Request for Moondog to guide me

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shayba
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Request for Moondog to guide me

Postby shayba » Thu May 29, 2014 11:15 am

Hello pete (Moondog),

My name is Shay – 47 years old, animal lover, guitarist, family guy.

Always had a strange feeling something is wrong, missing. Read a book or two on spiruality (actually only a few pages…) and saw some videos on YouTube. About six months ago was shocked by this intense feeling that what they all say might be true !! Started seeking, meditating, reading more pages from more books…

Ran into a video from a nice woman named Lisa. It was clear she knew with her own authority that there is no "Me" and "You", so I pressed the link to LU. Right away I knew this is what I am looking for. I struck gold. Read Gatecrashers book, and installed the pointers App on my Phone.

After looking around the forum I want to ask you to guide me through the gateless gate. It will be an honor to work with you – I resonate with your sharing. I promise to commit myself to this investigation and to post at least once a day. I will be as honest as I can – to you and first of all to myself.

I will be happy to add more about my path, my expectations, fears etc, or any other question you want me to answer before you decide if you agree to guide me.

Thank you,
Shay

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moondog
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Re: Request for Moondog to guide me

Postby moondog » Thu May 29, 2014 4:16 pm

Hi there Shay,

First of all, welcome, and I'll be happy to be your guide.

Thanks for asking me to guide you, and for letting me know a bit about yourself and how you got to this point. Just so that I know about any time differences, whereabouts do you live Shay?

There are also a few standard ground rules before we start:

You've already agreed to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived, honest looking, and you've already agreed to abide by this. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the the article at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer and then we'll begin. I need to take a day out tomorrow Shay but I'll be back to respond to your response to this on Saturday.

Let's start with a summary of what you're looking for and what you expect to find. I know you've already answered some of these, but please forgive any overlap and just fill in the gaps where you haven't, and we'll get started.

What are your expectations for this process?

What is it that you are searching for?

How will you know that you found it?

How will this feel?

How will this change you?


Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:

1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

Don't worry, I don't intend to send any more posts this long, if I can help it! This is just to set things up for you nicely.

Look forward to hearing from you.

With love,

Pete
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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shayba
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Re: Request for Moondog to guide me

Postby shayba » Fri May 30, 2014 10:02 am

Hi again Pete,

Thank you.

I live in Israel so there will not be time difference issues. Shay in Hebrew means 'Gift' – this time I am receiving a gift and hopefully I will be able to give this to others as well. I teach B.A. students economics in universities, and enjoy many hobbies (mainly music and guitars). I am also involved in Animal rights (vegan as well) – please feel free to ask if you are interested.

I confirm reading the disclaimer and watching the intro video. I also read the article about direct experience (and other ones too…).

Here are my answers to your questions:

What are my expectations for this process?

I really don’t know…because it is stepping into the unknown. I hope to find the truth, even if it means giving up lies that served me to some extent. I prefer to have low (or no) expectation and to keep open. I don’t want to limit myself and add more beliefs that could interfere with this process.
For some reason I trust it!


What is it that I am searching for?

The truth ! The answer to my deepest questions and feelings : What is wrong here? Why doesn’t this feel right?

How will I know that I found it ?

The truth has this quality – You (Me) just know. And this is what everybody that walked through the Gate insists – It is a roar. I can feel it.


How will this feel?

I really don’t know…because it is stepping into the unknown. You will be the first to know Pete (actually second…).
I had glimpses into No-Self through meditation – The first time I meditated it felt as if my mind was shut off, like someone that didn’t sleep for weeks. It felt both scary and wonderful at the same time. Even my voice sounded different to me. I was very calm and relaxed for three days, without this constant mental movement that I am used to. But since there wasn't a permanent change in perception I understand that it cannot be "It", so I don’t know I will feel after I see there is No self .

A few months ago I got into the Holographic Universe theory. I read a book and watched a long 5 part workshop. As part of the exercise I tried to perceive the world as one, full emersion holograph, which I was not separate from. It was an amazing experience as everything seemed so alive and beautiful. Then I started to feel sad and even humiliated – as if I was a joke, laughed at by the Universe. It was very scary and unpleasant so I held back and returned to my habitual perception.

How will this change me?
I really don’t know – I hope for the better!! From my experience (and beliefs…) the truth does only good in the long run. Anyway, I am so tired (imagining) driving this vehicle – But I feel that if I will let go of the wheel, accidents will be unavoidable. Can a car navigate without a driver?
Knowing with my own Authority that there is no choice will be liberating – no more guilt because there is no "me" to take responsibility.
Realizing there is no self will humble me – I can't be better than anyone else if there is no "Me" (on second thought, that kinda sucks…).

Thanks again for guiding me,
Shay

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Re: Request for Moondog to guide me

Postby moondog » Fri May 30, 2014 5:14 pm

Hi Shay,

Thanks for your post. As I said in my post yesterday, I'm away today so I can't reply in any detail. However, I'll be back tomorrow and will reply in full then. After that, barring the unexpected, I should be able to post every day.

Pete
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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Re: Request for Moondog to guide me

Postby moondog » Sat May 31, 2014 9:43 am

Hi Shay,

Thanks for accepting all the various conditions etc. It's my pleasure to guide you so that you can see clearly for yourself that there's just no separate self, and never has been.
What are my expectations for this process? -
- I really don’t know…because it is stepping into the unknown. I hope to find the truth, even if it means giving up lies that served me to some extent. I prefer to have low (or no) expectation and to keep open. I don’t want to limit myself and add more beliefs that could interfere with this process. For some reason I trust it!
Thanks also for sharing your expectations above, and the rest, and your understanding of what seeing that you have no separate self might be like. It's certainly good that your expectations aren't particularly specific. It's natural, of course, to wonder and speculate about what this liberation/awakening will be like but, by its very nature, I can assure you that it's just not like anyone expects, although it does differ for each one of us. I'd just stress that the work we do is definitely not intellectual or thought-based. That being so, it's best to put aside any expectations, as they reside in thoughts about the future and so are not within direct experience.

Rest assured, that when you see that there isn't and never has been a 'you', a self-entity, with my guiding to help you see that fact for yourself, you'll just know. In exactly the same way that you know that unicorns aren't real, Batman doesn't exist, and there's no Santa Claus. It isn't fundamentally at all difficult, amazingly simple in fact, but only if you don't rely on trying to figure it out by thinking it through but, instead, just LOOK, LOOK, LOOK in direct experience.

So, as I've already said, actually seeing for sure that there is no separate self, and never has been, is different for everyone. It can come with a definite pop of realisation, or it might creep up gradually until it is seen. Also the effects on life lived after liberation can vary widely.

It’s worth mentioning at this early stage that what can hold a lot of people back, and something that we can perhaps knock on the head now, are assumptions around what one would 'be like' or what life ought to 'look like' once it’s seen that there’s no self-entity. There is a view that 'getting it' is tantamount to kind of somehow seeing it all the time, or being in some kind of state in which negative emotions or problems don’t arise.

It's really helpful to be clear that it's not any kind of state - it's simply direct knowing, insight. The Santa example puts it very well - 'seeing through' Santa, i.e. knowing for sure that there is no Santa, doesn't mean that little kids then spend the rest of their lives constantly thinking, 'there's no Santa'! Nor does it mean that Santa isn't apparently spotted in shopping malls in December. It's just that the story has been seen through. The direct knowing of no-self may be recollected at any time, but states still continue to come and go - pleasant, unpleasant, 'positive', 'negative'. However, that said, changes will be noticed, some possibly quite dramatic, including in relation to suffering arising from a pre-occupation with a separate self that simply doesn't exist!

I hope that's helped to clarify the background stuff a bit. Don't hesitate to ask me about any of this.

Moving on towards the core of this work - just look at the following statement, and ponder it every which way you can:

Nothing exists outside the present moment.

Can you find anything, anything at all, that does?


And next:

How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ 'me' that you hold 'yourself' to be?

Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?


Love,

Pete

Ps.To make your replies as clear as possible and to help me guide you, please use the quote function. To do that, simply highlight the relevant sentence(s)/paragraph(s) that you're replying to in my previous post and press 'copy', then press the 'Quote ' button in the bar above the section you're typing in, then place the cursor in the centre of the two bracketed quote words and then press "paste". That should do it.
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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shayba
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Re: Request for Moondog to guide me

Postby shayba » Sat May 31, 2014 9:23 pm

Hi Pete,
Here are my answers to your questions:
Nothing exists outside the present moment.
This was made clear from practicing mediation. Even thoughts about the past or the future exists only NOW.
Can you find anything, anything at all, that does?
No.
How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ 'me' that you hold 'yourself' to be?
That’s a difficult question. It’s a complex blend of many things (and not "things") such as this body ("I am typing/walking") , memories from past experiences ("I had long hair…), personality ("I am a guitar player", "I am a devoted family man", "I am smart", "my name is Shay from Israel" and so on…). There is a "feeling" of "Me" which I can't explain. Is probably the feeling of existence which the mind labels as "I am ".

This seems very similar to the University analogy I read on Gatecrashers book: University is an idea that points to things that do exists (buildings, certain people and so on), but the idea itself does not.

If we connect this question to the previous one, then since past experiences and personality relate to the past, outside the present moment, we are left with the body – which is my strongest attachment.

Why am I not the body?
Lately, I have been watching myself in the mirror. That guy looks nice, but I have this weird feeling that this is not "Me". I can't explain exactly why. In direct experience, there is the sight, or moving sights (which as a noun is simply "seeing") which includes a body. But is it My body"?? to say so I have to refer the past memories that tell me "who I am " and "how do I look" !! These memories contain images that do not exist in the present moment.
Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?
It is that "feeling" of "I am". That’s the closest I got right now. It is tough for me to disconnect the feeling of existence from the "I", which I understand, on an intellectual level, to be just a thought, not direct experience.

Did you see the film "To be John Malkovich"? It’s a brilliant one, with many "direct experience" scenes such as this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpZknAZxSjU

Now that doesn’t "feel" like "Me", but rather someone else (John Malkovich) !! But why?, what makes the difference? Is it the voice that Doesn’t fit?, is it the look of the hands that is not consistant with what I concieve as "Me"? The memory of "Me"?

I will continue to "LOOK, LOOK, LOOK"...

Gratitude,
Shay

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Re: Request for Moondog to guide me

Postby moondog » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:54 pm

Hi Shay,
Nothing exists outside the present moment.
This was made clear from practicing mediation. Even thoughts about the past or the future exists only NOW
Can you find anything, anything at all, that does?
No.
Great. I'm pleased that's clear to you.
Thanks for your detailed replies to my question around how you conceive yourself to be. It's all good, but I particularly like:
There is a "feeling" of "Me" which I can't explain. Is probably the feeling of existence which the mind labels as "I am "
and
This seems very similar to the University analogy I read on Gatecrashers book: University is an idea that points to things that do exists (buildings, certain people and so on), but the idea itself does not.
You then go on to say:
It is that "feeling" of "I am". That’s the closest I got right now. It is tough for me to disconnect the feeling of existence from the "I", which I understand, on an intellectual level, to be just a thought, not direct experience.
Which is of course just what this enquiry will be looking at. Your comments and observations tell me that, at least intellectually, this is all already familiar territory for you. That's good. Thanks for the clip, by the way. I saw the film when it came out and thought it was great. I must watch it again and see what it's like now.

My job as your guide during this enquiry will be simply to point out to you where and how to look in direct experience so that you can see for sure for yourself whether there's a separate self-entity anywhere doing or being anything. As you might have noticed Shay, I like to maintain a specific skeleton structure to this process, which then allows us to explore much more loosely within each and every area within experience where a separate self might be found.

As you'll have seen, the initial questions point you towards looking into 'your' direct experience, which is, as I say, where I'll be frequently pointing you to look, and where this investigation will take place. That's as opposed to thought content. Direct experience is the very core of what we're doing here with this. Essentially, and utterly fundamentally, all there is, and can ever be, is here right now in this moment. So looking to see whether a separate and separating self is to be found can only take place within direct experience of this. Now. There's nothing else. It follows therefore that all of our work to realise and actually know that there is no self is done by investigating In direct experience. To this end, we can divide direct experience into thought, sensations (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling [tactile and kinaesthetic] and an unmistakable sense of Aliveness (presence/being). I referred to the useful article on direct experience in the introductory post, and you might want to have another look at that.

As I keep saying, the whole of this investigation centres around looking in direct experience to see if a self-entity can be found anywhere there. This is accompanied by seeing that it is in thoughts and only in thoughts that 'I' ever 'occurs' and that 'I' doesn't actually occur there either because thoughts, or at least their contents, are neither reliable nor real in any sense.

So, let's start at last investigating in direct experience where a self-entity might be by looking at sense arisings and the self as experiencer:

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?

If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?

Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.


Pete
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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Re: Request for Moondog to guide me

Postby shayba » Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:25 pm

Hi Pete,

I read and re-read the article on D.E. - yes, very useful, thanks. I feel relatively comfortable with this kind of looking due to my meditation practice and the work of Douglas Harding. I just love his approach, curiosity, wisdom and courage. A true innovator !!

I have a bit of trouble with thoughts though. Thoughts are real but their contents are suspect, or, in your words:
thoughts, or at least their contents, are neither reliable nor real in any sense.
I would like to ask you to elaborate a bit on this, an example might be helpful thank you(University analogy?)

Often, I hear music "in my head" (perhaps in awareness or in experience will be more precise). Are these thoughts? And what about the contents of these thoughts?? What is the difference between the music in my head and hearing "real" music? And, in general what's the connection between experiencing and imagining an experience?

My honest answer would be that the imagined experience is just a memory, and therefore "dead", as opposed to the "real" experience which has an "alive" and spontaneous quality to it. I guess it is similar to the difference between listening to the same record many times instead of going to hear the band playing live - interesting, now I can see how perfect this word is to describe playing music in front of a "live" audience!!
I know that most thoughts are verbal, but this does not seem to apply to music.

What do you think about all this?

Here are my answers to your questions:
When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?

If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?

Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.
No. I cannot find an "I" there in all these. There is just experience.

Sometimes the "I" creeps in through the back door though...for example "There is no-one looking, just MY experience !!"

I came up with this experiment - I stood a few feet away from a large mirror. Thats a strong stimulus for "I am looking at Myself"...but in D.E there is just seeing !! its just the experince of moving pictures :) I cant even tell the distance of the objects, its all here !! just like a baby sees the world. Pure Magic, so alive !!

Shay

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Re: Request for Moondog to guide me

Postby moondog » Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:03 pm

Hi Shay,
When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing? If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer? Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.
No. I cannot find an "I" there in all these. There is just experience. Sometimes the "I" creeps in through the back door though...for example "There is no-one looking, just MY experience !!"
So, great, you can't find any 'you' doing any experiencing of the senses. I-thoughts just tend to insert themselves like that don't they? But, so long as it's recognised that they are, like any other thoughts, just impersonal arisings, there's really no problem. Granted, that sounds easier said than done, but we'll move now on to thoughts and thinking, to see whether there's any separate self involved anywhere there.
I came up with this experiment - I stood a few feet away from a large mirror. Thats a strong stimulus for "I am looking at Myself"...but in D.E there is just seeing !! its just the experince of moving pictures :) I cant even tell the distance of the objects, its all here !! just like a baby sees the world. Pure Magic, so alive !!
Lovely description. You got it, you nailed it!
I have a bit of trouble with thoughts though. Thoughts are real but their contents are suspect or, in your words:
thoughts, or at least their contents, are neither reliable nor real in any sense. I would like to ask you to elaborate a bit on this, an example might thank you
I'm not entirely sure what you're looking for here Shay. Your subsequent question and answer around mental music and live music appear to give a reasonable explanation to your query to me.

Put simply, if you take an orange, can you see it, touch it, taste it, smell it? Think of an orange. Is it an accurate visual representation of an actual, real orange? How can you be sure? Can you touch it, taste it and smell It? Are the 'real' orange and the 'mental' orange the same or even similar in any way?

To quote Rupert Spira, The thinking mind is a series of abstract concepts with which we, as a culture, have agreed by common consent to represent our experience so as to communicate.

Anyway, that very neatly takes us to looking at whether there's any self-entity to be found in thoughts and thinking:

Not from what you think, but from direct experience, please say:

Where do thoughts come from?

Are you in control of them?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Can a thought think?


Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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Re: Request for Moondog to guide me

Postby shayba » Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:57 pm

Pete,
I'm not entirely sure what you're looking for here Shay. Your subsequent question and answer around mental music and live music appear to give a reasonable explanation to your query to me.
Yes, I always try to answer my own questions. Just wanted to hear your point of view on it.
Where do thoughts come from?
Nowhere.
Are you in control of them?
It seems so, at least to some extent. It seems as if "I" can reduce the amount of thoughts, or induce thinking. Meditaion practice seems to "still" the mind, but I guess the real question is "who is meditating ? not "Me"...Meditation is just happening, just like any other happening !! It is not personal or owned by anyone.
Can you stop a thought from coming?
No, even though sometimes it seems so. But that's just another thought that takes me into imagination territory.
Can you stop it in the middle?
Same answer as the previous one.
Do you know what the next thought will be?
No way, might be easier to win the lottery !!
Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?
Yes. A thought of a table points to something real, but the "I" thought points to a mental image that does not exists. Its like the difference between a thought of a building and a thought about a University. Other than that, the "I" thought is much more frequent !!

