Can someone help me see the truth?

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gregh
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Can someone help me see the truth?

Postby gregh » Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:54 pm

Can someone help me see and know truth? I have knowingly been at the search for 13 years. I have read several of the books on your recommended list (Nisargadatta, Maharshi, Wolfe, McKenna, U.G. Krishnamurti, j. Krishnamurti). I have read some of the threads at LU and am reading the Gateless Gatecrashers. I have met several awakened people and have seen two of my friends wake up at different times. I sometimes feel that I have made “progress” on the search, only to realize that I still have some of the same questions and have seemed to go around in circles. I hope that someone can help me see the truth – no matter what it is, so this whole business can be put to rest.
The statement that , “It is so simple” and “Don’t believe a word that I say, but check it out for yourself” frustrates me immensely! If it is so simple, then why can’t I get it? Why have I been unsuccessful at checking it out for myself? Do I not know how to “look” properly?
If I were to take a written “non duality” test, then I could probably pass it. I want to know the absolute truth from a true knowing, a gut-level knowing and not just an intellectual belief.
Can someone please help???

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Xain
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Re: Can someone help me see the truth?

Postby Xain » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:10 am

Hi Greg

Ahhh that old chestnut of 'intellectual knowing' :-)
I was exactly the same before coming to LU. Perhaps I can help you with the last jigsaw piece . . .
I have met several awakened people and have seen two of my friends wake up at different times.
What is your definition of 'waking up' and 'an awakened person'?
I sometimes feel that I have made “progress” on the search, only to realize that I still have some of the same questions and have seemed to go around in circles.
Inherent within that phrase is the belief that there is a separate person capable of 'making progress' :-)
Do I not know how to “look” properly?
I am sure that you do, but perhaps you are some-how 'trapped' in thoughts and need a little push to break out?

I may be willing to guide you.
Can you tell me exactly what you seek - What would it mean to you?
Do you have any expectations?

Xain ♥

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gregh
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Re: Can someone help me see the truth?

Postby gregh » Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:53 pm

Hi Xain. Thank you for your offer of assistance. Really appreciate your help. Here are my answers to your questions.
What is your definition of 'waking up' and 'an awakened person'?
I believe waking up to be a change in perspective or identity from the point that the awakened person no longer believes in a personal self as the center of their being, but sees themselves as nothing/everything.

I have been told that the term, “awakened person” is not accurate because a person cannot awaken. I used the term to reference those who have stated that they have seen through an apparent illusion of a separate, personal self.
Can you tell me exactly what you seek
I want to know the truth about who/what I am and what is really going on. I want to know if advaita or any other concepts are true or BS. I don’t really care about what the truth about me may be – I just want to know what that truth is. I want to know if “waking up” is a possibility for me.

What would it mean to you?
I believe that waking up will mean the end of “self-imposed” suffering.
Do you have any expectations?
Yes / No / I really don’t know. I would like to think that waking up will happen for “me”, but how can I know if it will? I have seen some wake up that may not have seemed to be “deserving” as much as others who apparently worked harder / longer and may have wanted it more, yet have not awakened. There may be some rhyme or reason here to waking up, but I don’t know what it is. Ultimately, I am hopeful of the possibility of waking up and I appreciate your help.

Thank you Xain.

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Re: Can someone help me see the truth?

Postby Xain » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:28 am

Thanks, Greg.

Great reply - You have a good understanding already of many of the concepts in this area.
I want to know the truth about who/what I am and what is really going on. I want to know if advaita or any other concepts are true or BS. I don’t really care about what the truth about me may be – I just want to know what that truth is. I want to know if “waking up” is a possibility for me.
Well my guiding will focus on one thing only. That is the realisation that 'I', this separate self or 'person' that we believe ourselves to be is simply a thought - An idea.
When this is realised, it is understood that there is no separate self here right now - Nor has there ever been, or ever will be. The entire 'thing' is generated through thought alone.

