looking to work with a guide

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jason0604
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looking to work with a guide

Postby jason0604 » Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:49 pm

Hi there,

My name is Jason and I have been practicing meditation for 20 years plus. I am interested in direct pointing as a method and recognise some similarities with krishnamurti and some forms of buddhism - which are my main inspirations. A friend recommended this site and i'd like to try this approach and see what happens.

Would anyone be willing to work with me ?

Thanks for your consideration

Jason

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Xain
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Re: looking to work with a guide

Postby Xain » Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:44 pm

Hi there Jason

Welcome to the Forum.
I may be willing to be your guide.

Have you read 'Gateless Gatecrashers' or any of the other threads in this forum.

What is it that you seek?
What would you like to 'get out' of our discussion?
Do you have any expectations?

Xain ♥

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Re: looking to work with a guide

Postby jason0604 » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:01 pm

Hi Xain

Thanks for responding.

I have read some threads and also some of the gateless gatecrashers pdf.

I suppose I want to stop seeking and gain freedom from that - and gain understanding of no self.

I noticed in discussions the guide points out where the person is getting stuck and this seems helpful. So i would welcome feedback on what to do and feedback on when I get stuck.

I have an open mind. I have been told that going through the gate is a meaningful experience so I guess I am expecting that.

What would you expect from me ?

Cheers
Jason

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Xain
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Re: looking to work with a guide

Postby Xain » Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:24 pm

I suppose I want to stop seeking and gain freedom from that - and gain understanding of no self.
Ok. When you say 'stop seeking', what would mark the end of seeking?
What is being sought?
I have an open mind. I have been told that going through the gate is a meaningful experience so I guess I am expecting that.
Hmmm.
'A meaningful experience' of what?
What would you expect from me ?
Well complete honesty with me, and more importantly yourself.
What exactly is it that you would like guidance with?
Be completely honest.

Since you have read some threads and the PDF, can I ask if you realise what the goal of guidance on the forum is?

Xain ♥

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Re: looking to work with a guide

Postby jason0604 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:59 am

Dear Xain,

Many thanks for your questions. I will respond as honestly as I can.

In answer to your first question about what would mark the end of seeking. My sense is that this would come from letting go of thoughts even thoughts about spiritual progress but then the problem is that this is also a thought - so what to do ? Just notice I guess ? What I am seeking is a cessation of thought, of desiring an outcome and the feeling of freedom that comes when the mind isn't caught up in delusions. It seems that this can only happen by seeing how the mind creates delusions and then the freedom comes from seeing how the delusion is a delusion. I think Elena from LU calls it seeing that Santa doesn't exist. I recognise moments of this type of seeing through in my practice.

You ask what is this meaningful experience I am seeking? I see from your question how I get caught in the very thing I am trying to see through. I think what happens is that I meditate and have experiences of openness, freedom and deeper meaning but they don't last so I meditate to recreate the experiences of openness by seeing my delusions. This has been going on for 20 years. Perhaps I am bringing in this attitude to learning Direct pointing, seeing it as another method to get to an imagined permanent state of cessation and openness? I think recently I am questioning my usual ways of meditating and questioning the whole framework of how I practice spiritually and how it seems to keep me in delusion.

To be honest I really don't know precisely what the goal of guidance is from reading the pdf's but the dialogues are intriguing and the questions seem to get under the skin of the preconceptions of the inquirer and I sometimes feel a sense of openness from reading them and sometimes I don't really know what is going on but the person seems to report something important has happened. So I guess the guidance is to help me stay in experience rather than delusion, its to give me pointers to investigate and see the nature of mind for myself? I find it scary that LU questions the whole spiritual seeking itself because I have been seeking that for so long its part of my identity I guess. It sounded reasonable to seek because its so natural that we desire. Intellectually I understand there is no self but I continue to experience self. I am in a better space from spiritually seeking than I was when I wasn't 20 years ago so I guess I am reluctant to let go of my habits out of fear that I might regress into the unhappiness and a loss of meaning of the past – this was how things were before I started practising meditation and Buddhism 20 years ago.

