DUNEWORKS

[vinceschubert]

Hi DUNEWORKS, first a contract.
Are you willing to;
(try and) post every day ?
To give 120% honesty to yourself and me ?
To relate only from your own experiencing, no second hand knowledge, quoting etc.
To suspend all other seeking type activities for the duration of this ? (reading, viewing, satsang etc.)
Not expect a transfer of knowledge. We are not teachers.
I will ask questions, which i want you not only to attempt to answer them for me, but to communicate the response that you experience to me. The questions are to position you to SEE, to DISCOVER, to RECOGNISE something for yourself.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too http://www.liberationunleashed.com. Please take a look at that.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above, agree to them, and would still like me to be your guide - then we'll begin.

Agreed ?

To use the quote function, first click "post reply"
Then scroll down to my post and highlight (drag mouse over) the question or part of it that you want to respond to, then click "quote" at the top of my reply. This will put the quote in the Reply editor, with the cursor ready for you to type your response.
Now, give me a rant on what your expectations are for being here. Your hopes, desires and what you actually expect might happen.

vince

[DUNEWORKS]

Hi Vince sounds great,
yes I agree my response times will vary as I am a chef so work very long hrs over the weekends but I will respond every day
I do a morning meditation and single pointed meditation visualizing the Dzogchen au symbol do I also put these on hold and is it ok to listen to the liberation unleashed quotes whilst at work on my Ipod

the dzogchen teachings refer to the same theme as liberation unleashed just worded differently my expectations is to obtain a direct experience through your guidance as at present I only have the intellectual and superficial understanding of the letting go of a I and ego, I have been contemplating at work looking into who is having these experiences and still have a very strong concept of myself being real
I am not expecting to suddenly be realised as I know there is lots and lots of baggage of the I and it will probably take lots of clearing my hope is to get a taste of what is real, knowing very likely it is just the beginning of seeing things as they really are looking forward to the process thanks Patrick

[vinceschubert]

Good Evening Patrick,

I do a morning meditation and single pointed meditation visualizing the Dzogchen au symbol do I also put these on hold and is it ok to listen to the liberation unleashed quotes whilst at work on my Ipod

Patrick, it is best if you drop everything for a couple of weeks.

at present I only have the intellectual and superficial understanding of the letting go of a I

Ha, drop that too. We are not looking for an understanding with this inquiry.
Understanding is mind stuff. We are looking for a discovery.
Is it possible that an I never existed, in which case how can you let go of it ?

From the perspective of the organism with the label of Patrick, is everything other than current experiencing, just thoughts about ...? Can you think of any exceptions ?

love

vince

[DUNEWORKS]

seeing the sense of there is not anything that existed in the first place immediately thoughts arise of a past experience when meditating and getting frustrated at not getting anywhere retired to bed and as I lay down I found myself looking at my body lying in bed which seemed exciting and never happened again but cemented the idea of a separate self thinking about it today I can see that this is continually thoughts holding onto memories, re-reading your question the answer is no just thoughts rising can't think of any exceptions thinking to myself am I again trying to intellectualize feel like a dumb ass that just doesn't get it.

[DUNEWORKS]

Morning Vince had normal nights sleep been thinking about what is solidifying the concept of a me and right away comes the confusing thoughts that I would not even be searching to try and find this I if there was not something in the back of my thought processes that was not uncomfortable with the soul theory, then my mind reminds me of when I was 14 and i was helping my mom pack shelves at her workplace when everyone had left and I was having a conversation with her, she was standing next to me, then my mom said to me Patrick you are talking to him, my mom was on the other side of the shop and she had the ability to see what we call ghosts or spirits but none of the family had believed her as I turned to look directly at the man standing next to me he dematerialised, so there is this feeling inside that something exists maybe not a individual I but something this is what has caused me to search, a few weeks back I was listening to a talk by Ken Holmes on reincarnation and he struck a the very core of the I he said there is no I that will reincarnate life after life something will reincarnate but not this person ie Patrick this ceases when we die and a new incarnation starts which has the karmic traits of the me it that is all no continuing of the Patrick, it blew me away for days and my feeling of a continuing of a me which brought up thoughts of is it all pointless and a determination to wake up from all this illusion. Vince I am communicating this to you as, as a guide if you know where my head space is you be able better guide me, you probably are thinking why doesn't he just let go. thanks Vince have a great day

[DUNEWORKS]

thete is nothing else than the thoughts arising, then comes the thought where are the arising from i think from the mind but where is the mind if i was brain dead would there still be mind and thoughts hmm!!