To 'know the truth about who I am' is a little more tricky. It may be realised that what you truly are cannot be known.
What would it mean to you?

I believe that waking up will mean the end of “self-imposed” suffering.
Cool.
I ask this question in case you may have very grand ideas about 'enlightenment', bliss, 'living in peace forever', 'becoming a special person' etc. This is not what this is about.
Such big ideas about this may bring a sense of disappointment if that particular goal is not achieved. At worst, it may prevent any realisation altogether.
From your reply, I can see that you have your 'head screwed on' and are approaching this is a sensible 'down-to-earth' style. Good.

I would ask you for this guidance to try to put all ideas about non-duality / advaita to one side and approach this very simply. This is not to give you new concepts and beliefs. Not at all. Simply to examine and identify the root beliefs that you have.
Do you have any expectations?

Yes / No / I really don’t know. I would like to think that waking up will happen for “me”, but how can I know if it will?
Notice within this statement there is the belief that there is a 'person' here right now that can have something happen to them. That they can achieve something called 'waking up'. :-)
Follow the process through very simply, and with my guidance . . . well . . . who knows!

Please check these guiding rules which will help us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main site -> http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Xain ♥

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gregh
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Re: Can someone help me see the truth?

Postby gregh » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:54 pm

Will do Xain and I have read the disclosure. Thank you.

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Xain
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Re: Can someone help me see the truth?

Postby Xain » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:00 pm

Short but sweet . . .

Let's start!

The first thing to gauge in our discussion is to find what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

Feel free to reject what I have suggested if they don't match what you currently believe yourself to be.
Tell me in your own words if necessary - What does the word 'I' point to?

Xain ♥

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gregh
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Re: Can someone help me see the truth?

Postby gregh » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:20 pm

Short but sweet . . .

Let's start!

The first thing to gauge in our discussion is to find what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body that appears here in awareness. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you believe that currently you are a person sitting in a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

Feel free to reject what I have suggested if they don't match what you currently believe yourself to be.
Tell me in your own words if necessary - What does the word 'I' point to?

Xain ♥
Yes Xain, this is an accurate assessment of what I believe myself to be.

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Re: Can someone help me see the truth?

Postby Xain » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:11 pm

Cool.

What makes this body 'yours'?
What makes this body 'you'?

Xain ♥

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gregh
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Re: Can someone help me see the truth?

Postby gregh » Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:04 pm

Cool.
Thank you Xain. I have tried to use the quote function on only highlighted portions (your questions), but your entire message keeps getting quote/posted. I have successfully inserted the highlighted portions with the quote function in earlier posts, so I don't know why this is happening. I hope this is not too much of a pain for you. Please see the responses to your questions. Thanks.

What makes this body 'yours'?

The belief that cause and effect, as well as separateness, is in play seems to make “my” body mine. If I stub my toe, then the pain is felt and I register the pain in my body as “my pain” and the apparent body/I connection is made and reinforced. If you stub your toe, then I do not feel the direct pain and I do not associate the pain in your toe as being mine, thus reinforcing a belief in separateness.


What makes this body 'you'?
I take the mind to be “more” me than the body, so I believe that the thinking / interpretation of bodily sensory inputs connects “me” to a body and I call it mine. The body feels more like something I have instead of who I am. I have seen my best friend's dead body in a casket and what was once my good friend was reduced to a useless body without any “life” in him. Seeing my deceased friend like that seemed to reinforce the belief that one has a body and is not necessarily a body.

Xain ♥

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Re: Can someone help me see the truth?