Jason

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Re: looking to work with a guide

Postby Xain » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:17 pm

Hi Jason

Thanks for your honest and expansive reply.
What I am seeking is a cessation of thought, of desiring an outcome and the feeling of freedom that comes when the mind isn't caught up in delusions.
Ok. I can state quite strongly that this is very unlikely to be achieved from my guidance (stopping thoughts).
However, from my guidance it may be clear that the thoughts have no truth to them - That they are just thoughts, and they are not controlled, created or have an 'owner'.
I think Elena from LU calls it seeing that Santa doesn't exist. I recognise moments of this type of seeing through in my practice.
Yes. The Santa analogy is a good one.
When you are very young, you believe there is a man who travels around the world on a sleigh giving presents.
Once you are told that he isn't 'real', then you don't believe it any more.
You can't go back to believing in Santa once you've realised that such a person isn't real.

It is the same with 'I', the separate self.
At the moment, there may be a belief that 'you' are a separate person, an 'I', a self.
My guidance would be to realise that there is no such entity. That all 'I' is, is just an idea - A thought that is believed to be true. Once it is realised it isn't true, you can't go back to believing that it is.
You ask what is this meaningful experience I am seeking? I see from your question how I get caught in the
very thing I am trying to see through.
That's Ok. It could be said that the issue with seeing through the illusion of the separate self, is that we are continually 'caught up in thoughts'. It is 'seeing through this veil' that gives the realisation.
I think recently I am questioning my usual ways of meditating and questioning the whole framework of how I practice spiritually and how it seems to keep me in delusion.
In our dialogue, you will be questioning the very fact that there is a 'you' that meditates.
Is this what you seek? Or does this sound too much?
So I guess the guidance is to help me stay in experience rather than delusion, its to give me pointers to investigate and see the nature of mind for myself?
Yes. This will happen during my guidance.
It is essentially an extension of your own self-inquiry.
There is nothing to learn; I will not be feeding you new concepts or beliefs - Simply examining the ones that currently operate.
I find it scary that LU questions the whole spiritual seeking itself because I have been seeking that for so long its part of my identity I guess.
This process may be considered 'scary'. We will be examining the very core of what you consider yourself to be.
Are you prepared for that?
this was how things were before I started practising meditation and Buddhism 20 years ago
We will be directly examining the self, this 'I' that we take ourselves to be, to realise that the self is 'empty' - It lacks independent existence. To put it another way, it is simply an idea, a thought, something in the mind (that is automatically believed in without question) . . . until it IS questioned . .. which is what we do here.

What do you think?

Xain ♥

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Re: looking to work with a guide

Postby jason0604 » Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:27 pm

Dear Xain,

Thanks for giving me more clarity about what I can expect from your guidance. I have a bit of conditioning from buddhist meditation of applying antidotes and cultivating states of mind. I realise LU is different and is about not identifying with thought as real or mine in anyway. Its not about developing or cultivating but noticing.

The belief in self seems very real to me at the moment. I have been questioning my experience, looking at how I make experience and events in to my gig. I can't imagine what it would be like to see through that but I guess its not what I imagine its being with experience moment by moment and undoing. I felt my meditation in the morning has been deeper through inquiry but I also notice fear arising during the day – I guess in work and in life one feels the pressure to be someone, an ego an identity and that jars with the inquiry. It sometimes seems silly to think that there is no self but I guess that is just another belief I am identifying with that comes and goes. Staying open to experience, notice when I make something into one of my trips and let go?

I'm willing to give this approach a go and work on my unquestioned beliefs with your guidance if your offering it. Is there anything else I need to know at this point ?

Best wishes
Jason

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Xain
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Re: looking to work with a guide

Postby Xain » Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:48 pm

The belief in self seems very real to me at the moment.
Sure - That's fine - The standard belief is that 'I' am a limited body/mind.
I would hope that there is at least a slight interest or understanding that this might not be the case.

Your statement here is interesting.
There is a self here right now that the self seems very real to :-)
I can't imagine what it would be like to see through that but I guess its not what I imagine its being with experience moment by moment and undoing.
We take the stance here that there is no self at all. Not now. Nor has there ever been.
It is all 'mind created' - A self reinforcing belief.

