looking for a guide

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empty_hand
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looking for a guide

Postby empty_hand » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:45 pm

Hi,
I understand (at least intellectually) no-self, but still there was no shift in perception. There is still feeling of being separate and looking and longing too. When I look at what is - I'm aware that this is all there is - but so what? Still there is feeling of lack. I don't have some far fetched expectation - only losing the feeling of lack, the need to still search for more, to get better/to be safe etc.

Probably I'm trying to understand too much and I'm thinking too about what I see while direct looking...
I realized that without guide I will still be losing focus and over-intellectualizing...
So I would like to request help of a guide.

Thanks

(I've read Gateless Gatecrashers (a few times :D) and forum's Disclaimer.
I will also do my best to write everyday and stop reading about "spirituality" and stuff :))

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Lib
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Re: looking for a guide

Postby Lib » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:02 pm

Hi Empty hand
I would be happy to assist. I'll go over guidelines after a bit. Could you tell me a bit more about your expectations, what it means to "get better" and "to be safe?"

Welcome,

Lib

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empty_hand
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Re: looking for a guide

Postby empty_hand » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:09 pm

Thank you :)
Sometimes I expect no-self would be a silver bullet - for my insecurites, my overeating, my control-freak nature. But mostly I hope for stable view - and ending of seeking, struggle with what is. I'm aware that I cannot add anything to
emptiness inside and I'm not doing anything - but still I'm unable to start looking, searching for "big hit/realization". I still want to change "my life" and plan to be safe, to avoid dangerous unknown future :) I know it's just food for the
mind, but there is still a lot beliving in content of thoughts. I'm going around in circles.

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Lib
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Re: looking for a guide

Postby Lib » Sat Jul 19, 2014 2:21 am

I expect no-self would be a silver bullet - for my insecurites, my overeating, my control-freak nature. But mostly I hope for stable view - and ending of seeking, struggle with what is. I'm aware that I cannot add anything to emptiness inside and I'm not doing anything - but still I'm unable to start looking, searching for "big hit/realization". I still want to change "my life" and plan to be safe, to avoid dangerous unknown future :) I know it's just food for the mind, but there is still a lot beliving in content of thoughts. I'm going around in circles.
We spend some time with expectations, EH (okay to use initials?) because they are the main barrier that keeps you from seeing what is already present. The expectation is is that what is arising should be different than what is occurring and then the mind snaps shut with “this couldn’t be it.” So it's important to be aware of what expectations you have for this.

There are (alas) no silver bullets. The thoughts, traits, habits and general nature of the character EH still arise as part of totality of experience. Most people do not experience a big hit - for many it just a gentle dropping away of thought patterns that supported the illusion of a separate self. Try to drop all expectations and if any pop up during the dialogue will address them head on.

Just a little housekeeping. And then a few questions to get you started.

Guidelines for Dialogues
1. Could you please confirm that you agree with the Disclaimer on the home page of the LU site?
2. Try to write once a day if possible, even if it's short or to let me know you won’t be posting for a day or so. It is good to keep a momentum going with breaks as necessary.
3. Responses require utmost honesty.
4. I will ask questions and you will respond using Direct Sensory Experience (DE) to look for answers to the questions. The only way to get to the Gate and beyond is by directly looking at your actual experience of reality.
5. Put aside other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. The focus should be on seeing reality as it is.

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What is your reaction when I say the the you that you think you are is not real? There is no you in real life; none, nada, zero. No “me” to be control, plan or change life in any way. There is just life…flowing. Just what is.

What comes up for you?
Feelings, thoughts, reactions, sensations…list any and all that come up for you.

When you say “my insecurities, my over-eating, my control-freaking,” what does “my” point to, here and now? Is there an entity that can affect these experiences or are these experiences just arising of their own accord? Is there a “me” that can be insecure or are there just thoughts of insecurity arising? Is there a “me” to change life or is life happening of it’s own accord? Is there a me to avoid danger or just a reaction to thought about danger? Look and see.