Postby Xain » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:54 am

Place the [ quote ] and the [ / quote ] around the block of text you wish to quote.
Highlighting the block of text and clicking 'quote' will do this.
Clicking 'quote' on its own without highlighting what you wish to quote will (I believe) automatically do the entire block.
The belief that cause and effect, as well as separateness, is in play seems to make “my” body mine.
Cause and effect mean that when this body does something (i.e. YOU do something) is causes something else to happen? So this body 'me' one object, acts on other bodies and objects which are 'not you'?
Separateness meaning there is this 'body' which is mine, and 'other bodies' which are not mine or 'me'?
If I stub my toe, then the pain is felt and I register the pain in my body as “my pain”
Ok - The toe is yours because pain is felt by 'you' when it is stubbed. You do not feel pain in other bodies. Yes?
I take the mind to be “more” me than the body, so I believe that the thinking / interpretation of bodily sensory inputs connects “me” to a body and I call it mine
So thoughts appearing are 'yours'. They are created by 'you'?
Sensory inputs (e.g. seeing) appears to be performed by the body, so thought can state 'I see'?
Seeing my deceased friend like that seemed to reinforce the belief that one has a body and is not necessarily a body.
That is a fair statement.
The natural question would be then if 'you' have a body, then what exactly is this 'you' that has it?

Xain ♥

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gregh
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Re: Can someone help me see the truth?

Postby gregh » Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:58 pm

Thank you Xain. Here are the responses.
Cause and effect mean that when this body does something (i.e. YOU do something) is causes something else to happen? So this body 'me' one object, acts on other bodies and objects which are 'not you'?
Yes, it appears so for both questions.
Separateness meaning there is this 'body' which is mine, and 'other bodies' which are not mine or 'me'?
Yes.
Ok - The toe is yours because pain is felt by 'you' when it is stubbed. You do not feel pain in other bodies. Yes?
Correct. The toe seems to be “mine” since it is appears to be within the confines of a thing I call a body and I seem to associate “myself” with ownership of this body.
So thoughts appearing are 'yours'. They are created by 'you'?
Thoughts seem to be mine when an apparent interpretation of an event, situation, etc. is involved and “I” am affected by the event, situation, etc. I can’t say for sure if these thoughts are created by me. I believe the “correct” response would be that the thoughts are not created by me, but I do not know this for certain either way.
Sensory inputs (e.g. seeing) appears to be performed by the body, so thought can state 'I see'?
I believe the body and thought to be different “things”. I believe that the body (eye) sees, but that a thought does not see. I believe that thought comes in after the seeing and while interpreting the seeing, there could be weak claiming of the seeing by the thought, “I”. I am not sure if language just adds the “I see” to seeing or if “ I” really thinks that it is the one doing the seeing. Wish I could be more clear here, but this is the best, honest answer I can come up with.
The natural question would be then if 'you' have a body, then what exactly is this 'you' that has it?
I don’t know for certainty how to answer this. The “me” that seems to have a body seems to be a sense of presence, or aliveness, or a soul, or life, or whatever! This “me” seems to reside within the confines of the skin of this body and appears to be the owner / manager of the body.

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Xain
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Re: Can someone help me see the truth?

Postby Xain » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:30 pm

Ok, Good.

This gives us a few things to look into.

Now for the next part of the guidance, I want you to try to examine the experience itself - Or at least, try to establish what answers you can get from experience (the senses) and what answers you can get from thought.

We will examine 'the body' to begin with to try to establish what 'I' is and refers to (if anything).
We will being with the senses.

Right now, this sentence is being seen.
In normal speaking we would say 'I see the words'.
So what is this 'I' that is seeing the words on the screen.
Try and examine the actual experience of seeing these words on the screen, and within that experience, is it possible to find an 'I' that is doing the seeing.
Or is there just 'seeing' in the experience?
Try not to go to thoughts if possible. Examine the actual experience.

To put it a different way, are there two clear parts to the experience of 'seeing' - That which is seen, and that which is doing the seeing. Or is there just 'seeing'?

What can be found in the experience? Keep it simple.

Xain ♥

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gregh
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Re: Can someone help me see the truth?

