Looking for a guide

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
RosaRohlfing
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:49 pm

Looking for a guide

Postby RosaRohlfing » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:03 pm

Hello
My name is Rosa.
I have heard of this forum a while ago and read through the Gateless Gatecrasher book. Have found some of the interviews and comments very helpful as reflective material.
I noticed a resonance with the need to control thought and feeling for all kinds of reasons.
So far, I can say that reflections on 'what is thought' 'what is I, Ego, Rosa' have created a gap.
This gap seems accessible at all times. It provides me with a choice of -do I want to engage in the 'circus of thoughts' or do I sit back a little and see what emerges.
I admit, at times when things happen that get at me and threaten a sense of identity, the gap appears smaller.
Again, the choice is there, do I shut the doors to feelings or do I allow feelings to come up.
It all seems a process of honesty. Honest feeling, looking...

I would appreciate if a guide would support me through the process.

Many thanks
Rosa

User avatar
EmptySet00
Posts: 1254
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:56 am

Re: Looking for a guide

Postby EmptySet00 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:57 pm

Hi Rosa,

Welcome!

Before we start, I'd like to ask you to watch the introductory videos and read the disclaimer on the home page if you haven't already and agree to some standard ground rules:

1. You agree to post at least once a day, even if it's only "Hi, I'm still here." I will do the same. If either of us will be unable to post daily for any reason, we should let the other know.

2. I will post questions, which prompt your investigation and answers. (I'm here to guide, not to teach.)

3. When you answer/report, please do so with 110% honesty.

4. And when you do answer, please answer from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.

5. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really commit to begin looking for this separate self, this "I"; look for what is the experience throughout the day as this looking happens. And if you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's fine to continue that.

About posting in this forum.

1. When clicking 'Quote' (in a post) or 'Post Reply' at the bottom of the page you get the editor where you can type an answer. You can also preview the answer before it is posted. Experiment as much as needed. Nothing gets posted unless the 'Submit' button is clicked.

2. The forum can log you out without warning. If you're typing a post directly in the edit box here, and you get logged out before you click Submit, your words can get lost. There are two ways to avoid this. One, use the Preview button frequently. That will keep you logged in. Or two, type your responses in a separate program like Notepad first, then copy and paste them into the forum. (But that way you don't get to use the quote function and have to use BBCode to highlight quotes.)

3. Please learn to use the 'Quote' facility, it's a very useful tool.

4. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

Expectations are often an issue in this process. There's a very good list of what this is not about at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_FAQ.html#not

Please tell me what you are expecting from this.
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

User avatar
RosaRohlfing
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: Looking for a guide

Postby RosaRohlfing » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:00 pm

Hi EmptySet00

Thanks very much for your post.
I have had a look at video and other information mentioned.
I agree to the rules.
Will certainly try to post daily, if for whatever reason this might not be possible, I'll let you know.

Re expectations, am hoping for a shift in perception. Maybe a referential 'point'-'knowing', unfixed.
I've had experiences of 'no-self' states, tho, the self as a referential experience re-establishes itself.
Am looking forward to the process.

Thanks, Rosa

User avatar
EmptySet00
Posts: 1254
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:56 am

Re: Looking for a guide

Postby EmptySet00 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:54 pm

Re expectations, am hoping for a shift in perception. Maybe a referential 'point'-'knowing', unfixed.
I've had experiences of 'no-self' states, tho, the self as a referential experience re-establishes itself.
I'd like to clarify something here. This is not about getting into, or out of, any particular state. It's about coming to a different understanding of what's going on, no matter what state of consciousness is occurring.

Watch the following video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNe6fsa ... InkTGSvCrA

If you're like me, at first you thought the dots must be moving in curved lines in order to generate the spinning circle. Then, once the illusion was demonstrated you saw clearly that the dots were all moving in straight lines. But the original appearance of a spinning circle is still there. You just know the spinning circle is made up of dots moving in straight lines.

Seeing through "I" is similar. We take apart the illusion, see how it's put together.

Next question:

When you refer to "I", "me", or "myself", what is being referred to, precisely? It's good to get as clear a sense of this as possible before taking it apart.

