again...
Forgot a bit..
If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?
The seeing process...well when there is a seperateness an 'I' the seeing process is just something that is occuring, within which is the ;I; and the 'seen', its like the seeing is the space and when seer and seen are seperate they are a distance apart within this space, but kind of a closed down space like an elongated oval between me and the mop, and as I relax the boundary maybe look for the seer who is naturally not there the seeing space opens and expands and somehow space is not made up of distance anymore...like the mop is not closer to 'my body' yet it is no distance away....

The touching process well youd expect it to be in one place where the touching is occuring when there is seperation, at the point of the touching place where object meets ;my; finger..and yet there is all the other places that 'my' body touches something that all seem to be there as well as though that sense field is somehow in the fore of the background, or maybe thats when I am relaxing opening just sensing no thoughts...yes thats more like it it spreads through body tingly sensations and a tingly space opens up and embraces the toucher touched boundary and the touched thing...hmmm ..more to play with there

Gemma

Its like when there is just hearing its surround sound traffic or birdsong or whatever sound is there for as long as is there or the sounds appear within the physical tingly sensations that just spread and spread.


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