I would ask you to put all expectations aside - This isn't about bliss, or achieving a special state or becoming anything.
I will focus on one thing only - That is the realisation that this 'I', 'me', the separate self we believe we are does not exist. It is just a thought. A belief.
I would ask you to please put all expectations aside other than this one goal.
I also notice fear arising during the day – I guess in work and in life one feels the pressure to be someone, an ego an identity and that jars with the inquiry.
If you have fears or worries arising during our chat, then please let me know and we can address them.
Note that this is nothing to do with 'destroying' or getting rid of anything at all; Nor is the goal to change anything or to replace one belief with another. It is simply to recognise that what we take to be 'real', to simply be a creation of the mind. That is all.
It sometimes seems silly to think that there is no self but I guess that is just another belief I am identifying with that comes and goes.
That's fine - And honest.

Is there an 'I', a separate self that controls typing?
Is there an 'I' that controls the breathing?
Is there an 'I' that controls the digestion?
Is there an 'I' that makes the heart beat?

Why is it that some of these we attribute an 'I', a self to, and some we do not?
What is the difference between these actions? Why is there a 'you' doing some of them, and not others?
You don't have to answer these - Just consider them.
This is the sort of thing we'll look in to.
I'm willing to give this approach a go and work on my unquestioned beliefs with your guidance if your offering it. Is there anything else I need to know at this point ?
Just be completely honest. Try to approach this very simply and put all Buddhist and non-duality language and concepts to one side for the moment.

Have a look at these important guidelines which will help us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only. Answer from what you believe is true, rather than replying with what you have been told by non-duality teachers or what you have studied. We are here to address your beliefs, not ideas that may have been instilled by others - Not that there is anything at all wrong with that - I just want to be clear what we are looking at here.
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
(Scroll down the page)

If you need to you can use the QUOTE function like I have done above to quote some of your replies - It may make it easier to read through the dialogue.
A guide for this function can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Xain ♥

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Re: looking to work with a guide

Postby jason0604 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:05 am

Dear Xain

Thanks for your comments which I found useful.

I have been inquiring into my experience and just noticing what arises. Speaking from personal experience only I noticed anger, then craving, then desire to control, then fantasies about experiencing special states, then envy, then approval stories, then fear – and so on, you get the picture.

Each time a thought/story arose I would ask where was the I/self ? Because in each emotion that arose there was always an underlying belief in self. At times I saw the falseness of this and I let go (until a new emotion/story arose)When I let go of the self I felt a deeper bodily experience of spaciousness as if I had made more space in my experience. I also felt a sense of more wholeness. When new thoughts arose it was as if I was getting drawn into a current that would drift me away from presence.

I have read the guidelines you suggested and for the most part I think I should be able to post everyday there may be the odd day here and there when I am away where it might not be possible but I will let you know when those are.

Thanks for the guidance its really helpful

Regards
Jason

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Xain
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Re: looking to work with a guide

Postby Xain » Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:35 pm

Thanks for your comments which I found useful.
Thanks - No problem.
My guiding will be filled with ideas and suggestions - Things to make you think and consider.
Most of the time from now on it will be me asking you to examine your experience.

Ok, let's make a start.
Please be honest and try to keep the answers as simple as possible.
There are no right or wrong answers, and no-one is judging you. Feel free to write what ever comes up from now on.

What does the word 'I' point to?
What do you currently believe yourself to be at the most honest level?

Let's look at a few of the things you wrote previously, and I will try to give you a few suggestions:
I have read some threads and also some of the gateless gatecrashers pdf.
Easy. 'I' is the one that reads. Perhaps it is believed that there is a person, an 'I' reading this sentence right now.
Intellectually I understand there is no self but I continue to experience self.
That's an interesting one. 'I' experiences self?
Maybe 'I' is experiencing right now - Seeing this screen, hearing the sounds in the room, feeling back against the chair etc
A friend recommended this site and i'd like to try this approach and see what happens.
So here 'I' started this dialogue with me on this Forum.
A choice was made (by 'I') to begin a discussion and see what happens.
Perhaps 'I' is expecting a realisation - This realisation will happen to 'I', or perhaps the 'I' will know when the realisation has happened.

Those are a few pointers and ideas. Feel free to reject them if they don't make sense.
What does the word 'I' or 'me' point to - What are 'you'?