ES
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

User avatar
RosaRohlfing
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: Looking for a guide

Postby RosaRohlfing » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:18 pm

Hi ES

Thanks for clarification and Youtube link.
Sure, I saw the dots moving in circular motion and once taken apart and seen, it appears easy to see once put together again.
I'll be revisiting this.

Re I, me, myself:

I, me refers to the person, a human being. 'I' refers to thoughts combined with physical sensations. Memories. A personalized story. An identity made up of believes. Labeling comes to mind, making a choice. Responsibility.

On a personal level,
I'm is sitting on the sofa, reading your clarification comment, I feel stirred up, feel stupid, (thought) “I'm expecting some sort of crescendo, some going through the Warp-zone”. “I don't like to be found out not to know the right answer”. Sensation of fuzziness in the head.
Staying with the sensation of 'fuzziness in the head' a flow of physical sensations, there is no I, no me. Just sensation. The 'gravitational pull' a movement to the familiar is wanting to attend to the storyline of 'me' of the person with a history.

Thanks
Rosa

User avatar
EmptySet00
Posts: 1254
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:56 am

Re: Looking for a guide

Postby EmptySet00 » Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:49 am

Rosa,

It sounds like you've already got some idea of the distinction between thought content and direct experience (DE). This is the basis of everything else we do here, and we'll be coming back to it again and again looking at different aspects of experience.

As an exercise, please find a small piece of food and put it in front of you. Don't eat it at first, instead just imagine what eating it will be like. Then, go ahead and eat the food.

Do you see the difference between the thought- content of imagining what the eating would be like, and the actual experience?

Thoughts are a real part of experience, but their content is made up, conceptual.

If you're not clear on this distinction, let me know, and I'll give you more exercises to work on. Let me know.
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

User avatar
RosaRohlfing
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: Looking for a guide

Postby RosaRohlfing » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:52 am

Hi ES

Am in the midst of the food experiment.
The object, a boiled egg.
Thoughts are sketchy, more engaged with images of eating, jaw movement, swallowing. Sure, have eaten this before. Thinking of the outer soft part and the inner runny yolk. I kind of know what it tastes like...
Then the experience of eating is immediate, rich, surprisingly no runny yolk, as I boiled it just a little to long. Still, makes the experience ever so richer. Nothing that thought could have predicted beforehand.
This morning planning my day, going through the next steps.
Next step, having a shower as something that might make me feel better. Than having the shower is a different experience, again, immediate, rich, warm, full of sensory delights- I enjoy the fragrance of my shower gel.

With yesterdays experience, noticed how this process shakes up fears. A tendency of mine is to keep myself busy when anxious. Noticing a fear of possibly feeling exposed and then launching into the whole memory, past pains old believes story. Am distracting myself with the thought of making myself a coffee. That'll make me feel better...
While under the shower, self view, memories are orbiting around more loosely, become more aware of this 'running away' from my experience tendency while noticing how much self view is filled with anxiety. Then noticed some upward motion, mid-line, of something big, something that is not part of the storyline of anxiety. I was stunned. Felt to big to let it come up, as if squeezing an elephant through a keyhole. Can't say much of what it was. Am still stunned...

Rosa

User avatar
EmptySet00
Posts: 1254
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:56 am

Re: Looking for a guide

Postby EmptySet00 » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:59 pm

Rosa,

Here's another exercise for you:

First, please describe the "elephant through a keyhole" experience you mentioned in your earlier post in more detail. Was it some kind of sensation? How would you describe it if you want to make it as vivid as possible?

Once you've done that, look at your description. Is the description the same as the experience itself? You made that description based on a memory- was the memory the same as the experience itself? How does this memory of a past experience compare with the anticipation of the future experience of eating the egg? Is the thought- content the actual past or future? Does a memory or anticipation actually exist in the past or future, or are they present thoughts about a past or future? Do you have direct access to any time other than now, as anything other than thought content?

ES
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

User avatar
RosaRohlfing
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: Looking for a guide

Postby RosaRohlfing » Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:49 pm

Hi ES

Ok, let's rewind...

