Guide available

[EmptySet00]

Hi- I'm available to guide you out of the illusion of self if you're interested.

EmptySet

[matumba]

Hi Emptyset,
Hopefully I am ready and prepared to be 100% honest and abide by forum rules. There is a need to stop taking things so "personally"

Like a lot of the gateless gatecrasher stories and blog posts I’ve read, I’ve got a background steeped in Advaita. I’ve had some sort of spiritual practice the past 25 years beginning with basic Raja Yoga. For the past 10 years mostly been Advaita – Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj primarily, with a few others sprinkled in.

What also seems to parallel some others is ‘intellectual’ understanding, but I think that may just be a fantasy or a wish to believe/understand. There have been moments of clarity, some peace, all the typical buzzwords, but nothing lasting –and those ‘realizations’ fade when scrutinized – by thought.

Ready for your guidance - and you can call me John.
Thanks!

[EmptySet00]

Hi John,

Welcome to the forum! I'm glad you let me know about your Advaita background, since mine is more Buddhist. We may be speaking somewhat different languages at times, but that shouldn't be a problem as long as we've got a clear understanding of the goal here. It's to see that what is called the "self" in ordinary terms is illusory. That's the separate person, the seer, hearer, thinker and doer.

Before we start, I'd like to ask you to watch the introductory videos and read the disclaimer on the home page if you haven't already and agree to some standard ground rules:

1. You agree to post at least once a day, even if it's only "Hi, I'm still here." I will do the same. If either of us will be unable to post daily for any reason, we should let the other know.

2. I will post questions, which prompt your investigation and answers. (I'm here to guide, not to teach.)

3. When you answer/report, please do so with 110% honesty.

4. And when you do answer, please answer from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.

5. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really commit to begin looking for this separate self, this "I"; look for what is the experience throughout the day as this looking happens. And if you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's fine to continue that.

About posting in this forum.

1. When clicking 'Quote' (in a post) or 'Post Reply' at the bottom of the page you get the editor where you can type an answer. You can also preview the answer before it is posted. Experiment as much as needed. Nothing gets posted unless the 'Submit' button is clicked.

2. The forum can log you out without warning. If you're typing a post directly in the edit box here, and you get logged out before you click Submit, your words can get lost. There are two ways to avoid this. One, use the Preview button frequently. That will keep you logged in. Or two, type your responses in a separate program like Notepad first, then copy and paste them into the forum. (But that way you don't get to use the quote function and have to use BBCode to highlight quotes.)

3. Please learn to use the 'Quote' facility, it's a very useful tool.

4. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

Expectations are often an issue in this process. There's a very good list of what this is not about at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_FAQ.html#not

Please tell me what you are expecting from this.

[matumba]

Thanks Emptyset (is that what I should call you?),
I have read the disclaimer and agree to the standard ground rules. I have not been able to watch all 12 videos yet, but have watched the initial. I’ve also been through the Marked Eternal Blogspot and read the Gateless Gatecrashers book.

3. Please learn to use the 'Quote' facility, it's a very useful tool.

got it :)

I cannot exactly say what I’m expecting. I don’t really expect anything… maybe some clarity. Any expectations I harbor are merely parroting what I’ve read from countless others on what it feels like to be “realized”. I suppose I expect to be in some state that words cannot describe – which is just what I’ve read and have no real experience. If words can’t describe it neither can “I” haha.

Thank you for your time,
John

[EmptySet00]

John,

It sounds like you're ready to go! Expectations can be an obstacle, but it doesn't seem like that will be a problem for you. You recognize that others' experiences may not be like your own. The more "naive" you can be going in to this, the better. Try to put aside any preconceptions you may have about this, based on others' experience or any teachings you've heard over the years.

I would also like to point out that this isn't about any particular state of consciousness. Those come and go. This is about a shift in perspective that isn't dependent on states or feelings that come and ggo

Most of what I'll be doing here is asking you questions or suggesting exercises for you to do. Please try to respond from your own experience. There are no wrong answers if they are honest.


