Guidance needed

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kiltro
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Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:15 am

Hello everyone!
I've read the book Gateless gate crashers and done some LOOKING (or better some looking as happened), now some days passes mainly into the illusion, others days aware of the impersonality of reality.
When LOOKING is happening the absence of an I is quite obvious, sometimes with laughing...
I've passed the gate and the illusion is slowly fading or I've reached the gate but have not done the last step? (in some way this question seems ridiculous...)

P.S. My first language is Italian, however i understand english quite well
Alessandro

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:03 am

Hi Alessandro

Welcome to LU! My name is Fred and I would be happy to accompany you in this investigation.

To get started there are several formalities that we must dispense with first. If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too. http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Additionally, There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least once a day.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin.

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:07 am

Hello Fred!

I'm feeling gratitude for your help.

I understand the importance of honesty, though it's easily confused I'll try my best to.
In regard to the other point it's all ok too.

Alessandro

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:21 am

Great! Thanks, Alessandro

Would you like to tell me a bit about your journey so far? What brings you here? What are you looking for? What would liberation be like? Would it change you?
I've passed the gate and the illusion is slowly fading or I've reached the gate but have not done the last step? (in some way this question seems ridiculous...)
Could you expand on this? What is the ‘gate’? What would be the last step?
When LOOKING is happening the absence of an I is quite obvious
Is the ‘I’ present when looking is not happening? In what way, shape or form?

Take your time, stay with the questions, let them work their way through and let your present experience answer rather than your thinking, or what you feel would be the right answers. There are no wrong answers here.

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:47 pm

Would you like to tell me a bit about your journey so far? What brings you here? What are you looking for? What would liberation be like? Would it change you?
Sure, I've started my meditation practice a couple of years ago, the first motivation was self-improvement, the thought that life must have a meaning and this can't be working all life to obtain whatever is desired so one can be happy. This doesn't work.
Than saw that I was only shifting the context of my desires pursuing from material things to "spiritual" things.
Comes to mind the image of a donkey trying to catch a carrot tie at the tip of a staff held by its rider...
maybe the carrot is happiness, the donkey is the I and the rider is thoughts-feelings
What brings me here... a desire for the truth, sometimes it's there sometimes no.
Liberation is when seeing the absence of an I is present, probably some reaction to events will start to fade..
Could you expand on this? What is the ‘gate’? What would be the last step?
The gate is the limit between seeing and not seeing the illusion of I. The last step is clear that the illusion of self does not hold water.
Is the ‘I’ present when looking is not happening? In what way, shape or form?
No. Thoughts about an I, a sense of personality are always present. But in one case they are seen as events, like birds singing or rain falling, in the other case they are experienced as something that create events

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:07 pm

Hi Alessandro

1)
What brings me here... a desire for the truth, sometimes it's there sometimes no
Can Truth ever not be there? Is it omnipresent or does it come and go? After you read these words. Stop for a moment, step out of your mind stream and come back to your breathing. Notice the seeing, the hearing, the touching, the sensing. That’s the Truth, right there. Whatever is experienced in this moment. Everything else is imagined.
Now does THAT come and go or is it always present?

2)
The gate is the limit between seeing and not seeing the illusion of I. The last step is clear that the illusion of self does not hold water.
So when you said earlier ‘I've passed the gate and the illusion is slowly fading or I've reached the gate but have not done the last step’, which is it? Have you seen through the illusion of ‘I’? Or is it an intellectual understanding, a deduction?
What do you mean by ‘the illusion does not hold water’? Can any illusion hold water? Does the illusion of Santa, or Batman or a unicorn hold water?

3)
Thoughts about an I, a sense of personality are always present. But in one case they are seen as events, like birds singing or rain falling, in the other case they are experienced as something that create events
Really? Can you experience thoughts as creating events? Please show me how that works! Can you look into your most immediate experience and tell me how you see this? Don’t scan your thoughts for an answer, look at what is alive right now, and respond from that place.

