Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:45 am

Hello Ilona,

I would like to ask you to be my guide if you have a time for it. Sorry, it's a bit long.

English is not my first language, so I hope I can express myself well.

I am 38 years old, and I experienced my whole life as a constant suffering. This led me to about 6 years of psychotherapy, and I also graduated as a psychologist.

About 8 years ago I read Eckhart Tolle's books. I've tried to practice what he mentioned how to be present in the moment, but after a month later my life circumstances changed and I stopped doing what I did. But since then I new this was what I was looking for.

2.5 years ago I became quite ill. I went to many doctors, none of them could help me, so I decided that I will heal myself. I was very determined. But about 6 month ago, I realized that nobody can heal me, nor the doctors or myself. So I gave it up. Surprisingly, in a the next couple of weeks I started to get better.

The reason that I gave it up is because I've become a seeker. I've started to meditate and read lots of books, listened to lots of youtube videos from many people.

Very soon changes started to occur. I started to question strongly held believe systems about myself and the world. I've realized that a believe is just a thought. They have no validity at all. I started not to take my believes about the world or myself seriously.

Something started to happen more often. More and more time a day, I just caught myself be involved in a thought or a story about the past or the future. As if I was sleeping all the time (like imagining something about the future) and suddenly as if a thunderbolt struck me with a realization that it is not true, those thought and images are not here in the present moment and not I'm the one who think them. As if they just happen to me. These small insights happened about 100 or more times a day.

About a week ago, for 2 days it had become very intense. I could caught an arising thought almost immediately. Or using other words: It was seen that a particular thought arise, but after another thought came claiming that "this is my thought, I saw it".

I looked into the mirror, and I felt that that image in the mirror cannot be me. It is impossible. But still, I had a sense of me who cannot be this body.

Later, I saw a video with Tony Parson, who mentioned several times, that there is nobody who does the actions with fee will. It got my attention, so I started to investigate it. I set down and watched all my actions. And I saw that whenever "I wanted to move my hands, or stand up" it wasn't me who wanted it. It just came from somewhere/nowhere, I wasn't there before the movement to decide on what to do.

Next morning, I started to investigate on the me. Where it is? What I found was, that the "me" exist only in thought. I saw it. And still, I'm saying that I thought it, because int the moment of realizing it, seeing it, it just happened, but in the next moment another thought claimed it as "I saw it".

Couple of days later, another insight came, that as soon as the thought 'me or I' arise I suddenly feel kinetically my whole body. So there is an association with the thought me and the feeling of the body.

During these 2 days (a week ago) what happened was that thoughts were recognized as only thoughts almost immediately or a couple of seconds after they had arisen.

But on the third day, came a new thought, stating "That I'm very close. I feel dying. I am going to die". I literally felt that I was going to die, I mean the little me. These thoughts and feelings got stronger and stronger. Another thought arose "I have to communicate with my husband, before I die. This is my last chance. If I don't do it now than maybe I'll never have the opportunity to do that before the "me" is gone." (As a side note, I hardly talked to my husband these days. I simply didn't want to talk, I wanted to be left alone). So, this feeling of dying become so intense that I broke the silence and communicated with my husband.

After braking the silence the insights receded, become less frequent. Since than the situation is the same, with a longing to be free, to realize that there is no me, but at the same time, there is a lot of fear, fear of death. Fear of loosing everything. Fear of disappearing as an individual entity.
What am I looking for? What am I expect?
I''m looking for freedom. Freedom from the grab of thoughts, freedom from the story of me. I want to see the truth. I want to see the reality (if there is any). I want to die as a little me, but at the same time I'm terrified of it.

Thank you.
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Xain
Posts: 3509
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

Postby Xain » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:50 am

Helo Vivien

I have spoken with Ilona and she is 'full' with guiding clients at the moment.

Your English is perfect.

I am happy to guide you if you wish?

Xain ♥

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:39 am

Hello Xain, moondog, and vinceschubert,

I am a bit confused how to use this forum.

Ilona replied me back in private message that she is too busy at the moment, so I wrote a PM to moondog to be my guide. However, after writing to moondog I've realized that he lives in the UK and I live in Australia and the current 9 hours time difference could be an issue, so I searched for somebody who also lives in Australia. I've found vinceschubert and I also contacted him by PM. About 10 minutes after I wrote to vinceschubert I've seen that Xain has replied here, but Xain also lives in the UK.

So I am in a bit of a trouble. I would like to have a guide, preferably in Australia because of the time difference, but if it cannot be worked out, I'm happy to work with anybody, anywhere.

I really want to start this process as soon as possible.

What next? What should I do now?

Thanks for any help, and sorry about the confusion.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:53 am

Hello Xain and moondog,

I just wanted to let you know that vinceschubert is accepted to guide me, so the situation is solved.

Sorry about the confusion.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
vinceschubert
Posts: 3557
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:02 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:45 am

Hi Viv,
there is a lot of fear, fear of death. Fear of loosing everything. Fear of disappearing as an individual entity.
This is understandable when you don't know what to expect. It is also good as it is the organism attempting to protect you. It highlights that there is a story there about pain or negative consequences to this investigation.
Although these are only words, let me say that experience here (and often heard from others) is that after liberation, "nothing changes, but everything is different."
To exemplify this, let me ask you, If the I never actually existed, how can it die ?
Further, how has everything that needed to happen for Vivian, actually happened if there was no Self to do them ?
I''m looking for freedom. Freedom from the grab of thoughts, freedom from the story of me.
If thoughts don't stop, and the story of Vivian continues, but they are seen as having no more veracity than the sound of the refrigerator, would that be freedom ?

love

vince

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:01 am

Hi Vince,
let me ask you, If the I never actually existed, how can it die ?
Further, how has everything that needed to happen for Vivian, actually happened if there was no Self to do them ?
Yes, I can see it intellectually, but not as an experience. My experience is that "I" exist. But it is very strange. Because if I investigate of this "I" I cannot found it. Without investigation I feel this "I" as a mixture of kinetic sensation of the body, thoughts, emotions, believes stored in the memory from the past. But when I investigate it, try to locate one-by-one I cannot found any of them.

This afternoon I felt so frustrated, because whenever I think "I" or "me" or "mine" I literally feel kinetically my body. The thought I is linked to the sense of the body. So it feels that the thought I is refer to the body. But when I investigate it, it turns out that I cannot be the body. Not the image I see in the mirror, but maybe the sense of the body???

So I investigated further, and I can see that I don't direct anything (but I cannot see it always, just if I question it). The body functioning by itself. So it is logical that I cannot be the body. Because if I were the body than I would be the director, but I can see that I don't direct anything, so I cannot be the body.

But still, there is a sense that I'm the body. It's so frustrating.
If thoughts don't stop, and the story of Vivian continues, but they are seen as having no more veracity than the sound of the refrigerator, would that be freedom ?
If the thoughts don't stop but they cannot affect me, I don't mind. OK, I know intellectually, that thought cannot affect me, because I don't exist, but I feel that I exist. The thought "I" refer to the sense of the body. But as I write it down I see, I can feel that it is not true.

Thanks,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:05 am

Hi Vince,

After my reply to you last night, "I decided" that I was going to pay attention to every thoughts and investigate whether I was the one who directed my action. Is it true 100%?

It seems that I decide, especially when there are two options to chose between them. But when I pay attention to the thoughts it becomes obvious that a thought appear saying to chose this.

This noticing was so strong that it even continued into my dreams. I woke up several times and this investigation went on, both awake and in the dreams.

In the morning when the alarm clock rang I didn't want to get up. It seemed so real that I'm the one who didn't want to get up. But it was just a thought. So I'm still not 100% sure that I have no volition, but it seems like. Logically, I can see that it cannot be. And every time I investigate it, it turns out that I don't have any free will.

Another observation:
I was driving the car this morning and "I was caught in a story" about one of my friend. In imagination I was in her house talking with her. But in reality, this body was in a car, driving. But my reality was in her house, I felt my body as sitting in her backyard, etc. It's obvious that in the moment I was in the car, this whole scenario wasn't real. She wasn't real. She was just a fantasy. And I, who sat there with her was also fantasy. But what if this "I" that I feel real right now is just similarly a fantasy as the me sitting in here backyard was just a fantasy?

The problem is that I don't know whether this is just an intellectual understanding, or there was some seeing. I assume that there was a moment of clear seeing but after that thoughts came interpreting it and claiming that I saw it.

Thanks,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
vinceschubert
Posts: 3557
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:02 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:00 pm

Good evening Viv.
I assume that there was a moment of clear seeing but after that thoughts came interpreting it and claiming that I saw it.
This is a great place to start.
What is the difference between an intellectual deduction and a SEEing ? How do you know that you actually SAW something and it's not just thoughts saying so ?
Firstly, it is valuable to recognize that thought will always arrive to claim ownership of any experience. But thoughts will always turn up after the actual experience, no matter what it is.
Direct experience is the SEEing that happens before thoughts arrive. Of course thoughts are needed to describe what was experienced, but we are aware of those thoughts as thoughts. This is different to those thoughts that we are not aware of as thoughts, because we are lost in their content.
So, if we notice that thoughts are present, we can differentiate them from experiencing. SEEing is experiencing.
But what if this "I" that I feel real right now is just similarly a fantasy as the me sitting in her backyard was just a fantasy?
Ha, yes. In a dream I believe I am real. My belief is as strong as the belief I have now that I am awake and typing this. But how do I know that I am not dreaming this.
I can only know that I am dreaming this after I wake up.
I can't know that I am NOT dreaming this.
When I was a kid I dreamt that I woke up and went to school, then my mum woke me up and told me to get ready for school.
Logic tells me that it is feasible that if that happened in a dream then I might have been dreaming that I had a dream.
So in the end, it doesn't matter if this is a dream (certainly it has many dream qualities) This is IT.
Is it true 100%?
A much better question would be "Is it Real ?"
Is current experiencing the totality of what is Real for Vivien ?
Is there anything other than current experiencing that is not concept ?

Here is a rave about truth (which includes the dream sequence above) http://vince-wisingup.blogspot.com.au/search?q=truth

love

vince

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:13 am

Hi Vince,
Direct experience is the SEEing that happens before thoughts arrive. Of course thoughts are needed to describe what was experienced, but we are aware of those thoughts as thoughts. This is different to those thoughts that we are not aware of as thoughts, because we are lost in their content.
So, if we notice that thoughts are present, we can differentiate them from experiencing. SEEing is experiencing.
Yes, yes, exactly. When the seeing happened there was no thought about it. Thought came afterwards.

But here is another scenario that happens a lot:
There was a thought: “I am going to check my emails.” Just right after this thought another thought came: “Me?” or sometimes: “Who?” with a strange feeling that it wasn’t me who was going to check the emails.
Or, I’m talking to my husband: “I’m waiting here.” But immediately a strange feeling with a thought: “It’s not me.”

Very often when there is a thought that contains the words “I, me, my” I feel a sudden strange feeling (or something) that it is not me, and not mine. As I just wrote here that “I feel” or “I wrote”, it’s just not me.
So “my” question is when “I” have this strange feeling with the accompanying thought “Me?” or “Who?” or “It’s not me” does this mean that in these moments there are clear seeing but just right after that labeling thoughts come saying “It’s not me”? Or there is simply a new association between the words “I, me, my” and the thoughts “Who?” or “It’s not me”? But as “I” write this “my” feeling is that probably the first one happens.

Am I writing this? No. The body is writing, the hands. Who is thinking? The body? No. The body is not thinking. Thoughts just happen in the body, in the brain, but the body doesn’t do it intentionally. Am I thinking? The “I” exist only in thoughts, and thoughts just happen. But unfortunately, it is very hard to see. But still the words “I, me, my” are so strange. “I” just had a strange feeling again with the thought “These words ‘I, me’ cannot be me”. Who feels that?

What “I” don’t get is if something is seen then there must be a seer. If there is an object there must be a subject. How is it possible that there is only seeing, experiencing without any object and subject?
Is current experiencing the totality of what is Real for Vivien ?
Is there anything other than current experiencing that is not concept ?
My fist answer would be that there isn't anything other than my current experiencing, but I have to investigate it in the level of experience.

Thanks for the link.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:03 am

Hi Vince,

Continuing the morning post:
Is there anything other than current experiencing that is not concept ?
No there isn’t. Let’s say, I’m looking at the table next to me. The only “reality” is the seeing itself. If I say that I see a table that is just a concept. The word seeing in itself is also just a concept, the only experience is the seeing itself. When I touch it, the only “reality” in “my” experience is the sensation in the hands. If I say that I’m touching the table or some wood, these are also just concepts. In experience there is no such thing as table, in experience there is only sensations. So the only “reality for me” is just what I can experience through the senses, the experience itself. Anything else is just a concept.
Is current experiencing the totality of what is Real for Vivien ?
Yes, the only “thing” that can be real for Vivien is the current experience. It is “real for me” because this is what I experience. But let’s say, the eyes look at something where there is a visual illusion. The visual illusion from the point of experiencing doesn’t exist, because if it cannot be experienced it’s nonexistent for the experiencer. But can a visual illusion be real? Can it be real if it not experienced? It is something similar to the question whether a sound exists if there is no one to hear it.

But what if I was lost in the content of a thought or a story? Like the previous example, when I was driving yesterday morning, and “my reality” was in my friends backyard not in the car. The experiences of the body was there in the car (seeing, hearing, etc), but at the same time I saw the face of my friend, I felt my body sitting in the chair in her backyard, I heard her voice. While the body was driving. The eyes saw the road, and still I saw my friend. So in this case what was my reality? Sitting in the car or sitting in her backyard?

I’ve just had an aha-moment. :) For this body, the reality was in the car, experiencing the hands on wheel, seeing the road. But for me, I was in her backyard, literally. :) I exist only in fantasy, in concepts (deep breath). I AM NOT REAL! It’s so strange, I can see, I can feel that I’m not real! But the me cannot see or feel anything. Who is seeing this?

Thanks,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
vinceschubert
Posts: 3557
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:02 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:18 pm

So the only “reality for me” is just what I can experience through the senses, the experience itself. Anything else is just a concept.
This is excellent SEEing. Just to be somewhat pedantic, i would change "reality" to "what is real". The reason being that "reality" suggests an objective 'thing', whereas we are referring to a relationship. (actually a relatING)
Now to go a little deeper, is the emotion that is the result of a concept, real ? Let's say that you see the table, and arising from this is a story about how beautiful it is (or whatever) and an emotion of joy and wonder arises. Is it real ?
can a visual illusion be real? Can it be real if it not experienced? It is something similar to the question whether a sound exists if there is no one to hear it.
If that visual illusion was a piece of rope or garden hose that you glimpse and mistake for a snake, your body floods with adrenaline and the emotional response is huge. Was it a 'real' snake for Vivien ? The illusion was responded to as if it was a real snake. It was only later that the illusion was seen to be an illusion. Let's go a little further. The tree in the forest falls. There is a vibration of air instigated by the falling. This travels for a finite distance. If you are within this distance, when the vibrating air touches your ear drum, it causes it to vibrate. This in turn causes some little bones on the inside of the eardrum to move, which in turn generates a electrochemical response in a nerve. This travels up the nerve to the brain where a complex process of interpretation occurs. The result of this process is that a sound is heard. Then it is compared with previous experience and 'recognised' as a tree falling sound. Stories then arise about cause and effect.
So, let me ask you, what part of that process could you eliminate without eliminating 'sound' ?
Can you see that there is no objective sound - ever. That there is only hearing ? (before thoughts arrive)
So in this case what was my reality? Sitting in the car or sitting in her backyard?
What was real for Viv, was her experiencing.
Is there ever any object/subject in actuality ? ..or is experiencing ALL that is real for Vivien ?
I AM NOT REAL! It’s so strange, I can see, I can feel that I’m not real! But the me cannot see or feel anything.
Excellent, yes. It is strange because all of our conditioning sucked us so deeply into the illusion. Really a Delusion.
Who is seeing this?
Is there a subject (who) seeing an object (this) ? ..or is there just seeing ?

love

vince

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:14 am

Hi Vince,
[quote=”Vince”]Let's say that you see the table, and arising from this is a story about how beautiful it is (or whatever) and an emotion of joy and wonder arises. Is it real ?[/quote]
The emotion is real, but not the word joy or wonder but the actual sensations in the body that are labelled as joy or wonder. The sensation of the relaxing muscles, the sensation of the smile on the face, and the sensation of other pleasant feelings in the body.

[quote=”Vince”] If that visual illusion was a piece of rope or garden hose that you glimpse and mistake for a snake, your body floods with adrenaline and the emotional response is huge. Was it a 'real' snake for Vivien ?[/quote]
Yes, until the illusion was seen the snake was real for Vivien, alongside with all the emotional responses. After the illusion is seen, the emotional response can still last for some time, so until the emotional response is completely gone, it is also real for Vivien.

[quote=”Vince”] The tree in the forest falls. There is a vibration of air instigated by the falling. This travels for a finite distance. If you are within this distance, when the vibrating air touches your ear drum, it causes it to vibrate. This in turn causes some little bones on the inside of the eardrum to move, which in turn generates a electrochemical response in a nerve. This travels up the nerve to the brain where a complex process of interpretation occurs. The result of this process is that a sound is heard. Then it is compared with previous experience and 'recognised' as a tree falling sound. Stories then arise about cause and effect.
So, let me ask you, what part of that process could you eliminate without eliminating 'sound' ?[/quote]
The comparison of the heard voice with previous experience, which leads to the ‘recognition’ of a tree falling sound, could be eliminated without eliminating the ‘sound’ itself.

After reading this I thought that how this intellectual questioning could help me to become “liberated”? A couple of hours later I was walking in a botanical garden. Suddenly, I saw a truck working on the garden beds and at the same time I heard the sound of the truck. In that moment, there was a recognition of the usefulness of this “intellectual questioning”. Seeing the truck and hearing the sound of the truck is linked in the brain, and there was an interpretation that the sound belongs to the truck. But, in direct experience, there isn’t any linkage between the hearing of the sound and the seeing of the truck. These are just simultaneously occurring phenomena in the current experience. In that moment, I understood, what some ‘liberated’ people mean by that “there is no cause and effect”.
Later, I was sitting on the bank of a pond. The same recognition happened. In direct experience, the tree at the bank of the pond is not the cause of the image of a tree reflected on the surface of the pond. I’m not sure, whether there was a real seeing or just an intellectual understanding. Or maybe a few second of seeing and then labelling and interpreting.

I’m a bit confused about the wording. Several times a day seeing happens, but a few seconds later there is a labelling that “I saw it”. When I write about the experience to you I don’t know which wording I should use: “seeing happened” or “I saw it”. Because, when I’m writing about it, in this moment, what comes up is that I saw it. However, in the moment, there was a seeing, and a few seconds later a labelling that I saw it. So I want to be honest with you, but both cases feel deceiving.

[quote=”Vince”] Can you see that there is no objective sound - ever. That there is only hearing ? (before thoughts arrive) [/quote]
Yes, I can see that there is no objective sound, because the sound is inseparable of the hearing apparatus. Hearing cannot happen if any of them is missing.

[quote=”Vince”] What was real for Viv, was her experiencing.
Is there ever any object/subject in actuality ? ..or is experiencing ALL that is real for Vivien ?
Is there a subject (who) seeing an object (this) ? ..or is there just seeing ? [/quote]

This is what I was asking in my yesterday morning’s post. This is what I cannot get. For me, there must be both a subject and an object to seeing emerge. Both are conditions that need to be present. There must be a living organism with intact eyes and a brain and the seen object in order to seeing happen. But, like in gestalt, the whole is other than the sum of its parts, seeing is more, it’s something new or else.

Something else. I wrote 2 posts both yesterday and the day before yesterday, but I’m not sure whether you saw all four of them, since you replied both days just to the second once. Or was it intentionally? Is it better if I write only one post a day, or not writing a new one until you replied to the previous one?

Thanks,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:16 am

Hi Vince,
(There was some issue with the quoting, so I resubmitted it again.)
Let's say that you see the table, and arising from this is a story about how beautiful it is (or whatever) and an emotion of joy and wonder arises. Is it real ?
The emotion is real, but not the word joy or wonder but the actual sensations in the body that are labelled as joy or wonder. The sensation of the relaxing muscles, the sensation of the smile on the face, and the sensation of other pleasant feelings in the body.
If that visual illusion was a piece of rope or garden hose that you glimpse and mistake for a snake, your body floods with adrenaline and the emotional response is huge. Was it a 'real' snake for Vivien ?
Yes, until the illusion was seen the snake was real for Vivien, alongside with all the emotional responses. After the illusion is seen, the emotional response can still last for some time, so until the emotional response is completely gone, it is also real for Vivien.
The tree in the forest falls. There is a vibration of air instigated by the falling. This travels for a finite distance. If you are within this distance, when the vibrating air touches your ear drum, it causes it to vibrate. This in turn causes some little bones on the inside of the eardrum to move, which in turn generates a electrochemical response in a nerve. This travels up the nerve to the brain where a complex process of interpretation occurs. The result of this process is that a sound is heard. Then it is compared with previous experience and 'recognised' as a tree falling sound. Stories then arise about cause and effect.
So, let me ask you, what part of that process could you eliminate without eliminating 'sound' ?
The comparison of the heard voice with previous experience, which leads to the ‘recognition’ of a tree falling sound, could be eliminated without eliminating the ‘sound’ itself.

After reading this I thought that how this intellectual questioning could help me to become “liberated”? A couple of hours later I was walking in a botanical garden. Suddenly, I saw a truck working on the garden beds and at the same time I heard the sound of the truck. In that moment, there was a recognition of the usefulness of this “intellectual questioning”. Seeing the truck and hearing the sound of the truck is linked in the brain, and there was an interpretation that the sound belongs to the truck. But, in direct experience, there isn’t any linkage between the hearing of the sound and the seeing of the truck. These are just simultaneously occurring phenomena in the current experience. In that moment, I understood, what some ‘liberated’ people mean by that “there is no cause and effect”.
Later, I was sitting on the bank of a pond. The same recognition happened. In direct experience, the tree at the bank of the pond is not the cause of the image of a tree reflected on the surface of the pond. I’m not sure, whether there was a real seeing or just an intellectual understanding. Or maybe a few second of seeing and then labelling and interpreting.

I’m a bit confused about the wording. Several times a day seeing happens, but a few seconds later there is a labelling that “I saw it”. When I write about the experience to you I don’t know which wording I should use: “seeing happened” or “I saw it”. Because, when I’m writing about it, in this moment, what comes up is that I saw it. However, in the moment, there was a seeing, and a few seconds later a labelling that I saw it. So I want to be honest with you, but both cases feel deceiving.
Can you see that there is no objective sound - ever. That there is only hearing ? (before thoughts arrive)
Yes, I can see that there is no objective sound, because the sound is inseparable of the hearing apparatus. Hearing cannot happen if any of them is missing.
What was real for Viv, was her experiencing.
Is there ever any object/subject in actuality ? ..or is experiencing ALL that is real for Vivien ?
Is there a subject (who) seeing an object (this) ? ..or is there just seeing ?
This is what I was asking in my yesterday morning’s post. This is what I cannot get. For me, there must be both a subject and an object to seeing emerge. Both are conditions that need to be present. There must be a living organism with intact eyes and a brain and the seen object in order to seeing happen. But, like in gestalt, the whole is other than the sum of its parts, seeing is more, it’s something new or else.

Something else. I wrote 2 posts both yesterday and the day before yesterday, but I’m not sure whether you saw all four of them, since you replied both days just to the second once. Or was it intentionally? Is it better if I write only one post a day, or not writing a new one until you replied to the previous one?

Thanks,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
vinceschubert
Posts: 3557
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:02 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:47 pm

'morning Viv,
I wrote 2 posts both yesterday and the day before yesterday, but I’m not sure whether you saw all four of them, since you replied both days just to the second once.
Yes, i saw them all. (i had to go back and check) Often points are covered by responding to one thing, and sometime i will not respond to something if it seems to be a diversion to our focus. How this process works for me, is that i read your post then (usually) let it sit for a while. Then come back and respond with what arises. Certainly, if you feel that i have missed anything, bring it up. i have no fixed 'plan' that i follow. It is all spontaneous.
The emotion is real, but not the word joy or wonder but the actual sensations in the body that are labelled as joy or wonder.
So it it clear to me that you SEE the difference between what is real and what is a story about something. Which category does the Self (I) fit into ?
I’m a bit confused about the wording. Several times a day seeing happens, but a few seconds later there is a labelling that “I saw it”. When I write about the experience to you I don’t know which wording I should use: “seeing happened” or “I saw it”
For the sake of our investigation, use the most accurate wording. When talking to others use what is appropriate. With you and other 'gatecrashers', i would say "seeing happened" with those still asleep i would say "i saw it" (with the cognition that they are just words for convenience of communication).
At the moment if you say "I saw it", i might query where exactly is this I that saw it.
Which brings us to this next point;
This is what I cannot get. For me, there must be both a subject and an object to seeing emerge. Both are conditions that need to be present.
Ha, the mind is obsessed with labeling and categorizing everything. It habitually wants a resolution to everything it touches.
Now, this is a big one. Remember the sound of the tree falling discussion from last post ? Well, consider this; if the hearing happens in the brain, is it not also that any sighted or felt or smelled, etc, also happen in the brain ? You have been conditioned to believe that there is an object out there that is the source of the input, but this is also an illusion. Everything, the whole world, everybody, is ALL in you. You are ALL of it, them. Can you say that there is anything other than Experiencing ? ...and where does that happen ?
This is so big, that i will leave you with it for this morning.

love

vince

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 4779
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Hello Ilona, I'd like to ask you to be my guide

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:05 am

Hi Vince,
How this process works for me, is that i read your post then (usually) let it sit for a while. Then come back and respond with what arises.
Thank you for the clarification.
So it it clear to me that you SEE the difference between what is real and what is a story about something. Which category does the Self (I) fit into ?
The self (I) is a complete illusion with no reality whatsoever. There were a few times when it was clearly seen that the “I” exist only in the story, in thoughts. One morning, “I decided” to search for location of the “I”. And there was a clear seeing that the “I” emerges in a thought. Since then, Descartes’ statement “I think, therefore I am” has a complete sense. “I” only “exist” because I’m thinking. If there is no thinking, there is no “I”.

Other times, this seeing just a memory, but a quite strong one, like this moment. Now there is the sense of me. But if I stop typing now and pay attention to the thoughts, it is seen again that the “I” “lives” only in thought. However, this seeing very short lived, just a second and immediately a labelling thought comes “I is just a thought”. The problem is that this second labelling thought most of the time is believed, so the “I” is “created” again. Sometimes, a few seconds later this labelling thought is seen again, but another labelling thought comes “This is also a thought”. This can goes on until either the last labelling thought believed without seeing it just a thought or another topic comes up. This kind of seeing, labelling, being lost in the content than seeing again, etc. happens about a 100 times a day, especially when I don’t do something that requires intellectual thinking. So it happens while I’m walking, doing house chores, shopping, driving. But, if I start to read something or having a conversation with husband, or just listening to him, or seeing a movie, the number and intensity of the moments of seeing lessen a lot. As if attention or focus is needed to seeing happen. Therefore, I prefer to be alone, but it’s not an issue, because currently I don’t work, so while my husband is working I’m alone during weekdays (no kinds).

There was also a clear seeing that being lost in the content of a story or having a sleeping dream is the same. The only difference is that during the sleeping dream the body is sleeping, but in the waking dream it’s not. So, when I’m lost in the content of a story, and suddenly wake up from it, it literally feels as if I had woken up from a sleeping dream.

According to my observations, there are two types of being lost. One is, when there is just a simple labelling or interpreting thought, maybe accompanied with an image, and another is a whole story, where almost all senses are involved. The seeing happens most easily with labelling thoughts, and it happens almost immediately after the thought arisen. But when I’m lost in a story, it has a bigger pull. Seeing happens later and sometimes after a moment of seeing I become lost in the story again. It can be followed with another seeing for a moment, than being lost for a minute, than seeing again, etc.

In the last few weeks, if the story triggers emotions in the body, seeing happens immediately. So the emotion triggers the waking up from the dream. There is a strong sensitivity to any changes of the sensation of the body (in emotions, muscle tensions or any other sensations).
consider this; if the hearing happens in the brain, is it not also that any sighted or felt or smelled, etc, also happen in the brain ?
Yes, everything happens in the brain. I have a relatively lot intellectual knowledge about how the perceptions work (I’ve learned about it in the university while I was studying psychology). So, I think a lot about this. For example, while I’m typing now, there is a sensation in the tips of my fingers when I press a button. But in fingers there are only receptors and the perception happens in the brain. So while my direct experience is that sensation happens in the fingers, actually it happens in the brain. Therefore, direct experience could be labelled as illusion also. But if I cannot see through the illusion, meaning if I don’t experience the sensation in the brain instead of the fingers, for me, the sensation in the fingers is real in direct experience. Are you saying that in ‘reality’ or ‘objectively’, the notion that the sensation happens in the brain is not real at all? From the point of view of the direct experience, it’s not, because it is just a concept, a thought. The thought is real but not its content. But what about the observation that the perception happens in the brain?
You have been conditioned to believe that there is an object out there that is the source of the input, but this is also an illusion.
Unfortunately, I cannot relate to this, because I’ve never had an experience about this.
Can you say that there is anything other than Experiencing ? ...and where does that happen ?
Let’s say there are two people in a room with a table, but one of them is blind. So the object that is labelled as table is not in the DE of the blind person, but it’s in the other one. So does the object, called table, exist? If the blind person starts to wander around the room, finally he will bump into the table. So he experiences it through touching. If he were paralysed and could not sense his body, his body still could be ‘get in contact’ with the table, but not in his DE.

But maybe, there is a weak sense that I ‘know’ what you are pointing at. This morning I was at a food court. “I tried” to pay attention to the direct experience. In seeing, there were just seeing, but with labels of “a woman” or “talking”. It occurred to me that in DE there isn’t a knowledge that what I see is a woman who is talking, because all of these are just concepts, thoughts. I don’t even know that what I see is a human and is alive. It’s just a learned knowledge. In experience there are just colours, shapes, movements with a lot of thought narratives about the experience.

If somebody is talking to me, how do I know that he saying his thoughts aloud? In DE there is just a moving phenomenon called person, there are sound, but that the sound is coming out of his mouth is just an assumption, that those words his thoughts are also just an assumption. In DE I would never be able to know these things.

As right now, my husband is not with me, and I cannot know for sure whether he exist now when I don’t see him. But does this mean that since I cannot see him he doesn’t exist?
Everything, the whole world, everybody, is ALL in you. You are ALL of it, them.
A couple a weeks ago I had an experience. There was pain and strong muscle tension in my body. I paid attention to these sensations and suddenly there was a strange feeling that I am not in the body, but the body is in me with other objects around me. After an interpretation came that I am not the body but the awareness in which all phenomena arise. A couple of time this experience repeated, but I stopped paying attention to it, since it was still dualistic, I am as awareness and everything else is in it.

Thank you,
Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot] and 59 guests