Sensations, grey, white marble like in colour, rising upwards and outwards, a clear direction of movment,something wanting to express itself, looked visceral, alife,... there was fear of being overwhelmed by it's size or impact, a sense of truth. An opening. There were waves 'afterwards' of relaxation, of relief, lightness and happines.

The experience left me with an impression that this process is not about the crescendo, which I feel comes as a relief.
Instead, that what came up, the big thing or the elephant through the keyhole seems something that is present at all times.

Reminds me of something Tsoknyi Rinpoche once said while I was on one of his retreats (buddhist background).
The western approach (Psychotherapy)is one of going from story to story and trying to fix these (Crescendo). The Rigpa approach is seeing through the illusion.

Looking at my discribtion of the experience, it is not THE experience. Words are a medium that can try but never reach.
The memory is also not the experience. The actual experience has been feld at a time and everything else following and referring to is not it.
How does this memory of a past experience compare with the anticipation of eating the egg?
Sorry, I've got a knot in my head... Is there a difference between memory and anticipation? The words point towards different directions in time, the content is thought.

When I read the questions the first time, it had some sort of 'shortening elastic band effect' me,'yes, of cause, it's all in the present moment! Memory, thoughts, anticipations. Streams of thoughts. It seems that there is only the present moment. Memories are 'memorisations' of a past experience, anticipations, ideas of a future yet to come.
I have to admit, this is not a direct experience.
A direct experience on this subject is more a sense of confusion, an awareness in need of sharpening.

Thanks,
Rosa

User avatar
EmptySet00
Posts: 1254
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:56 am

Re: Looking for a guide

Postby EmptySet00 » Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:47 pm

Reminds me of something Tsoknyi Rinpoche once said while I was on one of his retreats (buddhist background).
The western approach (Psychotherapy)is one of going from story to story and trying to fix these (Crescendo). The Rigpa approach is seeing through the illusion.
One thing to be careful of here is not to get too caught up in concepts. This isn't "Buddhist", "western", "psychotherapy", or "Rigpa". Can you find any of these things in direct experience?
Memories are 'memorisations' of a past experience
Next exercise: I'd like you to think about one of your earliest memories, as far back as you can remember in your childhood. Remember it as well as you can.

Now, how reliable do you think that memory is? If you could talk to someone else who was in the same place at the same time, would they describe it exactly as you did?

What happens when you remember something? Focus on the experience of remembering.

And one more: You probably came to this process with a number of expectations, whether of what the process itself would be like, or what the outcome might be. They may include things where you wonder if they might happen, but aren't sure they will. Write down a list of those expectations. You can post it here or not, as you like.

Then, look at the expectations in the same way you did your memories. When you experience an "expectation", what is it that you are actually experiencing?

ES
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

User avatar
RosaRohlfing
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: Looking for a guide

Postby RosaRohlfing » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:37 pm

Hi,

thanks. It's about direct experience.

Regarding childhood memories, I have a twin sister. She and I had and still have conversations on this subject.
We share a good amount of history and have explored how we experienced early periods of our lifes. With the outcome that both of us can remeber early memories and have experienced them differently. Different things stood out for each of us. This might have been a memory of being taken out in the push chair by a specific family member or playing together.


Re experience of remembering:
Remembering going for a swim this afternoon.
Remebering sitting on the pool side and jumping in. A 'physical sense' lets me belief that the jump into the water must have happened in slow motion. Sounds around me slow down from a chattering to a deep sound. (a thought) Splash! I remember swimming of straight away, again, a physical sense remains in this slow motion and a heard pulsation is observed, a movement of tension at sternum. Takes endlessly long to lift my left arm and get into the swim....I usually swim with right arm out first.
I swam so an so many length, in all this, a physical sense 'overrides' the memory. Other memories criss cross into todays swim. I swim and at times look at myself swimming. A memory from my childhood of going swimming, how happy I was. Still remember my old swim suit. Then after the swim sitting in the sun and drying off. Physical sense takes over again, tension in chest felt again, memories of eating snacks when I was a child....