First question: When you use the words "I" or "me", what are you referring to?

[matumba]

HI Emptyset,
When I use I or me, conventionally the reference is to this body-mind organism. I can look and see that "I" is actually referring to nothing in particular. but the identification to the body-mind is incredibly strong and taken to be "me". Investigating now it looks more like the "I" is associated with belief in free will or ownership of actions. Thoughts are noticed and when they concern plans - which happen to come true - There is an entity that feels ownership called I. It is very strong in memories because they seem so personalized and individual, and not as strong with plans that don't come to fruition... I suppose the identification is there, but it isn't bolstered because what "I" planned didn't happen to come true.

[EmptySet00]

John,

Your definition of "I" includes some other ideas, "body", "mind", "ownership of actions", "entity", "thoughts", and "memories". We'll investigate each of those things in turn, along with some other things like sensations and feelings.

At this point it's important to see the distinction between actual experiences and thoughts about them. We're going to look for "I" and its components in the realm of experience, not thoughts. Thoughts are also experiences, but a thought about an experience is not the experience itself.

Here's an exercise to try. I suggest you do this even if you've read about this many times before, or have even done it before. When people here refer to "LOOKing in direct experience", they are referring to this, and it's likely you will have to do it repeatedly.

Take a small piece of food such as a nut or a small piece of fruit. Before you eat it, think about what the experience of eating it will be like. Describe what you expect to experience. Sweet, salty, tart, some other flavor? A certain texture?

Then put the description aside and actually eat the food. Pay attention to the sensations that arise.

Do you see a clear distinction between the thoughts and concepts about eating the food and the actual experience of eating? Let me know.

We communicate using words, which are concepts. But this is about experience, not concepts. Whenever I ask you to do another exercise or just to "LOOK" at something, please pay attention to the experience itself and not the concepts describing it. You will have to use words to communicate with me, but no-self has to be something you experience directly, not figure out using logic or agree to because anyone else, including me, said so.

ES

[matumba]

Hi ES,
Thanks for the exercise, will do my best to concentrate on your recommendation before I post about it. I will update tomorrow on whats experienced.
John

[matumba]

Hi ES,
Huge distinction between my expectations and actual experience. More than expected actually. Even after initially describing and subsequently tasting the first time, I tried the experiment again immediately after tasting the food and still the expectations and description came up markedly short compared to the actual experience of eating the food.
I then tried observing my expectations vs experience at other activities during the day... driving, chores, bathing, and could see where the thoughts/expectations vs the actual experience differ.

I noticed attention is rarely given to routine tasks throughout the day - I find thoughts are elsewhere most of the time.

[EmptySet00]

Excellent!! You've got it! You'll often see people here referring to "direct experience" or "DE", meaning this type of LOOKing. So, we'll be looking at a range of phenomena in DE. You're already starting to see how different DE is from concepts about it.

First: Sensations. Start with hearing. Listen to sounds. In DE, is there a "hearer" and "what's being heard", or is there just a sound?

Try with sight, too. That can be trickier. Focus on the visual appearance itself, not thoughts identifying which objects you're seeing. Other than those thoughts, is there a distinction between "seer" and "seen", or just a sight?

Keep up the good work!

ES

[matumba]

Wow - these random thoughts are taking up a huge amount of attention!

Just to clarify, when focus is on the sensations (and hearing is easiest for me) I can tell there is just a sound, and it gets processed through mind or whatever and is given some significance. And frankly, most of the sounds had been heard before and they were immediately categorized into... whatever. And the identity went to "me" as the entity categorizing the sounds.

What surprised me is how haphazard thoughts were when attention was trying to focus just on the sound. Focus went out the window in very short order and the thought(s) of what needed to be done, had to be done, prioritize what needs to be done, oops - back to the sound for a few seconds, then off the focus went to something else. And the thought/feeling/identity of "me" was strongest when deciding what to DO WITH THE SOUND (categorize, act, react), not really anything with the actual sensation of a sound at all.