Just look at see in your direct experience, through the senses - seeing, hearing, touching, etc. Just look like a cat would watch a mouse hole and describe.

Regards,

Lib

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empty_hand
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Re: looking for a guide

Postby empty_hand » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:59 pm

Just a little housekeeping.
I have read Disclaimer and I accept the rules :)
initials are OK :)
What is your reaction when I say the the you that you think you are is not real? There is no you in real life; none, nada, zero. No “me” to be control, plan or change life in any way. There is just life…flowing. Just what is.What comes up for you? Feelings, thoughts, reactions, sensations…list any and all that come up for you.
Actually nothing comes up. Mind stops a bit.
I'm aware that this "me" exists only in thoughts. I have no problem with it. I look at what is and no one is typing right now - no one is experiencing it or thinking about it. No one controls fingers touching keyboard. Maybe there is a little distress and trying to make the seeing permanent and to "get it" or "break through"

When you say “my insecurities, my over-eating, my control-freaking,” what does “my” point to,
here and now? Is there an entity that can affect these experiences or are these experiences just arising of
their own accord? Is there a “me” that can be insecure or are there just thoughts of insecurity arising? Is
there a “me” to change life or is life happening of it’s own accord? Is there a me to avoid danger or just
a reaction to thought about danger? Look and see.

Just look at see in your direct experience, through the senses - seeing, hearing, touching, etc. Just look
like a cat would watch a mouse hole and describe.
"my" is just a thought pointing to concept of me and the feeling in body that another thoughts label as me
- and not to some entity. "I" cannot do anything to affect what is happening and thoughts just arise - and are not caused by "me".

DH :)

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Lib
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Re: looking for a guide

Postby Lib » Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:15 pm

Actually nothing comes up. Mind stops a bit.
I'm aware that this "me" exists only in thoughts. I have no problem with it. I look at what is and no one is typing right now - no one is experiencing it or thinking about it. No one controls fingers touching keyboard. Maybe there is a little distress and trying to make the seeing permanent and to "get it" or "break through”
Sounds good, EH. No one is typing, controlling keyboard. The mind labels experience, it is a “labeling” machine. Thoughts/emotions/sensations arise and the mind labels it “distress.” Is there a me that controls these thoughts/emotions or do they arise on their own? Is there a controller, an entity that is trying to make the seeing permanent or trying to “get it?” Can you see how all experiences are labeled “I,” “me” and “mine?”

No strain or stress necessary here, EH. Continued direct looking is all that is needed for that “breakthrough.”

In direct experience (DE) we look at what is arising in that moment as an experience - thoughts, emotions and sensations - seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling. Continue looking at how the mind labels through all of the senses. Does seeing require a seer? Does hearing require a hearer? Really check it out. For 10 minutes or so look with an “I” attached. “I am typing, I am looking out the window, I am hearing the TV,” etc. Then do it for another 10 minutes or so without the I. “looking out the window, hearing the fan. Can you see that an entity is not necessary for life to flow on it’s own? Is there any part of this that isn’t? Investigate and report.
"my" is just a thought pointing to concept of me and the feeling in body that another thoughts label as me - and not to some entity. "I" cannot do anything to affect what is happening and thoughts just arise - and are not caused by "me".
[

That looks very good. The above exercises may be just to confirm what you are already seeing.

What about thoughts?
Where do thoughts come from?
Are you in control of them?
Can you stop a thought from coming?
Can a thought think?

