Millionth time's the charm

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Lars1
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Millionth time's the charm

Postby Lars1 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:55 pm

Hello,

I've been here before. It's a bit more than two years since I first stumbled upon all of this. I've been through 4-5 guides by now I believe.

When I look around the forum, I almost vomit when I see the questions I've tried to answer too many times. I have been pretty obsessive with this, throwing away all other interest away because this seemed like the only thing worth spending time on. I don't even want to know how many hours I've spent trying to see this, with nothing to show for it.

I've been contemplating whether it would be a good idea to return here. One of the issues I believe I have is that I keep trying to see the 'correct' thing, so as to get all the enlightenment perks and writing answers to guide probably made that worse, instead of answering the questions for my own sake.

I've recently tried to start being honest with something else, like why I do the things I do in my life. What does the process of fear look like. It seems I'm less likely to look for something made up this way; however once in a while I get impatient and I have a serious worry that I'm just digging around in places that doesn't really matter. I'm hoping I'll avoid that with a guide.

I'm not an appealing case, I'm sure. However if anyone feel like they're up for it, I'd appreciate it. We could do a trial run - If I'm still chasing my tail, we'll break it off. I am up for any weird way you want to do this.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Millionth time's the charm

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:52 am

Good day Lars. vince here.
Ok, you know the routine then, so let's get stuck in.
How will you know when you have "got it" ?
What is IT ? (That which you are seeking)
Is IT something additional to what you already have ? (are you going to gain something ?)

vince

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Re: Millionth time's the charm

Postby Lars1 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:38 pm

Hello Vince,
Thanks for doing this.

Good questions, they didn’t make me want to vomit. Nice.
What is IT ? (That which you are seeking)
As in what is the thing that I'm looking for? There's nothing. It's an imagined package of benefits, dangling in front of me like a carrot in front an elephant. Or donkey, I forget which animal is in that expression.
How will you know when you have "got it" ?
I just admitted the end goal is illusory. The sense that I've got it, is entirely dependent on matching those imaginations. I can't say how I will know when that I've got it and I can see how this is a real problem.

I'd like to dig more into these questions tomorrow morning. I just wanted to let you I'm here.

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Re: Millionth time's the charm

Postby Lars1 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:45 am

Hello Vince,

I’d like to let you in to my head for a bit.

I’m already noticing a few things about the dangers for me in having a guide. I can feel the need for sounding clever and correct, to somehow get praise from you.

I know what I need to do to avoid it. I need to ignore you for the time being that I’m trying to figure out the questions. Ignore that I’ll have to write this to you and answer it to my own satisfaction rather than yours. It should be more like you reading my journal than me trying solve your riddles in order for you to say: Yes, that's it.

Beyond this, I am my own biggest cheerleader. Every time I feel like I’m looking at truth, I get so insanely proud of myself, which makes me feel good. I compare myself to others and think something a long the lines of - No one else is doing anything as noble and important as I am doing. What everyone else is doing doesn’t matter at all. I'm awesome.

Now, back to the question(s).
How will you know when you have "got it" ?
I don’t know how I’ll know when I’ve got this.

This may sound a bit weird, but I feel like there’s two answers to this question. One is where I ignore the initial thoughts and look deeper. Deeper is a fuzzy term, but it’s like my brain is working on an answer but without thoughts for about 2-3 seconds at a time, before I wander off. It takes a long time to get to anything worth saying like this. Right now, all I’ve got is: I don’t know. Something from Plato’s work strikes me as accurate: You either don’t know the answer to a question, in which case you won’t know when you’ve found it. Or you already know the answer, in which case, why ask?

It struck me as nonsense at first but it seems accurate here. I’m not yet satisfied though, I want to look at this question some more.

The other way to answer is the immediate thoughts about this. In this case it’s this: I’ll know because all the other people I’ve read about seem to immediately know when the penny dropped. So I’ll keep looking until something in me says: This is it. An aha moment that will make everything fall into place.

One the benefits of having a guide is that you can hopefully point out if I’m just running a fool’s errand with the supposed deeper looking.

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Re: Millionth time's the charm

Postby Lars1 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:04 am

Vince, I hope you'll find this as amusing as I did.

Immediately after posting that I envisioned you saying "Yes, that is all very correct, honest, etc." And then "That is very, very accurate - Can we use that quote on our front page?"

Oh, the vanity.

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Re: Millionth time's the charm

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:20 pm

Good evening Lars
Vince, I hope you'll find this as amusing as I did.
There is joy and pleasure and humor at reading your post, but not amusement.
I can feel the need for sounding clever and correct, to somehow get praise from you.
My 'job' is to ask you questions that when contemplating, you will recognize that the desire for praise, and the self aggrandizement from "sounding clever and correct", are actually chapters in the story of Lars. They are smoke and mirrors.
It should be more like you reading my journal than me trying solve your riddles in order for you to say:
Oh, so you think that you have control over what arises ?
Ok, make this a journal that simply describes experiencing.
Describe the noticing of what arises. Whatever that is.
If an opinion arises about that which arises, describe that. Not the content of the opinion, but the experience of the arising of the opinion. Get that ?
So you read a question, then report what arises as you contemplate it. If you wish, you can also report an answer to the question.
Every time I feel like I’m looking at truth,
Oh, tell about this "truth". Is it more than a concept ? A story ?
I get so insanely proud of myself,
Can yo remember it enough to describe the sensations that you experience when you feel proud of yourself ?
I compare myself to others
Does this enhance a sense of Self or an actual Self ?
I don’t know how I’ll know when I’ve got this.
..but i still get the feeling that you have expectations that you will know when it happens ? Is this right ?
You either don’t know the answer to a question, in which case you won’t know when you’ve found it. Or you already know the answer, in which case, why ask?
How about this one; Every question already contains its' answer. Do answers just arise or are they controlled with effort ?
So I’ll keep looking until something in me says: This is it. An aha moment that will make everything fall into place.
So that "aha moment" will be a recognition, will it ?
When you recognize a familiar face, do you use effort. Is there intention, or does it just happen ?
When we discover or recognize something, is it something that already exists or is it something additional ?

love

vince

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Re: Millionth time's the charm

Postby Lars1 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:25 pm

Vince,
This turned into a huge mess of paranoia, in my attempt to notice it all while contemplating. I'll try again tomorrow, for now I'm dumping the process down below. Skim it if you like, I'll try again tomorrow.
Oh, so you think that you have control over what arises ?
I do. I suppose you would say I should describe how that works exactly.

Okay. I believe that I choose which subject to look at and then I ponder on that. I don't like saying that because I feel I should be beyond that. I've spent some amount of time looking at thoughts and concluding that they just arise from nothing without my intention. Yet in my day to day life, I believe I chose the subject and then I think thoughts. I want to believe the no self version. This is in conflict with another line I've read about how this should be; namely that you can't believe yourself into this.

It strikes me that I would likely jump through any hoop to get this because I believe it's real. Yet every guide has told me that I'm not doing the one thing they're asking.
Ok, make this a journal that simply describes experiencing.
Describe the noticing of what arises. Whatever that is.
If an opinion arises about that which arises, describe that. Not the content of the opinion, but the experience of the arising of the opinion. Get that ?
I think. Describe not just the words of the thoughts but how the thoughts look, feeling sensations, the whole shebang?
So you read a question, then report what arises as you contemplate it. If you wish, you can also report an answer to the question.
Yes, got it.
Oh, tell about this "truth". Is it more than a concept ? A story ?
Sure. In this context truth is when you make feel like an idiot - like now. Okay, I can see I put a huge emphasis on ‘truth’, exalting it to something beyond just whatever things are.

Is truth more than a concept? Okay. The thing with noticing contemplation is that it sort of kills contemplation. I’m just noticing nothing. This whole noticing feels like a dance, where I try to take another step back to get a broader view. Like I’m digging through meta-layers.

I’m thinking: What am I doing, focus on the question. Don’t just notice the content damn it, you’re not doing what you’ve been asked. Confusion - I try to notice the experience I call confusion. Then I name that ‘trying to notice what confusion looks like’.

Oh this is so much better than what I was doing before. More deep, more truthful. I should notice more than the content. Am I completely driven by merely the content of thoughts? There’s a feeling in the chest and a thought that this sounds like an analysis you would appreciate.

Notice how that need is just another story!

It’s so hard to follow this in writing, I’m typing from memory. Big ball in the back of my head sensation and the thought that I should focus more, dig more into this. Maybe I should take a break - No you are doing something right here, keep focused.

Are both versions stories?

Ok, took a break.

Is truth more than a concept? A thought comes up with a feeling. It feels defensive. Yes, it is more than a concept it’s this precious thing that I believe I’m doing right. Don’t take that away from me.

Doesn’t seem deep enough, what I’m doing here. Is that just a thought? Ok. I have a thought. I type that on the keyboard. No, the correct thing is there is a thought and hands typing on keyboard. That should be the end product of that investigation.

Deep breath. The right thing is to notice what is going on, like that there are just hands typing on the keyboard.

Jesus, I’m just going from content of thought to content of thought. Exactly as I was asked not to. Ramblings of a mad man. That kept popping into my head - Wanted to write that phrase because there was some need to conclude something on all of this. Take some distance from it. I liked that it is a commonly known phrase because it makes what I’m doing more normal.

I look at the screen. Ok, there’s looking on the screen.

Third attempt:

Is truth just a concept/story?
Feeling through hands and in chest like that of a shock and then a thought - Yes it could be. Yes it could be, I keep repeating things like I should look at the real truth behind all of this. The mysterious truth that I’m not seeing.

It’s like there are thoughts on what I need to do. But ‘underneath’ it it’s all dead. I see this and think: Yes, that’s true - how exciting. But then underneath that there’s nothing. No substance in the exciting discovery.

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Re: Millionth time's the charm

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:44 pm

'Morning Lars. Ok, i'll wait for your next post.
i did read what you wrote and it is clear to me that you are doing what i asked, and doing it well. You are describing what arises quite clearly.
The content of what arises shows me that you are making a big deal about what arises. i am not concerned about the content yet. Anything that arises is fine. What i wanted to see is if you have the ability to observe and describe what is happening. ..and you can ! Great. So now i know that you have the tool that we need to 'travel this path'.
I believe that I choose which subject to look at
i am not saying that a choice is not made. It obviously is. What i was asking is, if there is a you that makes it.
Have a look at this video and notice the part at the end where Marcus is put into an MRI machine and asked to choose something and the researcher can tell what the decision is some six seconds before Marcus himself knows.
This would suggest that the same brain that generates the thoughts had arrived at a decision way before the thoughts happen that say "I made that decision". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E
Is it possible, or even probable, that the decision that the brain generated, was in fact the result of many conditions ? Is it possible that the conditions such as history, learned consequences, predilections of the organism, believed preferences, etc, the conditions internal to the organism, were only some of the conditions that lead to that choice ? That there were conditions outside of the organism that contributed to that particular choice ?

Now here is a big one; If it is not 'you' that made the choices that have been made ever since you have believed that it was You that made them, did they more or less 'work' anyway ?
What i am saying is that decisions that needed to be made, did happen.
Could they happen better ? Yes, of course.
If you removed the story that 'You" made them, would that make for conditions that would allow wiser choices to be made ?
If you remove the story of 'You' from the process, it also removes the stress over making the decision. It removes the guilt of making a wrong decision. etc.

Now you are right about believing yourself into this, so we need to check what mind comes up with for reality. We check it against our actual experiencing. So do this. Lift your hand.
Now, using what you have shown me you can do, describe how conscious was the decision to lift the particular hand that you lifted. How conscious was the decision to lift it that far. What about the decision about the speed of lifting it ?
Were any of these decisions actually made ? ..or did lifting just happen ?

love

vince

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Re: Millionth time's the charm

Postby Lars1 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:31 pm

i did read what you wrote and it is clear to me that you are doing what i asked, and doing it well. You are describing what arises quite clearly.
Huh. I’m puzzled.
Is it possible that the conditions such as history, learned consequences, predilections of the organism, believed preferences, etc, the conditions internal to the organism, were only some of the conditions that lead to that choice ? That there were conditions outside of the organism that contributed to that particular choice ?
It seems weird but plausible that everything I do is just based on feedback from the world around me. It’s weird when I try to decide what to write it seems like it doesn’t matter. I keep looking for a pattern, as to make sure what I write is something worth mentioning. The idea is, I suppose, that if I see it happening in multiple instances, it’s more likely to be true.

Okay, lifting the arm:
Thought before: I’m going to do that now, so that means it’s a decision. Thoughts of: This is hard, I can’t describe that. What the hell is that supposed to do, doesn’t do anything. Look at the whole experience. Lift again.

I’m focused on what to write as I lift my arm. Focus is somewhere else, while my arm is doing it’s thing.

I can’t see the decision. There's still thoughts of “Yes, that’s good”. I guess I have an idea that shouldn’t be there - the self praising. There’s intermittent silence. Nothing happening, like I’m waiting for the next move. Like two cowboys waiting to draw a gun.

I like it when I include metaphors like that. I’ll include it even when I’m not sure it’s accurate, just because. I don’t know, thoughts stop as I look at the whole thing. This can’t seem very coherent to you with the constant stop and change of direction.

Lifting the hand again. That’s a thought and now I want to challenge myself by postponing the actual lifting.
Thought: Yes, it’s good that I’m challenging myself. Praising myself again. Is it bad?
I’m doing good, you said so Vince. I’m on my way to making this happen. Wuhuu.
Smiling. That’s weird, the smiling - it was a quick fuzzy ball sensation in the head and then just a muscle contraction smiling.

This is good, you’re doing well. Oh, again. I’m thinking this is all well and good to see, but I have a worry that I can’t believe it’s true even if it’s staring me in the face. I’ve noticed before that when I see something a little too mind-blowing, I’ll repulse it. This is from memory, it’s not happening now but there was this sensation of pinning needles pushing out in my chest/torso and in my arms and legs. Sort of a light tickle, sort of pushing me away from what I’m seeing. And then I think: No that can’t be it. That can’t be - it’s too far away from what I know, from what everybody knows. It seems insane to question something so basic of common knowledge.

Break!

I feel pretty good. I feel like if just type whatever comes up, I can’t go wrong. I should maybe focus more on accuracy. Like feeling good isn’t very accurate.

Lifting my hand again. There’s not a lot of process in it. Now looking at my hands on the keyboard. They’re just hands. Wait, isn’t this just what I want to see because it matches with what I’ve read this should be? What is behind that thought? I miss out on the moment sometimes and then I try to recreate it to have another look.

It is weird this stuff. My view or "the view" is like seeing one of those first person perspective youtube videos. You know, those with the go pro camera attached on the head. Seems unpersonal. - I’m celebrating a little again because this seems true. I wrote something true. It’s subtle but I don’t think I like the supposed truth of that. Don’t quite accept it. Looking closer - how does not accepting look like? Uh, I ruin the moment when I take time to write about it instead of keep looking. It helps keep everything separated though and notice things that probably would have slipped by if I just sat and tried to look.

What does not accepting look like? It’s just ignoring and forgetting about this I think.

Again my hands seem to just be there. Like they’re not mine. As I see that conclusion, I make the connection to what I read this is supposed to look like. That should be a good thing I suppose, but I treat it as an alarm bell because I’m afraid I’m faking it again. That’s not how to get this, or so I’ve read.

Okay, my hands are just there in the view. Thoughts just sort of there. Seems like they’re behind the eyes because there is a sensation there when I try to look at thoughts.

Thought again - this is going well. This should work out. I tried to just let that slip by and not write it down to refocus on looking at thoughts. Just had a feeling that I shouldn’t let anything slip by because once you poke a hole in water dam, soon it’ll be a waterfall. Is water dam an english word. I want to look it up, I want to be correct. Okay, this is getting stupid - just refocus.

A few things to focus on - the arm lift, what acceptance look like and what thoughts look like. Already spent so much time looking at thoughts. Look at this typing, thoughts supplying sentences and then that get to the finger tips. I can’t see the connection. I can’t feel the signal go through my brain through the spiral and to my fingers. So. What to look at here.

Just stop. Okay, there’s the thought just stop and then stop - sometimes what ends up being done isn’t what the thought said. I can’t see the decision. I want to say there’s a quick small little ball sensation in the head and then something gets done that either corresponds to the thought or not.

In the middle of this I thought, this can’t be just this. These little things. These can’t be what I’m looking after. But if I write just what I can see I shouldn’t be able to go wrong. I should just accept the simplicity of it, damn it. Or is it the simplicity that is getting in the way? I’m not sure.

Now I’m being interrupted. I’ll have to pick it up again tomorrow. This seems right. And I’m happy that it’s as easy as following what you say is the ‘correct’ thing to do. I know you wouldn’t use that word. But I was afraid that there was something mysterious to the pointing. That I had to find my own way through the mysterious jungle. This is a countermove to the fact that I used to get hung up on trying to do the ‘correct’ thing. By faking it; believing it into being.

Is this dirt pile of my continuos writing okay? I can see how it adds up to your reading time. Maybe as we go along I’ll know which part I can edit out before submitting.

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Re: Millionth time's the charm

Postby Lars1 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:33 pm

Lifting the arm, round 2:

Ok. I look back at the moment where I just lifted my arm and I didn’t really notice much. It just happened, there weren’t any thoughts. I think: That can’t be. What really happened must be this. I think the wording got cut off by the focus to the writing but I could sort of feel an explanation forming. And that explanation seems more likely to be the case because, there’s some relaxation to it when applying an explanation in terms of what I already know.

I get the thought - Ooh, this is so good and it’s accompanied by a sensation in the chest - A nice feeling, that sort makes feel taller and good about myself. And noticing this in return contributes to that feeling as well because it contributes to the story that I’m doing something good here. Ah, I might be using story because that’s what I’ve read around here, so I want it to be that I suppose. But it would seem that it add upon each other, each of the concluding that I’m doing good at this. That I’m good. I’m noticing what I’m doing, then make judgements on how good that is and this serves as a sort of affirmation that I’m doing good. And this affirmation or confirmation gives a feeling of happiness. There’s certain future envisioning to it as well that the happiness is based on. A sense that I’m on the road to greatness and it’s the journey on that path with the end goal in mind that causes happiness. A sense that the road is going to be all good stuff from here on and the rest of my life is going to be a string of joyous events.

I say sense, I guess it’s a thought but it’s not in words. It’s much more subtle to the point where you could accuse me of guessing of it’s meaning although I feel somewhat certain of it.

There’s self praising again which is follow by a countermove of trying to tell myself to be humble. I can imagine how these small steps must look like very, very tiny steps to someone who has already gone through it all. Yet I blow it up as a big achievement and from there conclude that it’s me who’s great for doing this great achievement. It seems more rational that these are tiny step, but this is put in the background because there’s a big feeling in the chest that comes with the conclusion that it’s a big achievement.

Okay, I’ll try to keep a focus on hand lifting part:

I can’t see the connection between the decision and the action. I mean there’s obviously a thought to do it and then there’s the action. But I can’t the link itself, it’s only there when I tell myself that I did that.

The control of speed: I can see how it would seem I don’t control the speed that it’s just moving at it’s own speed. But then I would defend that by saying it is because I am examining it. Normally I would just think to move the arm fast and then immediately do that. But when I look at that statement, it doesn’t make sense because none of those thoughts are saying move arm with the speed of 1 km per hour.

I ask, who/what is examining. There is vision. Thoughts behind that. Ok, so it looks empty beyond that and those things are separate from each other, which I didn’t know. Don’t know what I’m supposed to do with that. Am I supposed to conclude that there’s no you because of that. I look at it and then go back to my normal understanding of how I work. I’ll need something more convincing. I’m being a little melodramatic about in my writing but I think that’s pretty much what’s going on. Basically I feel my intention is to showcase to you, a mix of what happened now and (probably mostly) what I think has been holding me back. And if I can showcase this well enough for you, you can come with a solution for me.

A lot of thoughts that I’m going crazy for doing this examining.

Am I actually making the decision to do anything? There’s no decision to make the thoughts to appear. I can concentrate hard on thoughts and then there won’t be any. Actually I feel I can stop them for a while. I don’t have the interest or energy for testing it.

I can’t see the control of my arm. I can’t see the control on where my focus is. It just jumps around. Suddenly it is on thoughts instead of the arm. What is focus anyway?

I keep reaffirming that I’m doing good by asking these questions. Thought: Is that really what happens - Isn’t it just a thought accompanied, sometimes, by a feeling? Jesus, it gets a little tiring sometimes to keep asking “Yeah, but what does that really look like?” There’s a relief in just being normal.

I don’t like that I write this thing and then I wait in excitement to see your response, hoping for praise. I can’t see this making much a difference if I don’t want to look it in the eye myself. If I’m just quickly noticing and then flinching from it. Then write it down and hope you’ll praise me for seeing that. Your praise won’t make any difference to my life apart from the joy of getting praised.

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Re: Millionth time's the charm

Postby Lars1 » Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:38 pm

First off, I’m not going to be able to post much, if any, in the following week. I’m not to happy about having to interrupt this, but oh well.

Lifting the arm, round 3:

There’s still no connection between lifting the arm. The control of it. There’s thought to move it but there’s no speed control. At best it is an on/off button

Thought: For heavens sake of course I control it. Of course! That’s the argument. That it is a no brainer that I control my hand.. I feel like it’s good thing that I question common knowledge because I’ve read that this is the thing to do in this process. I feel like a rebel, a hero slicing through what everyone think is correct and I’m the only one seeing what’s true.

You say, I worry about the contents of my thoughts. I haven’t ever done anything else, it seems weird to look at it as if it’s just random noise. Dismiss it like it’s someone else’s opinion.



There’s a thought of going over to check my phone. The thought sounds appealing. But there’s a feeling, I don’t think it ever came into words but somehow it still felt very much like it said “No, stay here focus now”.

I try to look for the decision process. When I look at this I sometimes go almost into a freeze. It’s like a character in a game and the player controlling the character has just left the computer to get coffee and the character just sort of stand there.

There are small sensations of little things firing away in my head like ping pong balls, but other than that it seems like there’s nothing going on. There’s a surprising lack of process going on. Like I’m brain dead.