I have numbered these question, to make sure you answer all of them … take your time, sit with the questions, always reply from your experience, no concepts, no teaching material.

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:00 pm

1) Sure Truth is always present. I was referring to the desire to see the Truth, sometimes is there sometimes not..

2) It's difficult to answer to this, since seeking guidance is happening I think the question is irrelevant.. It's not only an intellectual understanding, when looking it was clear that the I was not there and it has never been, all events are impersonal, there was not an intellectual explanation for this.. but then asking for guidance comes.
I mean see that the illusion is an illusion at every moment, not acting as a separate self then after a while realizing "aha".

3)Though about giving an answer arise.. typing this worlds... if though didn't raised typing never happens

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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:06 am

Sure Truth is always present. I was referring to the desire to see the Truth, sometimes is there sometimes not..
OK Truth is always here, desire comes and goes. Is it a problem?
It's difficult to answer to this, since seeking guidance is happening I think the question is irrelevant.. It's not only an intellectual understanding, when looking it was clear that the I was not there and it has never been, all events are impersonal, there was not an intellectual explanation for this.. but then asking for guidance comes.
I am not clear on what brings you here. You say a desire for the Truth, which you say is always here. You say that ‘when looking it was clear that the ‘I’ was not here’. You say that you have 'crossed the gate and the illusion is fading'. You also say that you are seeing guidance.
Why is guidance sought? Here at LU we point to seeing with 100% clarity that there is no ‘I’, and for this we look in direct experience, the only place we can test. This you say you SAW. So why are you here? Are there doubts? Are there moments when the illusion comes back and claims to be real? Is it believed in?
Though about giving an answer arise.. typing this worlds... if though didn't raised typing never happens
Can you absolutely be sure that if a thought about writing did not arise, typing would not follow? How do you know this? Scan your direct experience; Do you see a clear link between the two apparent events? Or do they just follow each other and a cause and effect link is established by the mind?
Take another example. I feel hunger, a thought about opening the fridge occurs and then I see this body walking towards the fridge. It looks like an apparent cause and effect relationship is established between a thought and an action. Can we say for sure that there is such a cause and effect link? Does the thought CREATE the action?

Thanks

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:30 am

1. it seems that when desire for truth is not present the illusion is very strong.

2. Sorry but I've not said I'm sure I've crossed the gate, in my first post this was a question (not correctly written), in my last post I've described what happened more than one time.
I say I'm seeking guidance not seeing (meaning I'm in search for a guide)
Yes there are moments when the illusion comes back and sure it's believed in.

3. where I'm at now I can't be absolutely sure that a thought creates action, but I can't be sure it doesn't too.
More digging into this..

please forgive any grammar errors

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:59 am

please forgive any grammar errors
No problem. I get it now. You seek guidance to know if the illusion has definitely been seen or if there is more to be done, right? You see, Alessandro, when the illusion is first seen through, that is the first domino in a long line of assumptions that falls away. For some the whole line collapses at once, for most others, there is residual conditioning, habitual thinking that still continues to kick in, like an engine that has been turned off but continues running for a while. Questioning these residual assumptions can take some time. That is why we have some discussion groups here at LU, where such experiences can be shared between ‘people’ who have seen through the illusion.
where I'm at now I can't be absolutely sure that a thought creates action, but I can't be sure it doesn't too. More digging into this..
OK We’ll dig into this together, and do a few pointing exercises.

First, can you tell me, as you see that ‘the I was not there and it has never been, all events are impersonal’, what are ‘you’? When you say ‘I’, ‘me’, what are you pointing to, these days?