Xain ♥

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Re: looking to work with a guide

Postby jason0604 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:06 pm

Hi Xain,

Interesting questions and it really shows up what happens with I all the time in decisions and choices I assume that I am making!

What does I point to in my experience? Well it points to a sense of myself with a history and memories and a sense that they are unique and personal to me. Its fluid, I seems to be effected my moods and states of mind and the story changes (although events remain) and my interpretation of events changes. I feel a sense of I when I am conscious and a different sense of I when I dream or am in fantasy. But there feels like a centre. Sometimes I intuit there is a deeper me than the everyday a soul or something that makes sense on a deeper level but its fluid its not possible to pin it down its mercurial.

At the most honest level I feel I am awareness and a fluid story that is conditioned by my interpretations and fears and longings.

Does this make sense ?
Jason

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Xain
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Re: looking to work with a guide

Postby Xain » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:27 pm

Interesting questions and it really shows up what happens with I all the time in decisions and choices I assume that I am making!
Sure. But be honest.
Choices are made - Is it believed that you are making them?
Don't analyse this - I'm not giving you trick questions or anything.
Just be honest and approach this at the most simplest level.
Do you choose stuff? For example, did you choose to come here and start this conversation?
Well it points to a sense of myself with a history and memories and a sense that they are unique and personal to me.
Ok. This doesn't go very deep though.
What is the 'me' that the memories are personal to?
If you would say 'I have a history' then what is the 'I' that has it?
If there an 'I', a separate self within the history? What is that?

The standard view is that a person consists of a body (they are the body) and a mind (the thoughts appearing are theirs). Does this ring true with you at all?
At the most honest level I feel I am awareness
'Awareness' is a little tricky to define.
Could you say 'I am aware'?
Could you expand this to 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel', 'I smell', 'I taste' . . . 'I am aware of my surroundings'?

I categorize thoughts in a similar way as the other senses. Could you say 'I think'?

Xain ♥

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Re: looking to work with a guide

Postby jason0604 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:56 pm

Hi Xain,
Thanks for bringing me back to honesty about my experience and I can see how I haven't investigated some of my assumptions about my experience. Useful.
Yes being honest I feel I make choices that is my experience, that is the story I believe. I feelI chose to come here and start a conversation but if I really analyse it I am not sure why I felt impelled to do it now as friends have been recommending this approach to me for over a year. So there is an unknown element to it.

Similarly the me that the memories are personal to. I don't know what that personal thing is. I can't find where that comes from but it appears to be there. I don't know who the I is that has a history - I can't find it but I believe its there. I make meaning out of believing its there.I identify with thoughts arising as my thoughts yes.

With awareness again it feels like I am aware but why is there this assumption that its 'my' awareness ? I can't find this 'my' when I look for it and yet I have this belief.

Today I felt myself appropriating my experience into my story of I. As I noticed it I started to see that the process was a fiction but then who is the person that is seeing it as a fiction ? I can only say I felt a softening of my sense of boundaries in awareness where I felt more connected with objects that didn't seem separate from me in the usual sense.
Jason

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Re: looking to work with a guide

Postby jason0604 » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:41 am

Hi Xain,

Continuing to Inquire this morning into Who is aware and who makes choices. I can't find it but still feel that I am making choices. I am noticing I am more deeply absorbed than usual and my energy is more expansive. The process may be bringing up stuff as I am having dark dreams - fear I guess but when I inquire I can't find the I that is feeling fear and it dissipates.

Unusual times
Jason

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Xain
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Re: looking to work with a guide

Postby Xain » Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:12 pm

Hi Jason

Just a note - At this stage we are simply examining what you consider yourself to be - What are 'you'.
This gives us a good base from which to investigate.
Yes being honest I feel I make choices that is my experience.
Ok good.
Similarly the me that the memories are personal to. I don't know what that personal thing is.
Interesting isn't it.
We will need some sort of starting point, however.
Rather than memories, what about 'right now'.
What can 'you' do?
What are 'you' currently capable of and why?
What do you believe that 'you' are?

Incidentally, are you sat down or lying down while reading this?
On a chair or on a bed?

In a few moments, are you going to reply to this message?
Are you currently reading this text?
Keep things completely simple - What do you believe?

Xain ♥


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