Re experience of expectations:
One of my expectations is, to become more confident and at ease when with other people.
Experience is body centred, spiraling upwards motion around the spine, scipping from person to person to settle for somebody in whoms presence I get anxious and want to end a conversation asap. Settle for a person, person moves in and out of view field. Am standing drenched as if a person emptied a bucket of water over me, starting to insult me....Trying more to concentate on the positive expectation, I become light and lift off, a cherry tree next to me, feel light. Remain somewhere off the planet, away from people, away from it all in some sort of transition space...

Rosa

User avatar
EmptySet00
Posts: 1254
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:56 am

Postby EmptySet00 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:00 pm

Good observations of the actual experiece of memory and anticipation.

When a memory happens, when is it happening?

When you anticipate something, do you actually go to the future or just imagine it?
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

User avatar
RosaRohlfing
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: Looking for a guide

Postby RosaRohlfing » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:23 pm

Hi,
From the previous exercicse, I can say that memory happens in the present moment. Noticing physical sensations when recalling memory reassures me that this can only happen in the now. Recalling past events, it cannot take place at any other time then in the present moment. A past event stands for itself, and nothing can recreate the happening in its originality. The recalling of the memory becomes a process of associations,abstractions, thoughts and feelings. I have found the 'recalling a memory exercise' very helpful. Have been pondering on this a little today. Still thinking going on.

Re anticipation:
If I'm honest, it still takes a bit of thinking, of reminding myself, that it's happening in the present moment.
Anticipation suggests a direction. In the end just a thought. It's mind boggeling, that there is no such thing as tomorrow. It's a thought. Easily regurgitated and really 'mind stretching' to accept fully in its reality.
No yesterday as a relivable experience, a moment gone.

I have noticed an underlying layer or current of inertia as a present visceral experience in motion.
It gives me the impression that this process has it's own dynamic...

Rosa

User avatar
EmptySet00
Posts: 1254
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:56 am

Re: Looking for a guide

Postby EmptySet00 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:29 am

Excellent, clear "looking" at direct experience, Rosa!

Memories and anticipations are particular kinds of thoughts. Let's look at thoughts in general next.

Sit quietly and watch thoughts come and go for a while. Close your eyes if it helps you focus just on your thoughts and not on sights or other sensations.

Where do thoughts come from? (Please answer from direct experience, not based on any theory.)

Do you control the stream of thoughts? Can you?

Can you stop a thought in the middle? Can you control what your next thought will be about?

Is there a thinker separate from the thoughts?
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

User avatar
RosaRohlfing
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: Looking for a guide

Postby RosaRohlfing » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:41 am

Hi ES

Thoughts, gently 'breaking' through a crust, noticing a more stream-like expression of thought.
When observing the stream it appears to become more faint, subtle. Observation made of a subtly pulsating stream to a wind like expression. Images pop up, disappear as quickly as they appeared.
Sometimes a move towards a 'me' words appear in fragments. A physical pattern expressing its motion. Then the movement orientates back toward the stream. A simultaneous expression of thought levels, like ocean currents.

The stream-like expression appears to originate from somewhere, though, when observed closely, it has no body base, no tissue base, no fluid base. It appears to come from nowhere or originates from somewhere, I can't say anything about.
The stream happens, 'I' don't make it happen, it happens.
It appears to be a sensation. It can't be interrupted or stopped. If tried, I become aware of a force that is expressed in the stream. The force doesn't seem to have a direction or an intention. More a presence. When aware of the force, it doesn't seem to be about 'thought' at all. Thought is a word that describes something I can recognize.
I can't predict what comes next.

A curiosity arises of, who or what is observing this?
An observation is made, something is looking. Am 'I' looking? I'm thinking, “'I' is a thought.” 'I' comes with a feeling sensation, body based a search of tissue motion expressing a pattern. Am aware of a space in which all this takes place, although the space has no clear edges is not confined.
If 'I' is just a thought, (another mind boggling moment) then ….
there can be resting in I don't no what, just experience. No effort, just a continues settling into. There is then just a process expressing itself.
There is a resistance in the spine to fully give in to this. Still holding on to the tide robe, not quite ready for the free fall.

Rosa


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests