Third time is the charm!

[matumba]

Hi,
Looks like there are a few of us trying again. Felt like "I" was super close a few weeks ago - but not so sure. Maybe I have already gotten it but have too great of expectations. There has been no realization or lasting moment of clarity. Would like someone else to peruse this thread and see if they can help, or if I'm expecting too much
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... f=4&t=3046

[Xain]

Hi Matumba

Ok, let's start again.

What (if anything) has been realised so far?

When you say 'super close', what are referring to?
Super close to what?

There has been no realization or lasting moment of clarity.

A realisation is certainly possible.
What is this 'lasting moment of clarity' you are referring to?

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Hi Xain,
Thanks for helping out here, you seem to be quite active on this forum.

What (if anything) has been realised so far?

There is no “I” when looking. No controller, no doer, no involvement from a separate entity called me. John is the identifier for this body mind organism that aids in daily conversation. Things happen for no apparent reason, and they don’t happen “to” anyone, just happen. All this is realized clearly through direct experience.

When you say 'super close', what are referring to?
Super close to what?...What is this 'lasting moment of clarity' you are referring to?

I wrote a separate answer, but it was near identical to a prior post which I think sums up the intent:

When consciously looking there is the sense of self that represents the awareness of everything that is as experienced by who/whatever is looking. When preoccupied with business of life and either forgetting or being unable to consciously look, the "I" appears IN PLACE OF the sense of self (not in addition to the sense of self). The control and all the personal feelings that have accompanied "John" in the past are still in the forefront. I know "John" wont disappear, but the realization that there is no "john" identity fades away when focusing on daily routine things.

I hope you can answer the following question directly:
Is there a point when "I" will be aware of looking in the background and at the same time be aware of daily stuff getting done without "me" and "my" association as being the doer?

Maybe this current identity is just the way it is... getting lost in "I" when not consciously focusing on looking? It seems the identity (of John) would have to coexist with the awareness of no "I", but the awareness (of no "I") seems to disappear!

Much Obliged,
John

[Xain]

There is no “I” when looking. No controller, no doer, no involvement from a separate entity called me.

Ok, good.
Just to clarify further, when you said 'looking', what was doing that?

John is the identifier for this body mind organism

Ok - I understand what you mean. This is in the conventional sense. Communication / thought / every-day life.

We can talk about Santa Claus, Superman and Unicorns . . . but truly know that they aren't real.
Is 'John' real? When I say 'real', I specifically mean something that can be found - An 'existing seperate self' - A 'person' - An 'object'?

When consciously looking . . .

I'm interested in your phrase 'consciously' - What do you mean?
Are there two or more types of looking?

When consciously looking there is the sense of self that represents the awareness of everything that is as experienced by who/whatever is looking

I am sorry, but as an entire phrase I am having difficulty in understanding what you mean here.
You did say 'who/whatever' is looking.
So you have identified that there is some 'thing' doing the looking.
What was that?
Or are the only things that can be found ideas and thoughts about what is doing it (for example, 'I', a person)?

When preoccupied with business of life and either forgetting or being unable to consciously look, the "I" appears IN PLACE OF the sense of self (not in addition to the sense of self).

Again, that's a difficult phrase for me to get my head around.
Are you saying that during daily life, there IS an 'I'?

Let me give you a pointer to what I believe you are referring to with the above sentences.

Take two examples - One where there is 'conscious looking', and the other where there is 'the business of life'.
Could you agree that the only difference between these two are simply the level of mental activity (thought) that is involved? Or is it different / more than that?
If it IS the level of mental activity, can you think why that might be (in terms of this 'I', this 'seperate self' that we are looking for)?

Is there a point when "I" will be aware of looking in the background and at the same time be aware of daily stuff getting done without "me" and "my" association as being the doer?

Your assumption here (even though you did put it in quotes) is that there is an 'I', a seperate self that will change.
We can work on this, but I'd sooner 'you' (lol) find out the answer for yourself.

At LU, we take the stance that there is no 'I', no seperate self, nor has there ever been.
So if there is no 'I', no seperate self, then what is going to change?
Have you realised that there never was an 'I' doing daily stuff?

Look right now!
What 'I' is considering my questions?
What 'I' came to LU to speak with a guide?
What 'I' is doing 'daily stuff'?

Can an 'I' be found? Or just the thought of one?
If only the thought of an 'I' can be found, what does that mean?

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Hi Xain,
Great questions there - hopefully the following is coherent and addresses your questions!

Just to clarify further, when you said 'looking', what was doing that?

I honestly don’t know what was/is looking, consciousness itself. That is one question going around this brain.

I'm interested in your phrase 'consciously' - What do you mean?
Are there two or more types of looking?

When referring to “consciously looking” the reference is to whatever (that entity – awareness itself) is aware of the thoughts/sensations going on. The other type of looking is really seeing – as in the actual physical sensation of vision like seeing a red light – as opposed to seeing a thought or identity, which “I” define as looking.

So you have identified that there is some 'thing' doing the looking. What was that?Or are the only things that can be found ideas and thoughts about what is doing it (for example, 'I', a person)?

When referring to Who/whatever is looking it is not a reference to a physical thing, but to the unknown (consciousness ?) whatever, that is aware of looking. Who or what is finding these thoughts and ideas? How are they found? Something is aware of them. That is the reference to the unknown “thing” doing the looking. That looking that occurs either occurs along with, prior to, or after a sense of self or is that sense of self the awareness that is looking? Even though “I” is illusory, is this sense of self illusory too?

Is 'John' real? When I say 'real', I specifically mean something that can be found - An 'existing seperate self' - A 'person' - An 'object'?

John is real as in physical body flesh and blood organism - but that's it.

uld you agree that the only difference between these two are simply the level of mental activity (thought) that is involved? Or is it different / more than that?
If it IS the level of mental activity, can you think why that might be (in terms of this 'I', this 'seperate self' that we are looking for)?

BINGO -!!! I have been thinking on that (and looking at it ). That is where the illusory I rises up and takes over resulting in a feeling of separation or the individual identity “I”. And that is the basis of my question

Is there a point when "I" will be aware of looking in the background and at the same time be aware of daily stuff getting done without "me" and "my" association as being the doer?Your assumption here (even though you did put it in quotes) is that there is an 'I', a seperate self that will change.

It is very hard to put on paper (even digital paper haha) – scratch the “I” – is there a point when awareness will encompass the daily grind without losing the awareness that there is NOT a separate entity (John) doing these things.

Look right now!
What 'I' is considering my questions?
What 'I' came to LU to speak with a guide?
What 'I' is doing 'daily stuff'?

Unknown. - quite possibly unknowable?

Can an 'I' be found? Or just the thought of one?
If only the thought of an 'I' can be found, what does that mean?

Can't find any real "I" so there is just the idea of I, me, mine. And quite frankly "I" do not know what that means at all!
Thanks Xain!
John
PS - after reading my post your comment stuck out

If it IS the level of mental activity, can you think why that might be (in terms of this 'I', this 'seperate self' that we are looking for)?

It appears this is a sticking point - "I" haven't been able to determine why, it just seems to be the way it is.?.?.?

[Xain]

I honestly don’t know what was/is looking, consciousness itself. That is one question going around this brain.

Try to actually FIND something rather than assuming.
Can anything be found that is doing the looking?
Remember (and this is important) we are trying to locate an existing seperate 'thing' . . . an 'I' . . . a person.
There is the belief that there is something doing the looking - What can be found when the experience is examined?

If it is said 'I am looking', is there a real existing 'I' that is looking. Or is the 'I' just a thought - An idea?

Brain? Do you experience a brain doing anything?
I know what you mean by the phrase and you may have meant it in a humourous way - But again, is this a real statement?
Do you experience questions in the brain?
Or is this a thought - An idea about what might be happening?

When referring to “consciously looking” the reference is to whatever (that entity – awareness itself) is aware of the thoughts/sensations going

Sure - Yes.
Specifically when I refer to 'looking' in the context here, I mean examination.
No doubt you tried to identify an 'I' - That was what I mean really by 'looking'. Trying to find this seperate self that is believed to be responsible for things.

When referring to Who/whatever is looking it is not a reference to a physical thing, but to the unknown (consciousness ?)

Once again, please try to limit this enquiry to things that can actually be found.
We could say its 'the unknown' but that certainly isn't going to satisfy you is it?
We need answers here.

John is real as in physical body flesh and blood organism - but that's it.

Ok.
There is a body here. We can say that.
What makes this body 'John'? What makes it 'you'?

BINGO -!!! I have been thinking on that (and looking at it ). That is where the illusory I rises up and takes over resulting in a feeling of separation or the individual identity “I”. And that is the basis of my question

Good.
Can you see that when thought appears, the 'I' appears also.
Consider any normal 'every day' activity where there is no thought.
It's completely automatic isn't it? There is no 'I' doing it.
Can you see that the only time a reference to 'I' appears is when it is thought about?

Unknown. - quite possibly unknowable?

Did you actual 'look' - And by 'look' here I mean examine the current experience?

Check your experience right now - Don't go to thoughts. Really - DO THIS.
Is there an 'I' reading this sentence? Are there two parts to the experience - 'Reading' and 'the reader'.
Examine the experience directly - Where or what is this 'I' that is reading this sentence?
Or is there just 'reading'?
Is the 'I' in 'I am reading this sentence' anything more than just a thought?

Can't find any real "I" so there is just the idea of I, me, mine. And quite frankly "I" do not know what that means at all!

Good. So you can find 'I', 'me' as an idea - A thought - But nothing more than that.
Could it be that 'I' is just a thought? And that is what it has always been?

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Hi Xain,
Thanks for your guidance - apparently "I"ve gotten a bit lazy in my looking over the past week or two!

There is the belief that there is something doing the looking - What can be found when the experience is examined?

Excellent – there is that latent belief. Whatever is doing the looking is doing the examining of the looking and it is cyclical. This entity is not “me” and is really not even an entity – there is just looking.

Brain? Do you experience a brain doing anything?Do you experience questions in the brain?
Or is this a thought - An idea about what might be happening?

There is an installation somewhere (in this body?) that believes or thinks the brain processes information and analyzes facts – I have overlooked this (pun intended :)) as it is in direct opposition to experience.

Once again, please try to limit this enquiry to things that can actually be found.We could say its 'the unknown' but that certainly isn't going to satisfy you is it?
We need answers here.

Spot on - Tying it together on my end.

What makes this body 'John'? What makes it 'you'?

Having been called that since any memory. The physical/mental sensations that enter the field of awareness as opposed to being unaware of the physical/mental sensations associated with other bodies.

Can you see that when thought appears, the 'I' appears also.Can you see that the only time a reference to 'I' appears is when it is thought about?

To be totally honest, the “I” seems to rise from the sense of self when thoughts appear. The second question is clouded by the sense of self – since that is always there, it gives birth to the I when thought about.

Did you actual 'look' - And by 'look' here I mean examine the current experience?Check your experience right now - Don't go to thoughts. Really - DO THIS.Is there an 'I' reading this sentence? Are there two parts to the experience - 'Reading' and 'the reader'.Examine the experience directly - Where or what is this 'I' that is reading this sentence?
Or is there just 'reading'?Is the 'I' in 'I am reading this sentence' anything more than just a thought?

Yes, this is problematic because there is no reader, just reading. Examining as you suggest shows this in direct experience. However examining the feelings that arise resulting from the conclusion (of just reading) there is… maybe resistance? It is that lacking feeling that doesn’t yield to a label. When examining that is when the “super close” feeling comes up referenced in my original post. It’s like “I” am at the precipice, but cant let go of something and don’t know what it is – doesn’t seem like fear, doubt, resistance… maybe a bit of uncertainty – but that is a stretch.

Could it be that 'I' is just a thought? And that is what it has always been?

.
You have given me a lot to examine over the next period - the replies above may be rambling and not very clear, but it is what came up. I will be looking as you suggested because the feeling that arises demands more investigation. I will check in tomorrow - thank you very much.
John

[matumba]

Hi Xain,
Just checking in - I was thrown a surprise party with people coming in from everywhere and haven't had much a chance to examine things. Will checki in tomorrow!
John

[Xain]

Sorry for the small delay - I had a heavy workload recently.
I should be OK from now on.

Whatever is doing the looking is doing the examining of the looking and it is cyclical. This entity is not “me” and is really not even an entity – there is just looking.

Good.
Can you see that anything added to 'looking', for example 'I am looking' is just an idea of what is happening. A thought. An 'I' doing the looking can't be found.

There is an installation somewhere (in this body?) that believes or thinks the brain processes information and analyzes facts – I have overlooked this (pun intended :)) as it is in direct opposition to experience.

Sure.
Please note that I am not trying to dismiss anything, or say something is wrong or incorrect.
The idea of what the brain does and is responsible is very important in the medical profession.
But can you see that 'Brain does it' is just an idea - A thought?
We don't experience the working of the Brain.
Also, can you see that without oxygen, blood, nerve cells, a working heart etc, the brain couldn't function.
Even as an idea 'The brain does it' is, at best, an extrememly simplistic idea of what is happening.

You also said 'Inside this body'. Is this something real in experience, or just a thought about it?
Can you experience the 'an installation on the inside of the body' (in the way you are suggesting it to be)?

Having been called that since any memory.

Ok. Let's just say for a moment, that your memory is wiped. There are no thoughts about the past.
What makes this body 'John'?

Is the only thing that makes this body 'John' an idea? A memory? A thought?

What makes this body 'you'? Could that be just a thought too?

The physical/mental sensations that enter the field of awareness as opposed to being unaware of the physical/mental sensations associated with other bodies.

Are physical / mental sensations in other bodies an actual experience?
Or a thought?

The second question is clouded by the sense of self – since that is always there.

What are you referring to? What is 'the sense of self that is always there'?
Also, what is experiencing this 'sense of self'?

Yes, this is problematic because there is no reader, just reading.

Sure - Again, as above, can you see that 'I am reading' is an idea. A thought.
There is no seperate 'thing', seperate self, an 'I' doing the reading?

When examining that is when the “super close” feeling comes up referenced in my original post. It’s like “I” am at the precipice, but cant let go of something and don’t know what it is – doesn’t seem like fear, doubt, resistance… maybe a bit of uncertainty – but that is a stretch.

What 'I' can't let go of something?
Can this 'I' be found in experience right now?

Have you done any experience (or do you have any thoughts) regarding choice / free-will?

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Hi Xain,
Thanks for your reply. I've had some difficulty looking today - kept getting caught up in thoughts and going off on tangents. I will reply in detail tomorrow hopefully after a bit more focus. I will address your question of:

Have you done any experience (or do you have any thoughts) regarding choice / free-will?

I did view a very eye opening video on the decision making process and neuroscience.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 6S9OidmNZM
Free will seems to be an illusion.
More tomorrow,
Thanks,
John

[Xain]

Free will seems to be an illusion.

Seems to be? Or 'is'?
Let's look into it.

Free-will means that there is something here right now (and 'I', a seperate self) that is capable of choosing from it's own volition.
In order to prove this, we need to locate the 'thing' that is choosing. Find what this 'I' is.
So . . . an experiment.

Choose one of your arms - It doesn't matter which one.
Now, when you feel you'd like to, raise that arm up into the air.

Do this as many times as you want, and in each case examine the experience.
Can you find what was choosing, what was deciding on that particular arm?
In other words, if you say 'I am choosing', what exactly is this 'I' that does the choosing?
Can one be found?
If one cannot be found, could it be that 'it just happens'?
Could it be that 'I choose' is just a thought. An idea?

What do you find when you try the experiment?
Can you find what is doing the choosing?

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Hi Xain,

What do you find when you try the experiment?
Can you find what is doing the choosing?

Free will is an illusion – Whatever is doing the choosing cannot be found.
There seems to be some resistance in looking – don’t know where the resistance is coming from. Lately, whenever “I” look the thoughts just flow and lead to more thoughts and focus goes off on some tangent – Don’t know who is going off on the tangent, but looking ceases and everything focuses on some thought trip of plans or what ifs – even though the thinker of thought cannot be found. Just thought accompanied with feelings of frustration.
Though it is apparent that “I” is an idea or thought, something just doesn’t yield to looking – everything points to no “I”, but the “I” idea has not been really found while looking – not sure why (who is not sure why – don’t know, it’s just a feeling.)
Thank you for your patience,
John

[matumba]

Hi Xain,
Does my above post make any sense to you. There is some frustration on my end here and it is difficult to put into words.
Thanks,
John

[matumba]

Hi Xain,
Trying to really focus on seeing that "I" is a thought - Everything points to it being a thought, but it is not obvious yet. Should "I" as a thought be realized or just deduced? Something feels like it needs or wants to be realized but maybe "I" am just conditioned to expect that?
Thanks,
John

[Xain]

Hi again, Matumba
Please forgive the little delay in response.

There seems to be some resistance in looking – don’t know where the resistance is coming from.

That is natural.
The mind has an assumption that there is an 'I', an existing seperate self responsible for stuff.
Examining the experience directly reveals that this is not the case . . . and the mind rebels.
It attempts to weight two different answers in one, and it can't.
I think it is called 'cognitive dissonance' if you want to look it up.

Lately, whenever “I” look the thoughts just flow and lead to more thoughts and focus goes off on some tangent – Don’t know who is going off on the tangent

Well the assumption (by the mind) is that there is someone going off on a tangent.
But is there?
Could it 'just happen'?

Do you have any control over the thoughts appearing?
Are they even 'yours'?
Could the 'I' that is assumed to be having thoughts, just be a thought itself?

but the “I” idea has not been really found while looking – not sure why (who is not sure why – don’t know, it’s just a feeling.)

I really love your approach - You are really looking into this - Great!

The communication here in the words you are reading are all just thoughts really. Concepts we use in order to communicate ideas. Throught words 'I' can ask 'you' to look.
It should be clear that these words are just ideas only.
But we assume that 'I' is real. Not a concept or just a word, but a real existing object.

If I ask you to look, is there actually anyone looking?
Or could this 'I' just be a thought and nothing more?

Does my above post make any sense to you.

100% clear, John.

maybe "I" am just conditioned to expect that?

Is there a conditioned 'I' here? Or just the thought of one?

Everything points to it being a thought, but it is not obvious yet

Ahh . . . but John, who would it be possible to be obvious to?

Xain ♥