What is going on in here? Looking at the decision process again. Did I just decide to do that? Stupid, meta layer digging. Am I calling the shots? Where’s my decision to have thoughts? Where’s my decision to type. Why and how are my fingers finding their way to the different letters on the keyboard. It’s easier to just explain it by that it’s subconscious. I haven’t ever seen any proof of a subconscious. Things just pop in, I can’t feel any layer beneath that. That’s real though, the subconscious, right? I can’t feel that the earth is spinning either. So there’s limits to direct experience as well. How do you know what’s true?

Decision process: Thoughts of: Get up. No, don’t get up.
Okay, action happens like this. There’s a thought for example to get up, then that’s accompanied with feeling of wanting to get up. Well it’s a good feeling in the head and chest and it makes that decision feel compelling. There’s still no direct link between that and the actual action. If I weren’t encouraged to look closer at this by someone like you, I would have long written this of as a waste of time. I would conclude that things are the way I and most others already think they are.

How do I decide on things? There are thoughts, but I don’t really choose to have thoughts. They happen by themselves? How. It’s weird they can be about this process. Do I decide to have thoughts? How can that thought be about a thought, if there’s no one thinking it? I know it’s not an exact contradiction but there’s something weird about sentences forming about the very fact that sentences are forming. I get an image of text being written on a computer on its own. Just a program running which happen to write text in document about writing text in a document.

I’m not lying here, but I get a feeling that I’m little too much into sounding spiritually clever and deep, because I continue writing about the situation long after the direct experience of it is gone. Why would I do that if I weren’t hung up on sounding clever and deep to you.

It feels like a safe card, when I just mention I have that feeling. Like it’s a cleansing confession of some sort.

Back to the arm:

Do I control it. It seems like I’m not. Like it’s moving and then I tell myself I did that. Or assume that I did that.

I still feel like I told my arms to do these movements, but when I look at the arm moving and then look for my control of that movement simultaneously I can’t see it. But if some asked me to make a fist, I would make a fist. That seems like control.

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Re: Millionth time's the charm

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:33 pm

Morning Lars,
there weren’t any thoughts. I think: That can’t be. What really happened must be this.
STOP ! i don't want the results of your deductions. i do want you to describe the process that occurred.
So here you might say something like this; I wasn't aware of any thoughts. Then a question came up. A question of "how can this be". Then a story of how it might have been arose. That story went like this; "What really happened must...." It was a good story and I believed it really happened that way" etc.
I could sort of feel an explanation forming.
Do you Notice how the mind is obsessed with finding an explanation for everything ? Have you noticed how things get labelled and categorized ?
It is all commentary ABOUT stuff, isn't it ?
It is never the thing itself. Always just referring to ...
Stories attached to something.
So tell me, what is real besides the experiencing that is happening NOW ? ..or to put it another way, Is there anything other than current experiencing that is not concept ? That is not a story about something ?
And this affirmation or confirmation gives a feeling of happiness.
Ah, how old were you when you discovered how to manipulate your emotional responses by thinking in a certain way ?
and the rest of my life is going to be a string of joyous events.
Hahaha. i used to believe that too. Looking back it's hilarious. I was going to shed all of those human traits that weren't pleasant. I was even going to use my mind to win the lottery. What a crack up.
I say sense, I guess it’s a thought but it’s not in words. It’s much more subtle to the point where you could accuse me of guessing of it’s meaning although I feel somewhat certain of it.
This is good. Call it listening to your intuition. Just remember though, the content is still story.
When stories arise, the first thing to 'do' is to evaluate it for usefulness. This will happen automatically later. Useful stories have a certain flavor about them.
Even a story with crap content can be attempting a useful purpose.
Crap stories often are an attempt to handle fear.
I ask, who/what is examining. There is vision. Thoughts behind that. Ok, so it looks empty beyond that and those things are separate from each other, which I didn’t know. Don’t know what I’m supposed to do with that. Am I supposed to conclude that there’s no you because of that.
Not being able to find a 'you', a self, is only the signpost at the first junction. The two paths that branch from this junction are signposted "this way to keep looking for that self - it must be here somewhere." and the other one says "This way to discover what was running the show - or If the show was being run or was it running itself ?"
A sense that I’m on the road to greatness
That is a story with a very good chance of being accurate, but consider this; later when you look back on this statement, you will have a different definition for "I'm", "on the road", and "greatness".
I’ll need something more convincing
Is it accurate to say that the outcome of being convinced of something is a belief ?
i'm not interested in changing one belief for another. ALL beliefs are story. i am pointing at that which you are looking past. That which has always been. i am pointing to where a discovery might happen.
it’s the journey on that path with the end goal in mind that causes happiness.
It's great that a story about what might happen, brings happiness.

Ok, just got your new post... (but continuing to work through previous ones)
A sense that the road is going to be all good stuff from here on and the rest of my life is going to be a string of joyous events.
There is a saying that says something like "After enlightenment, nothing has changed, but everything is different."
What if i told you that the string of joyous events will have not so joyous events mixed with them, but that even the shit stuff is fine ?
What might i mean ?
I can imagine how these small steps must look like very, very tiny steps to someone who has already gone through it all.
We don't actually 'get there' in steps. We just dance around while you discover, recognize what you have always overlooked.
When you recognize a familiar face, is there any effort, or intention, or choice or control present ?
Yet I blow it up as a big achievement and from there conclude that it’s me who’s great for doing this great achievement.
Explain how the Self is affected by "achievement" ? What is the process that happens ?

Ok Lars, work through these questions (above) and i will be back in a few hours to keep working through the rest of your posts.

love

vince

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Lars1
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Re: Millionth time's the charm

Postby Lars1 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:20 am

Hi Vince,
Do you Notice how the mind is obsessed with finding an explanation for everything ? Have you noticed how things get labelled and categorized ?
It is all commentary ABOUT stuff, isn't it ?
It is never the thing itself. Always just referring to ...
Stories attached to something.
So tell me, what is real besides the experiencing that is happening NOW ? ..or to put it another way, Is there anything other than current experiencing that is not concept ? That is not a story about something ?
What comes up is this. There is a searching for answer. It feel’s like little ping pong balls again, but nothing coming into thoughts yet. I’m looking for recognition of this happening to me in memories.
Thought appears: Does this happen? There is feeling of confusion and a thought of: Am I trying to find an explanation now? It’s a feeling of being uneasy. It is weird the connection between uneasy and the sensation. It’s a very quick feeling, I’m not sure why I felt confident saying it was a feeling of being uneasy.

Always commentary about stuff you say, never the thing itself. There’s a sensation when I repeat that sentence for myself, of a wave rushing through my head. It seems like a need to discover this thing - see it. Again, it’s weird when I look at the connection between the actual description of the feeling and what I conclude it to be. At the same time a worry that I will force myself to see, like pushing a template of it over reality.

There’s a period of doing nothing, then thoughts: There’s is waiting for noticing stuff.

There’s more sitting still. Thought: What now? There was a thought, I already forgot what it was but something along the lines of: It seems there is intermittent periods of looking for what to look at now.

Then there were sort of a memory that I shouldn’t try to deduct things. This wasn’t in words it was like a pen shaped sensation poking into the head and there was memory at the same time.

They are weird though these small periods where I’ve sort of ended at a dead end or some sort of smaller finish. There was that memory again, warning me just now. Ok, this is an example I suppose. I reach something else that seems like going down a different road than the original question and I wonder whether I should keep writing about this new thing or go back to the original question. Right before going back to the original question I have a feeling that the question doesn’t really matter. That is until I actually start digging into it again. So it would seem that things only seem important once you start digging into them and engaging with the thoughts. Warning about deductions again.



I hope it’s okay, I flipped the question to, what is left without story. What if I remove that from the equation.
What if I just dropped this entire story of searching for something. What if it’s just a story? What is it without the narrative?
There is looking around, noticing things without a story.
There is experience like that of watching a go pro head mount video again. There’s just a body moving around doing mundane stuff. There’s thought of something I need to go to tonight. That is story too. I think I get the now thing, Eckhart Tolle goes on about. Without story there’s no future or past. Just the moving around doing mundane stuff each moment.

I keep trying to warn myself. Am I making a story about making a story. I’ve equated thought with story, but looking at it there’s just thought. Then I look at that and I get confused. What am I doing. Aren’t I just spitting out random conclusions.
Thought to try and remember looking for activity of labeling and categorization.

There’s a feeling of being lost. Then a thought: I can’t recognize when I’m fooling myself. This is accompanied with a feeling of wanting to express this sorrow. I’m trying to look at this. Then trying to look at the looking of this. I’m not sure what happens in between here - It would seem I just go into a haze and then a thought of something else appears and I follow that. There’s an impulse that I like what I’m doing here because I like the fact that I’m digging into how the brain works. That’s a story, I think. And that thought sort of gets good feedback in the form of a quick reward. Although maybe calling it a reward is making it a story as well.
What I wanted to say was that I recognized the story which you told me to do and that gave the reward.

Am I doing this wrong again? Frustration - All this god damn noticing. Okay, frustration was a label.

I have a feeling that I don’t know what I’m doing. Writing about it seems like my defense. That last thought wasn’t really justified. Again, confusion. I was about to write another sentence about that but I just looked at whether that was a story. I’m not sure there’s that much confusion to it. There’s just. Lack of thought. No obvious road to move down upon. There was a slight feeling there. Sort of an intention to jump onto that thought and build on that explanation. Bricks coming into place and everything making sense even though, the thought I was going with might not have been true. This is the seeking of the explanation part I suppose.

Again, am I actually gaining anything from this or am I just looking at it quickly to get praise and then move on? Maybe this is an expectation to gain something out of my investigations here. Maybe that sentence was just another attempt to explain things.

There’s a thought that I should try and relax into this not knowing area. Then a thought that I should write everything that comes up down. I felt an emotion of motivation - Yes, look closely at all of it. I can’t go wrong if I just write everything that comes up down.

This story of learning how I function sometimes seems like it is turning into a story of me turning against myself.

I’m getting sick of this. I’m posting this now and then I’ll have a look at the other questions.

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Re: Millionth time's the charm

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:24 pm

Ok, waiting on the other questions.
Just a note to refine this process...
When you describe the process that arises, i want you to intentionally put each thought into a 'useful' or 'not useful' or 'other' category.
Oh, and don't follow a thought that takes you away from the original question.

vince

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Lars1
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Re: Millionth time's the charm

Postby Lars1 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:20 pm

Is it accurate to say that the outcome of being convinced of something is a belief ?
Yes, shit, it is. I’m not sure I know any other way of proving something right or wrong other than eventually being convinced. But I can see how it’s sort of vague - just an idea floating around. A fiction.

From reading a lot about this before, I’m guessing you would say something a long the lines of the computer in front of me is there whether I’m convinced of it or not. I’m looking at a plant now. This is obviously nonsense, but I feel that whether I believe it is there is more true than actually seeing it. It’s very different just seeing the plant as evidence of it being there. You mentioned trusting your intuition, but this feels like going against it.

I’m worried I’m engaging with this as a means to creating a story about ‘digging into how I really function’. I can see how that thought is useful - it’s just a warning.

Someone said to me, look it doesn’t matter whether you believe it or not; is it true? Something immediately clicked - I could see the difference between the belief/conclusion of a situation and what actually happened in the situation.

Now, when I try to apply this to looking for a self. It feels as if I’m doing the looking for a self. I’m getting a little dizzy now. I’ve had that feeling before and was always certain it meant I was about to get enlightened. Hah.
Okay, it feels as if I’m doing the looking for a self. There’s a thought to apply the looking I just mentioned. Doesn’t matter whether you believe it, is it true?
There’s sort of a sense of looking around with the same kind of feel as when looking at the plant. Am I actually there, whether I believe it or not? Fear in the form of tingling wave in the chest and a sort of ‘back up’ feeling.

Do I exist whether I believe it or not?
Ok, so I attempted to look. I only say attempted because I don’t want to hear another guide say I didn’t actually look. In my book, I was looking.

I didn’t get enlightened or I sort of didn’t get what I wanted from that looking. So the thought entered that I could at least try to describe what happened as accurately as I can. The first sentence clearly shows that I’m expecting something though.

Last attempt at describing the process: Is there a you regardless of whether I believe it?
There is looking - the panorama view. I’m looking at my laptop in front of me. I’m trying to look at with the same glasses as I did with the plant. I can’t describe it better than the view has the same sort of feel to it. The question above sort invokes that perspective.

I trying to notice whether there is something behind the view. I keep trying to recall the perspective as described. It’s quicker now, there’s just the thought of it and then the change in perspective.

I’m in a noisy environment, so I’m saving this for another day. That is if you don’t tell me what I’m doing here is useless.
There is a saying that says something like "After enlightenment, nothing has changed, but everything is different."
What if i told you that the string of joyous events will have not so joyous events mixed with them, but that even the shit stuff is fine ?
What might i mean ?
I have a few guesses. I’ve had the thought ‘what’s so bad about anxiety anyway?’. It might just be about looking at it differently. I’ve also noticed than when I’ve seen anxiety or fear in other, I don’t really care and I don’t understand why they would care so much. Have you seen one of those movies where two people switch bodies? If I were projected into another body, I don’t think I could care less about the supposedly stressful situations. I wouldn’t care about the pressure of a given situation, like a job interview, because nothing would really be at stake for me.

I would imagine that seeing there’s no you sort of has the same effect. But I don’t know. Does it matter?

I do fear I don’t know what I’m jumping into. But as I understand, you can’t really talk yourself into this. So what I think I’m attempting is to close my eyes and jump into it and just hope I’ll like whatever is on the other side.


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