[vinceschubert]

Good Morning Patrick,

answer is no just thoughts rising can't think of any exceptions

So as far as the Patrick organism is concerned, ALL that is real is current experiencing.
Now, this gets more subtle here. There is current experiencing, and then there is the noticing of it. Well, not actually the noticing itself, but the description of the noticing. Word thoughts or images or whatever.
If you haven't seen it, have a look at this BBC show called Secret Me. Lot's of good stuff in it, but pay particular attention towards the end where the researcher shows that when decisions/choices are thought to be made, that in fact they were made in the brain up to 6 seconds before the noticing of it happens. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E

thinking to myself am I again trying to intellectualize feel like a dumb ass that just doesn't get it.

ha, yes, So how can you tell if you are intellectualizing it ?
There are two main reasons that thoughts arise. They respond to experiencing or they respond to other thoughts. Those that express opinion or value judgement, always come from other thoughts. This is intellectualizing. If they are purely descriptive, then it is not that.

I would not even be searching

Is there an I that is searching, or is searching just happening ?

something in the back of my thought processes

Thoughts are a very useful tool, but how many of your thoughts are either repetitions of previous thoughts or just pure rubbish.
The nature of mind (just a label for the thought stream) is that it categorizes and labels and attempts to organize everything to achieve some feeling of satisfaction. Like an addiction, mind craves this. Does that resonate for you ?

wake up from all this illusion.

Once this happens, all of these questions take on a totally different light.

you probably are thinking why doesn't he just let go.

Classic projection (maybe) Is it actually you who thinks this ?

love

vince

[DUNEWORKS]

BBC show called Secret Me. Lot's of good stuff in it, but pay particular attention towards the end where the researcher shows that when decisions/choices are thought to be made, that in fact they were made in the brain up to 6 seconds before the noticing of it happens. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E
Vince, just watched the BBC Video very interesting especcially the point that our conciousness is product by the brain activity in other words we are our thoughts no thought no us an interesting personal thing that I am aware of with myself and this happened whilst watching the video any infornation that leads to awareness I doze off

[DUNEWORKS]

BBC show called Secret Me. Lot's of good stuff in it, but pay particular attention towards the end where the researcher shows that when decisions/choices are thought to be made, that in fact they were made in the brain up to 6 seconds before the noticing of it happens. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E

CONTINUED I mistakenly pushed post before finishing as I was saying I doze off I had to replay the point of the doctor talking about the consciousness being produced by the brain activity 2 times this I have found happens when trying to follow teachings in DZOGCHEN that also try point to no self probably my illusory I trying to keep control

[DUNEWORKS]

Classic projection (maybe) Is it actually you who thinks this ?

yes I see thoughts

[DUNEWORKS]

The nature of mind (just a label for the thought stream) is that it categorizes and labels and attempts to organize everything to achieve some feeling of satisfaction

always understood everything arises from mind but never thought that the nature of mind is just continuous thoughts ariseing

[DUNEWORKS]

Is there an I that is searching, or is searching just happening ?
hmm!! reckon the I is saying want to play this game right let see who wins

[DUNEWORKS]

lots to reflect on and contemplate over to develop a awareness how everything is just flowing, still not really tasting it yet

thanks Vince much appreciated Pat

[vinceschubert]

'Evening Pat,

hmm!! reckon the I is saying want to play this game right let see who wins

Let's look at this closer. You experience these thoughts. Is there any experiencing other than the thoughts ?
You didn't actually answer this;

Is there an I that is searching, or is searching just happening ?

Let me ask it in a different way. How is this searching recognized ? What does the searching consist of ? Is it more than a label for particular thoughts ?

always understood everything arises from mind but never thought that the nature of mind is just continuous thoughts ariseing

What did/do you think that mind is ?

probably my illusory I trying to keep control

If the I is illusion, and therefore not actual, how can it try to keep control ?

love

vince

[DUNEWORKS]

Let's look at this closer. You experience these thoughts. Is there any experiencing other than the thoughts ?
You didn't actually answer this;
...
no the thoughts just arise and dissolve
....
Let me ask it in a different way. How is this searching recognized ? What does the searching consist of ? Is it more than a label for particular thoughts
....
looking at this what I feel is searching is arising from the mind which is thought stream,I used to think to awaken ,now I see it as just an endless arising with no purpose
....
The thoughts that have been flowing today is a feeling of loss because of the assumption that there was a continuing of the I being reborn even if it was just the essence of the persona life after life giving a feeling of something immortal thats blown out of the water now


What did/do you think that mind is ?

I used to think mind was the soul / the I, now I recognize it a continual mind stream of thoughts arising coming from impulses fired from the brain matter with no originator


If the I is illusion, and therefore not actual, how can it try to keep control ?

your right there is nothing to keep control

I am reminding myself throughout the day when possible to reflect on when doing actions or being aware of things that they happen without me the I initiating them

looking at past positive and negative actions in my life how these will fold out when the realization happens yes I realise they won't have any reason to be answered after going through the gate as being no self to experience anyway
the thought arising is where does the understanding of what negative and positive arise when the realization of no self is realised

after writing this I recognise it is once again following thoughts instead of just letting them come and go I was tempted erase it but that would not help you in seeing where i'm at

my ex came around to visit and asked me if I was feeling down, not feeling down more a feeling of uncomfortableness inside, recognising that there is still the letting thoughts make there stories instead of letting them just flow

have a great sunday Vince thank you