Requesting a guide!

[lmellen]

Greetings,
My name is Larry and I live in New York state. I started meditating in the late 60's, and have had some peak experiences. I'm not interested in chasing after any of them now. I spent the first 5 years or so in a Advaita group,
left that group, and spent the next 10 years reading everything I could find, then joined a non denominational meditation group. The teacher was a ex Zen teacher. I still belong to that group.
Sometime in the early 90's I was at a 7 day retreat. I was bored to death, the mind would not calm down, and all I was doing was dreaming about what I would do when I got home. That kind of pissed me off. I kept questioning this and it was then that I realized all I wanted to do was escape by getting spiritually high. This pissed me off even more.
I then started questioning as to what it was that was making my life so miserable that I had to go through all this meditative bullshit. Actually I wasn't miserable at all, and never got an answer.
Sometime in the mid 2000's I realized it was this "I" or "me" that was the problem so "I" tried all kinds of meditations to wipe out this me. I used "Krishnamurti's Impossible Question" for a few years, but that didn't work either. I couldn't hold onto it.
Now the interesting or strange part is that one night I was playing around on Amazon kindle section, and this book was for sale. It was the Gate Crashers book. It wasn't even the book I thought Ithought I was looking for.
It turned out to be the best book I've read in 40 years! There is one section where this person is ranting and raving ( sounded like me ) and I believe it was Elena calmly asks how to get rid of something that doesn't even exist! A light went off when I read that.
So if a guide is available I would like to see through the delusion of a separate self.
Thank you for your time - Larry

[Sarah7]

Hi Larry
My name is Sarah and I would be happy to guide you.

I’m in England Jerry - and usually post after work, OK.

There are also a few standard ground rules before we start:

Please agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer and then we'll begin.

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:

1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

Look forward to working with you.
Sarah xxx

[lmellen]

Hi Sarah7

Please agree to post at least once a day

Agreed
I usually like to post late at night, this gives me all day to look.
If this doesn't work let me know.

Please learn to use the quote function

Done

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer

Read, seen, and agree

Thank you for agreeing to be my guide.
I'm pleased, energized and excited for this opportunity.
Looking forward to beginning!

Larry xxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Jerry
It may be that I have to backtrack a bit in order to find out where you are so I know where to point. OK? And as for when we post - these things have a habit of falling nicely into a pattern - so no worries.

I'm not interested in chasing after any of them now.

Can I ask why?

Sometime in the early 90's I was at a 7 day retreat. I was bored to death, the mind would not calm down, and all I was doing was dreaming about what I would do when I got home.

Are you after a quiet mind? Why?

Sometime in the mid 2000's I realized it was this "I" or "me" that was the problem so "I" tried all kinds of meditations to wipe out this me.

The enemy? So has to be got rid of?

I used "Krishnamurti's Impossible Question" for a few years, but that didn't work either. I couldn't hold onto it.

What can you hold onto?

A light went off when I read that.

Can you explain this for me in a little more detail?

Let's start with a summary of what you're looking for and what you expect to find. If you've already answered some of these, please forgive any overlap and just fill in the gaps where you haven't, and we'll get started.

Have you looked around the site? Do you know what we do here?

What are your expectations for this process?

What is it that you are searching for?

How will you know that you found it?

How will this feel?

How will this change you?
Love Sarah xxx

[Sarah7]

Apologies Larry - Ive called you Jerry!
:)

[lmellen]

Hi Sarah

lmellen wrote:
I'm not interested in chasing after any of them now.

Can I ask why?

Actually they are transitory, I never was able to get any of them back. Some were very powerful.
They are also memories from the past, why be concerned with that. I'm more concerned with seeing who "I"
am in the present, or seeing that there is no "I".

lmellen wrote:
Sometime in the early 90's I was at a 7 day retreat. I was bored to death, the mind would not calm down, and all I was doing was dreaming about what I would do when I got home.

Are you after a quiet mind? Why?

Why not? I'm not talking about a little chatter. It just seems to be rather silly to be escaping into some absurd daydream. At my age they they're unrealistic. I don't argue with them,they are just there.
Sometimes I get a bit down, and I like that because the mind becomes very quiet.
There are many meditation groups that teach almost nothing but controlling thought. I probably read too many of their books.
Plus this has always bothered me from a young age. I remember being is college wondering why that was happening.I just like to be aware of what I'm doing when I'm doing it. Questioning is easier when you are present.

lmellen wrote:
Sometime in the mid 2000's I realized it was this "I" or "me" that was the problem so "I" tried all kinds of meditations to wipe out this me.

The enemy? So has to be got rid of?