First: Sensations. Start with hearing. Listen to sounds. In DE, is there a "hearer" and "what's being heard", or is there just a sound? is there a distinction between "seer" and "seen", or just a sight?

so the feeling of I, me, mine really begins after the physical sense occurs - this "me" thrives on doing something with those sensations. And it is VERY STRONG - even after meditating for many years and being able to (feeling like I could) focus on one thing, I find that it is "my" thought of breath, heartbeat, ringing sound, whatever that has been the focus, and not really the sensation. The ability to tie my thoughts of the experience vs the experience itself is somewhat boggling. After so many occurrences, the actual experience is dulled by the rutted thought of the experience - is it new or a regular occurrence?

I really liked high risk sports as a younger man - kayak, rock climb, that type thing - and can see a bit why now. As danger forces the physical body to be very present and focused (to avoid injury/death) you begin to really feel alive. And 99% of your time doing those sports are just routine, the reason I did them was that rush you get the 1% of time.

[EmptySet00]

John,

You're doing really well- keep up the great work!

Your experience with the senses is really interesting. In Buddhism there's a concept called "Dependent Origination", which is rather complex and interpreted in a lot of ways, but part of it is about this process of interpreting and reacting to sensations. It's a link in the chain of how a "me" develops, with its associated suffering. You said

I can tell there is just a sound, and it gets processed through mind or whatever and is given some significance.

and

And the identity went to "me" as the entity categorizing the sounds

and

this "me" thrives on doing something with those sensations

When you notice this, you're seeing part of the process of "selfing" unfold in real time! This is something that's easiest to notice when you're meditating or just not doing much in a quiet setting. So, keep it up- it will get clearer the more you LOOK. Keep the focus on the sound, or the sight, or the smell, taste, or physical sensation as it happens, and keep asking whether in DE there is a distinction between "you" and an object causing the sensation, or just the sensation.

Please don't worry that you're doing this wrong because you're having a lot of thoughts. This process can provoke a lot of thinking and sometimes emotional reactions too.

Thoughts are where to LOOK next, as a matter of fact. Watch your own thought processes. Do you control them? Do you decide what to think about next, or does a thought just pop into your mind? Is there an on/ off switch that lets you make the thoughts stop and start?

This gives you a lot to chew on. Please report back at least briefly every day, but also please understand that this stuff can take a while to process. Every once in a while I'll give you a nudge to LOOK at something else.

ES

[matumba]

thanks ES,
I am just checking in for now. Will report and give you an update w/ any questions hopefully tomorrow.
John

[matumba]

Hi ES,

Please don't worry that you're doing this wrong because you're having a lot of thoughts. This process can provoke a lot of thinking and sometimes emotional reactions too.

I will jump right in and tell you that I experience a great deal of frustration when practicing just looking. Very strong feelings that I need to do something (regarding whatever I am looking at).
I think I have some preconditioning while looking during meditation - it is much easier, but seems like I am observing the senses - as a requirement of meditating. Does that make any sense to you?

It seems like I am a "failure" for not getting this, but I think it really conjures up feelings of frustration and anger. And after a bit it even feels useless just observing and not doing something. I believe this is all just conditioning or past habits, but it certainly has a grip on "me".

[EmptySet00]

Hi John,

I don't know what meditation techniques you've been taught in the past, but you may need to put aside some of the techniques and theory you've learned.

The only technique that's needed here is to examine your experience, AS IT IS, as you go through your regular day-to-day life. DON'T try to change what you're experiencing. DON'T try to stop or repress thoughts. The energy needs to be on being aware of what you experience directly through the senses and how thoughts come and go.

Try this one again- just close your eyes and listen to whatever sounds are going on around you. Other than anything that comes up in thought, is there a thing making a sound and a "you" listening, or is there just a sound?

You noticed quite clearly before that a bunch of thoughts FOLLOWED the sound and started categorizing it, trying to decide what it "was" and what it "meant". Please pay attention as this process unfolds again, repeatedly if possible.

Do you control which thoughts follow the sound? Or do they just happen?

Are these thoughts "you"?

ES