Postby gregh » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:31 am

Right now, this sentence is being seen.
In normal speaking we would say 'I see the words'.
So what is this 'I' that is seeing the words on the screen.
When I look at the sentence on the screen, I just see the words. There doesn't seem to be an "I" that is there seeing the words. There are just the words on the screen. An "I" that sees the words seems to be a felt sense of me doing the seeing of the words on the screen. Sometimes the sense of "I" seems to be there, sometimes it doesn't seem to be there.
Try and examine the actual experience of seeing these words on the screen, and within that experience, is it possible to find an 'I' that is doing the seeing.
Or is there just 'seeing' in the experience?
There seems to be just seeing of the words on the screen. If "reading" occurs along with the "seeing", then there is a stronger sense of "I".
What can be found in the experience?

If no thinking is involved, then there seems to be just the seeing and the sense of "I" is not there or at least is weaker. If thinking / interpretation is added to the event, then an "I" seems to be there as the doer/manager/originator of the action.

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Xain
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Re: Can someone help me see the truth?

Postby Xain » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:36 am

When I look at the sentence on the screen, I just see the words.
Yes, but the task was to FIND this 'I' that was 'seeing the words' - Locate it in experience.
An "I" that sees the words seems to be a felt sense of me doing the seeing of the words on the screen.
Well the words are definately seen and read.
We are trying to locate something we can find in experience.
Did you find a 'felt sense of me' that was seeing the words?
What is a 'felt sense of me'? How does it appear, and how do you know that it is responsible for 'seeing'?
There seems to be just seeing of the words on the screen. If "reading" occurs along with the "seeing", then there is a stronger sense of "I".
Ok, to the experience of 'seeing', there appears to be just 'seeing'.
'Reading' is another one to look at perhaps - Interpreting the writing on the screen into words and sentences / something understandable. What 'I' can you find that is doing that?
If no thinking is involved, then there seems to be just the seeing and the sense of "I" is not there or at least is weaker. If thinking / interpretation is added to the event, then an "I" seems to be there as the doer/manager/originator of the action.
That is a very important discovery!

Try hearing . . . The same thing as above.
Is there an 'I', a seperate self that 'hears' - Go to the experience of it - Can a 'hearer' be found, or just the experience alone? Close your eyes if it helps.
In other words, to the experience of 'hearing' are there two clear parts - The hearer, and that which is heard.
Or just 'hearing'?

Xain ♥

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Re: Can someone help me see the truth?

Postby gregh » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:24 pm

Yes, but the task was to FIND this 'I' that was 'seeing the words' - Locate it in experience.
I cannot locate an "I" in experience.
Did you find a 'felt sense of me' that was seeing the words?

I didn't find a "felt sense of me" that was seeing the words. It just seemed to be something there that was seeing the words.
What is a 'felt sense of me'? How does it appear, and how do you know that it is responsible for 'seeing'?
This "felt sense of me" is the same constant awareness or seeming identity that seems to have been doing the seeing / interpreting, etc. for as long as I have lived or can remember. This "felt sense of me" seems to be with me always, but is more noticeable when thinking / interpreting is involved. I can't say that it is responsible for seeing, only that it seems to be there when seeing / interpreting is involved.
Ok, to the experience of 'seeing', there appears to be just 'seeing'.
'Reading' is another one to look at perhaps - Interpreting the writing on the screen into words and sentences / something understandable. What 'I' can you find that is doing that?
In experience, I cannot find and "I", only this "felt sense" of me, but still nothing tangible.
Try hearing . . . The same thing as above.
Is there an 'I', a seperate self that 'hears' - Go to the experience of it - Can a 'hearer' be found, or just the experience alone? Close your eyes if it helps.
I cannot find a separate "I" either when hearing. No separate "hearer" is found. There just seems to be sounds. Without thinking, I cannot truthfully tell where the sounds are coming from. The sounds, more pronounced and less pronounced, seem to be occurring at the physical location of my head.


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