I used to think that way. I used to work with Krishnamurti's possible question.
"Can this body mind empty itself of the past?" The past = the self.
He wanted incessant asking of that question. At times at retreat I could count the breathing for a round of sitting, but that was rare. But actually I can't hold anything.
I read the gate crashers book and that cleared the up the problem.

lmellen wrote:
A light went off when I read that.

Can you explain this for me in a little more detail?

Sure, in the gate crashers book Elena is working with some guy and he ranting and raving about having to get rid of the self. She simply comments that it's just a thought, as a thought you can't get rid of it. That cleared up a misconception on my part. You can see the that the "I" as a thought has no actual reality. The book does a great job of cleaning up other misconceptions. I was still thinking that when this "I" was seen through there would be some kind of bliss, this is also not true. And finally I was under the impression that it would take years at some kind of Buddhist Center to realize that that the "I" was not real. This also is not true.

Have you looked around the site? Do you know what we do here?

Yes, read a lot of accounts in the forums.

What are your expectations for this process?

Actually none, just want to see that there is no "I" very clearly.

What is it that you are searching for?

Nothing, trying to undo the "I" illusion.

How will you know that you found it?

Not sure. In actually passing through the gate does this automatically occur
the observer = observing = the observed? Or as Krishnamurti said the observer is the observed.
Is this seen?

How will this feel?

God if I know!

How will this change you?

Don't know, don't care. Que sera sera

Hope I didn't write to much and thank you for taking the time to do this!
I also apologize for any misspellings or bad composition skills.

Larry xxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Larry
Please let me know if I have given you too much to look at.

Actually they are transitory, I never was able to get any of them back. Some were very powerful.
They are also memories from the past, why be concerned with that. I'm more concerned with seeing who "I"
am in the present, or seeing that there is no "I".

Is anything permanent – if so what?

Why not? I'm not talking about a little chatter. It just seems to be rather silly to be escaping into some absurd daydream. At my age they they're unrealistic. I don't argue with them,they are just there.

Have you ever been able to control thought in any way? Do ‘you’ make it come, go, stop etc? Do ‘you’ even decide to think or not? And if you think you control thought –is it anything other than a thought?

Not sure. In actually passing through the gate does this automatically occur the observer = observing = the observed? Or as Krishnamurti said the observer is the observed. Is this seen?

We will come back to this. OK.

So as you look now how do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?
Love Sarah xxx

[lmellen]

Hi Sarah,

Sarah,
I'm answering in 2 reply's, one now, one tonight.

lmellen wrote:
Actually they are transitory, I never was able to get any of them back. Some were very powerful.
They are also memories from the past, why be concerned with that. I'm more concerned with seeing who "I"
am in the present, or seeing that there is no "I".

Is anything permanent – if so what?

Sarah, what I should have included was the fact that once the self is seen as thought and nonexistent
it can't be unseen. Once that's seen that's it. This is referred to many times in the introductory lectures and videos.
Otherwise everything is in constant flux

lmellen wrote:
Why not? I'm not talking about a little chatter. It just seems to be rather silly to be escaping into some absurd daydream. At my age they they're unrealistic. I don't argue with them,they are just there.

Have you ever been able to control thought in any way? Do ‘you’ make it come, go, stop etc? Do ‘you’ even decide to think or not? And if you think you control thought –is it anything other than a thought?

.

Sarah, This is a tough one. I'm not sure what you mean. If you ask can "I" control thought in any way at all, then of course no, not possible. But how do you describe the interaction with thought and awareness? Often I'm driving in the car and "I" (awareness not thought) realizes a daydream is occurring. The daydream is stopped dead in it's tracks. Same when one goes to meditative retreats. Usually the 1st day my mind is all over the place. But by the second day a shift occurs (you can actually feel it). The mind becomes fairly quiet and awareness becomes more intense. I've sat as long as an hour seeing every thought as it trickled up into conscious(they seem to come up from down below, like as from the brain stem) and the seeing ends them. This kind of intensity is very rare. I don't even know where it comes from.
Again,So I assume you are only talking about thought; the thinker. Then that's a big no to all your questions.

Again thank's for taking the time to guide, - Larry xxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Larry
Actually this time is when Im more likely to pick up your posts!

what I should have included was the fact that once the self is seen as thought and nonexistent
it can't be unseen. Once that's seen that's it. This is referred to many times in the introductory lectures and videos.
Otherwise everything is in constant flux

Am I right to assume this is not seen yet then?

But how do you describe the interaction with thought and awareness?

Picture a mirror and its reflections – is the mirror bothered what reflections arise? Does it get rid of reflections it doesnt want?

Often I'm driving in the car and "I" (awareness not thought) realizes a daydream is occurring. The daydream is stopped dead in it's tracks.