Hugs,

Lib

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empty_hand
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Re: looking for a guide

Postby empty_hand » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:55 pm

In direct experience (DE) we look at what is arising in that moment as an experience - thoughts, emotions and sensations - seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling. Continue looking at how the mind labels through all of the senses. Does seeing require a seer? Does hearing require a hearer? Really check it out. For 10 minutes or so look with an “I” attached. “I am typing, I am looking out the window, I am hearing the TV,” etc. Then do it for another 10 minutes or so without the I. “looking out the window, hearing the fan. Can you see that an entity is not necessary for life to flow on it’s own? Is there any part of this that isn't? Investigate and report.
most definitely- seeing, heering etc. just happen - no one is doing it. Labels arise without "me" making them. There are just part of experience and there is nothing else - just sensory experience including thoughts and emotions.
What about thoughts?
Where do thoughts come from?
Are you in control of them?
Can you stop a thought from coming?
Can a thought think?
Thoughts are sounds in "my" mind that arise spontaneously out of nowhere.
No control or ability to stop - otherwise I would only think good ones :)
No action is necessary for them to arise and there can be nothing done to stop or control them.
Though is just sound - it cannot do anything especially think.
No strain or stress necessary here, EH. Continued direct looking is

all that is needed for that “breakthrough.”
Thank you :) I really needed to hear it:)

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Lib
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Re: looking for a guide

Postby Lib » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:30 pm

So far, so good.
So how does it all work - what is the mechanism for how illusory self comes about? What is “I” or the self? Is there a controller, a decision maker? Where is the body in all this? Lay it all out.

Hugs,

Lib

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empty_hand
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Re: looking for a guide

Postby empty_hand » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:54 pm

"I" is just thoughts- mind is labeling things because of it's desire to categorize world around. And of course body and whatever happens to it needs a label of it's own - self/me. It comes probably from survival instincts.

no controler - decisions just appear - sometimes with many thoughts

body just moves of it's own - satisfying needs and reacting to world around

Regards,
DH

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Lib
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Re: looking for a guide

Postby Lib » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:05 pm

There is a lot of this that you understand, EH. But there is something that is either not seen or not accepted. So it will be particularly important for you to look clearly and answer with direct experience, otherwise it’s easy to default to thought what you understand intellectually.
And of course body and whatever happens to it needs a label of it's own - self/me.
What is a body? In direct experience.
It comes probably from survival instincts
.
Pure conjecture. Yes?
"I" is just thoughts- mind is labeling things because of it's desire to categorize world around.
So “I” is just a thought. Are “you” a thought? If so, what remains? What experiences? What thinks? What does? What is aware?

Warmest Regards,

Lib

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Lib
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Re: looking for a guide

Postby Lib » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:15 pm

Also, on the last quote. What is mind? Does mind have volition? Desire? What desires?

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empty_hand
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Re: looking for a guide

Postby empty_hand » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:43 pm

What is a body? In direct experience.
just senses - touch/smell/sounds/feelings
Pure conjecture. Yes?
yes :)
So “I” is just a thought. Are “you” a thought? If so, what remains? What experiences? What thinks? What does? What is aware?
I don't exist so I cannot be a thought . Everything remains - thoughts about imaginary me, emotions, feelings etc. There is no experiencer - so each thing experiences itself - there is no awareness outside object of awareness.
Also, on the last quote. What is mind? Does mind have volition? Desire? What desires?
just brain doing it's thing - talking inside, analyzing, protecting the body and non-existent "me"

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Lib
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Re: looking for a guide

Postby Lib » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:05 pm

I don't exist so I cannot be a thought . Everything remains - thoughts about imaginary me, emotions, feelings etc. There is no experiencer - so each thing experiences itself - there is no awareness outside object of awareness.
I’m unclear here as to what you mean. Could you explain in more detail, direct looking of course, what you mean here? Elaborate more than you usually do. All in DE of course.

“each thing experiences itself”

and “there is no awareness outside object of awareness.”

Warmest Regards,

Lib

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Lib
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Re: looking for a guide

Postby Lib » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:09 pm

I don't exist so I cannot be a thought .
Is this your direct experience or are you defaulting?

Do you exist?

Have you seen through the illusion of self?

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Lib
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Re: looking for a guide

Postby Lib » Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:55 am

Just brain doing it's thing - talking inside, analyzing, protecting the body and non-existent "me"
What can you say about the brain, in direct experience only?


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