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:25 am

No problem. I get it now. You seek guidance to know if the illusion has definitely been seen or if there is more to be done, right?
Yes, perfect
First, can you tell me, as you see that ‘the I was not there and it has never been, all events are impersonal’, what are ‘you’?
If you are mean during the ‘I was not there and it has never been, all events are impersonal’ observation, there is no one who see this, only the knowing of this without explanation + some tears and laughing.
When you say ‘I’, ‘me’, what are you pointing to, these days?
It's automatic labeling of a group of feelings, thoughts and matter as I. There is really no I, it's a grouping of things.
But when the illusion is present this is not so clear...
Yesterday I had a very bad discussion with my brother. It felt like "he" was attaching "me", two real things. Anger rised for defence of this "me", those things seen as mine. Reaction was attaching what seems of my brother possession.
Today the illusion is really present, thoughts about the discussion, than thought about confirmation that I was right

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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:33 am

1)
Today the illusion is really present, thoughts about the discussion, than thought about confirmation that I was right
When these thoughts/feelings arise, and now seems as good time as any to give them your whole attention, come back to your present experience. Ask yourself: What is alive, right now? What is happening, in actuality? Come to your breathing, and the immediacy of this experiencing of now. See the difference between what IS happening and what IS NOT happening. Maybe a feeling of contraction in the chest? Maybe a fast heartbeat? Maybe a headache? Note them down. Is there a 'you' to be found in that?
See these narrative thoughts popping up, aiming to explain away the experience? Look at the content of these commentaries, the story they tell. This character called ‘brother' and this other one called ‘Alessandro’, are they real? Can you point to them, in the actuality of your experience?

2) Now for an exercise. Look at an object, say the computer screen. Let’s call it the observed. And ‘you’ are the observer. Can you draw a line between this observed, the observing and the observer?
What about the space between the screen and you? Is that observed or observer?
What about the hands? Are they observing or observed? What about the end of your nose? Is that observing or observed? Where is this observer? Can it be experienced at all?
When our thinking and language say ‘Alessandro is looking at the screen’, what is happening, in reality?
Have a good look and let me know what you find.

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:22 pm

1. At this time the upset/angry feeling is quite vanished..
There is tension in neck and jaw, also feeling pressure in the right temple. Thoughts comes up about typing..
The two character are labels to group events, there is no Alessandro as a real thing but the label is used to define this body that is not the brother body for example.


2. It seems observing and observer are the same things, or better there is only observing and observed. Observing and the observed can not be stopped, closing eyes and observation still going. But the explanation given is I have closed the eyes, moving the eyes, same thing..
Returning to the screen, the space is observed.
The hands and the tip of the nose are observed too.
We are saying that seeing of the screen is happening
Can't really find an observer but at the same time seems to have some sort of control over attention... who is that is having control of attention.. eheh
Trying to move the eyes from one observed object to others, it seems that moving comes before the thought of moving this is not clear at all anyway...

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:44 pm

We are saying that seeing of the screen is happening
Exactly, when we pay attention to what is actually happening, that is all we can say. The rest is labelling, and conjecture.
Can't really find an observer but at the same time seems to have some sort of control over attention... who is that is having control of attention.. eheh
This neatly brings us to looking for a controller … let’s look into that together.

Again, scan your direct experience and answer from that place.

1) Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what the focus does, focus on focussing, attention itself. Do you move it? Or does it move by itself? Hold your focus on the breath, see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control? 
What moves the attention? Is thinking in control of attention?

2) Who controls daily activities, like breathing? Do you beat your heart? Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot where you choose to fall asleep?

3) After you read these words, get up and walk across the room. Do it. Now! ;-)
Who controls the walking? Can you show that there is a ‘you’ that controls that walking? Or is there just walking happening?

Thanks!
Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:47 pm

1. If the intention on keeping the focus on something is not present the focus shift from one thing to another automatically.
Focusing on breath, if the thought "focus on the breath" comes up the focus returns to the breath wherever it was, thought seems to redirect intention..
Can't find a "me" "I" the produces intention, or thoughts, but focus/attention seems to follow intention.
When you say close your eyes and focus a decision to do so comes up then intention and then the act itself.

2. Of course those are automatic processes

3. Again, body seems to respond to intention/decisions, like going in one direction and not in another. It seems there's really not and I in this process too.
Where this intention comes from I don't know...

Thanks for helping!


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