Awareness or attention? Do ‘you’ control that either? Or does it go where it wants when it wants?

Same when one goes to meditative retreats. Usually the 1st day my mind is all over the place. But by the second day a shift occurs (you can actually feel it). The mind becomes fairly quiet and awareness becomes more intense. I've sat as long as an hour seeing every thought as it trickled up into conscious (they seem to come up from down below, like as from the brain stem) and the seeing ends them. This kind of intensity is very rare. I don't even know where it comes from."]

But was there control there? Or did it just happen with the thoughts justifying and saying ‘I did this’, ‘there – proof’!

Again,So I assume you are only talking about thought; the thinker. Then that's a big no to all your questions.

Yes!

Again thank's for taking the time to guide

You are very welcome! Love Sarah xxx

[lmellen]

Hi Sarah,

lmellen wrote:
what I should have included was the fact that once the self is seen as thought and nonexistent
it can't be unseen. Once that's seen that's it. This is referred to many times in the introductory lectures and videos.
Otherwise everything is in constant flux

Am I right to assume this is not seen yet then?

Sarah, the only place I can find a self is in thought. The self itself is a concept,thought. This itself is very clear.
I've seen this for quite awhile. I'm also capable of realizing that there is doing with no doer. I walk and the legs move.
I pick up a tea cup and it goes to my mouth, I drink the tea and this takes no directive thought. It just happens. I realize this body/mind is complete, it functions perfectly without the I. The I is just extra baggage.
But somehow this still hasn't sunk in, or hit home or whatever. Maybe it's so simple I'm missing something.
About a week ago I was sitting quietly listening to the sounds around me, and I realized the inner voice(thought memories etc.) could not possibly contain any self. I then stood up looked around and I realized their was no self there either.
So simple with DE, I almost started laughing. But I'm still missing something. I'm don't know what.

lmellen wrote:
But how do you describe the interaction with thought and awareness?

Picture a mirror and its reflections – is the mirror bothered what reflections arise? Does it get rid of reflections it doesnt want?

No ,I realize that, but the daydream still stops??

lmellen wrote:
Same when one goes to meditative retreats. Usually the 1st day my mind is all over the place. But by the second day a shift occurs (you can actually feel it). The mind becomes fairly quiet and awareness becomes more intense. I've sat as long as an hour seeing every thought as it trickled up into conscious (they seem to come up from down below, like as from the brain stem) and the seeing ends them. This kind of intensity is very rare. I don't even know where it comes from."]

But was there control there? Or did it just happen with the thoughts justifying and saying ‘I did this’, ‘there – proof’!

Absolutely no "I" did this. I'm not trying to stop the daydream! It just seems that when "I'm" daydreaming and then realize it, it stops.
I'm think going to have to watch this very carefully!

Again, thank you for taking the time to do this - Larry xxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Larry

the only place I can find a self is in thought. The self itself is a concept,thought. This itself is very clear. I've seen this for quite awhile. I'm also capable of realizing that there is doing with no doer. I walk and the legs move. I pick up a tea cup and it goes to my mouth, I drink the tea and this takes no directive thought. It just happens. I realize this body/mind is complete, it functions perfectly without the I. The I is just extra baggage.

Well seen.

But somehow this still hasn't sunk in, or hit home or whatever. Maybe it's so simple I'm missing something.

Are you waiting for thought to get? Let that question sink in – have a good look.
Are you waiting for something to ‘happen’ to proclaim that you have arrived? Again – look carefully.
Is there an expectation that ‘something’ or ‘anything’ will change or happen?

No ,I realize that, but the daydream still stops??

So? – Out of thought where and how is that significant?

Absolutely no "I" did this. I'm not trying to stop the daydream! It just seems that when "I'm" daydreaming and then realize it, it stops. I'm think going to have to watch this very carefully!

You state very clearly up top that there is no doer. Now look for that lack of you controlling anything EVERYWHERE! Enjoy :)
Lots of Love Sarah xxx

[Sarah7]

Larry - that should say - Are you waiting for thought to get it!!!!! LOL
Sarahxxx

[lmellen]

Hi Sarah,

But somehow this still hasn't sunk in, or hit home or whatever. Maybe it's so simple I'm missing something.

Are you waiting for thought to get it? Let that question sink in - have a good look.
Are you waiting for something to ‘happen’ to proclaim that you have arrived? Again – look carefully.
Is there an expectation that ‘something’ or ‘anything’ will change or happen?

Excellent point, will do as you say.

lmellen wrote:
No ,I realize that, but the daydream still stops??

So? – Out of thought where and how is that significant?

Yes - you are correct. Obviously "I" have no control over daydreaming.

lmellen wrote:
Absolutely no "I" did this. I'm not trying to stop the daydream! It just seems that when "I'm" daydreaming and then realize it, it stops. I'm think going to have to watch this very carefully!

You state very clearly up top that there is no doer. Now look for that lack of you controlling anything EVERYWHERE! Enjoy :)

Good point, will do. I have no control over the start of the daydream and no control over popping out of it.
"I" just wasn't sure what pops me out. Somehow there is the realization that there is daydreaming going on.

Finally, this has been confusing me for awhile:

Sarah, this is probably going to sound really stupid, but if you have absolutely no control, and you had a psycho neighbor, and he wandered over with a bunch of pistols and shotguns, then said lets go rob a bank, I'm sure you would tell him no. You say you have no control ? I'm am not trying to be smart ass

Thanks you for guiding - Larry xxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Larry

Excellent point, will do as you say.
Yes - you are correct. Obviously "I" have no control over daydreaming.

Larry please look and verify everything yourself and then let me know what you notice.

Finally, this has been confusing me for awhile:

A thought – yes? Is anything confusing out of thought?

Sarah, this is probably going to sound really stupid, but if you have absolutely no control, and you had a psycho neighbor, and he wandered over with a bunch of pistols and shotguns, then said lets go rob a bank, I'm sure you would tell him no. You say you have no control ? I'm am not trying to be smart ass

No stupid questions here! This comes up often.
Two things – first preferences happen. Notice this yourself through your day – the hand will go for coffee instead of tea (or whatever!) etc. Point being preferences are part of what is and ‘no one’ chooses them. Look.

Secondly – all is part of what is – like the ying yang symbol – opposites appear to be there – but look at the circle around the apparent opposites. The mirror again does not dismiss certain reflections and retain others. But we can look at this in more detail.
Notice labels in your question and the opinion. Take those out – then look at the sentence.
There is only doing – no one doing it – you have seen this. So why would the next door neighbor be other than that also? Look. If there is no you controlling movement – how can the neighbor?

Please bring any question you may have here and we can look together.
Love Sarah xxx

[lmellen]

Hi Sarah

I want to touch on something else that has been going on for quite a few years.
Back in the 90's our teacher started talking about seeing an object as it existed in reality with no thought interfering with perception. There is a Zen Koan that goes: "The master holds up his staff and says: if you say this is a staff,
you're attached to the name. If you say it is not a staff you deny its reality, now what is it?", or something like that. It took me about 2 or 3 months to actually see that. It is fairly easy to do now. I usually refer to this as shifting. One day in the 90's I was out delivering the mail and there was a 15 story high apartment complex about a 1 1/2 miles away. It was a beautiful sunny day, blue sky, white puffy clouds, etc. The building was bright silver and shone in the sun. Up on the 12 floor balcony was a potted plant with lots of bright red flowers. What happened is that I just looked up at the building and I shifted. What's strange to me is that it seems like I cold reach out and pick one of those flowers! There 1 1/2 miles away! Same story the other night. I walked out on the small balcony of my condo and shifted again. It had been raining and it was night and all the lights were glowing. Everything looked fresh and clean.
The nearest building was 100 feet away, and I still felt like I could reach out and touch it. This happens all the time, but most of the time a definite shift occurs but I don't know what is going on. Sometimes I think I'n just seeing everything with no intellectual interference. The touching part is fairly vague, so is it just a matter of time before this becomes clearer? I can tell you more stories like this, but the point is that I can't explain the what the shift is?

Sarah7 wrote:
But somehow this still hasn't sunk in, or hit home or whatever. Maybe it's so simple I'm missing something.

Are you waiting for thought to get it? Let that question sink in - have a good look.
Are you waiting for something to ‘happen’ to proclaim that you have arrived? Again – look carefully.
Is there an expectation that ‘something’ or ‘anything’ will change or happen?

Sarah -
Line 1 - I'm not sure thought can get it, it's just thought.
Line 2 - When I listen to the video's or read in the forums the guides speak with a very powerful or positive authority.
It seems they have deeply "realized" that there is no self. I'm not so sure but this "realization" maybe what
I'm missing.
Line 3 - I was in the gym the other day and I was watching the other people in the room. What I noticed was that
there was just perception, clean and clear, and then after about 30 seconds thought started shooting
its mouth off commenting and labeling everything. To a certain degree I can see that there is no self, but I
still wonder about statements like this: "You are the perceiving, not the perceiver -Zen" Obviously there is no
self in perception. I assume awareness can be substituted for perception?

Finally thank you for clearing up choice, I suppose we will get to that later.

Thank You for being my guide -- Larry xxx