Can a thought think?
No, thank god. There is enough trouble with thoughts as it is !!

Pete, I want to add that I can see sometimes how the "I" thought is added after a movement happens. For example, a thought appears "lets pick up these shoes" right after I start to squat. I Noticed this even before I was on the path, but after I read a pointer about this from the Gateless Gate App, I realized the connection.

I am not 100% confident with the thinking part of the investigation. I will continue to look and observe how it functions.

Thank you for your time and effort,
Shay

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Re: Request for Moondog to guide me

Postby moondog » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:12 pm

Hi Shay,
Are you in control of them?
It seems so, at least to some extent. It seems as if "I" can reduce the amount of thoughts, or induce thinking. Meditation practice seems to "still" the mind, but I guess the real question is "who is meditating ? not "Me"...Meditation is just happening, just like any other happening !! It is not personal or owned by anyone.
I can see that you haven't found that there's an actual 'you' doing any of this 'controlling' of thoughts sometimes. (The language here can be crude and tortuous, but it's all we've got!) But, aside from what thought tells you about it, what experiential evidence do you have that I" can reduce the amount of thoughts, or induce thinking? I know that when 'I', as it were 'bring a thought into focused awareness' that thought then subsides and there is stillness for a while, before another thought arises, unbidden. But there is never any self, any 'me', to be found in direct experience that initiates or makes this move from 'broad awareness' to 'focused awareness'.

Apart from the above, your answers are splendidly straightforward and to the point - the point being that there's no separate self to be found. However, you end by saying:
I am not 100% confident with the thinking part of the investigation. I will continue to look and observe how it functions.
Would you to tell me a bit more about that, indicating where the difficulty lies. Is it in thinking or experiencing?
Pete, I want to add that I can see sometimes how the "I" thought is added after a movement happens. For example, a thought appears "lets pick up these shoes" right after I start to squat. I Noticed this even before I was on the path, but after I read a pointer about this from the Gateless Gate App, I realized the connection.
Yes, it's an important observation and I'm glad you've noticed it. We'll be moving on to actions and doing etc. shortly. In the meantime, just keep looking at how the mind, the ego, aka just thoughts is constantly interrupting, sneaking in to say, ' Hey, look at me I did that. Isn't that clever/terrible (whatever)? I'm sooooo special aren't I? I need lots of attention don't I'

Have fun Shay. This should be fun!

Pete
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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Re: Request for Moondog to guide me

Postby shayba » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:14 pm

Dear pete,
Would you to tell me a bit more about that, indicating where the difficulty lies. Is it in thinking or experiencing?
Good news, it clicked!! Just needed another day of looking...
But, aside from what thought tells you about it, what experiential evidence do you have that I" can reduce the amount of thoughts, or induce thinking?
None. This is no different than the movement of my arm and the illusion that "I" did it. That "I" thought just has to take the credit for everything!! What a drama queen !!
just keep looking at how the mind, the ego, aka just thoughts is constantly interrupting, sneaking in to say, ' Hey, look at me I did that. Isn't that clever/terrible (whatever)? I'm sooooo special aren't I? I need lots of attention don't I'
I see it, it clear. Clearer than clear actually.

Pete, I promised you that you would be the second to know (after me), and now is the time to keep my word (well, actually I told my wife but that doesn't count... :)

I crossed the gateless gate !! This is mind blowing :) very tough to describe, and easy at the same time. Its as if nothing has changed and everything has change at the same time. A shift in perception. Instead of looking out of a small bowling ball with some peek holes in it, intimidated by the world, i am free. Well, I am not there to be free, but that's the best I can do. There is no "I" and there never was. Just a sucker that believed innocently every thought, and never questioned the "I" thought that was just everywhere, stuck like glue to every experience. I Just bought this thought without any investigation. Wowww...

There is no me. What a relief....phew. Just experiencing. "I" feel like an empty infinite bowl, ready to contain any experience, any happening. But there is no "I" - why should I get attached again?

Now I understand what the sages meant when they said they were both empty and full at the same time.

"I" was expecting fear, but it didn't come (except for the first day, but it passed pretty fast, perhaps because I didn't panic).

There is this deep feeling of gratitude. Thank you Pete. Your clean style and neat structure really helped me focus. You rule Pete. I really can't explain more. Words do have their limitations...

I would like us to continue and complete this amazing investigation. I want to make sure I have everything 100% clear. Other than that, this is too much fun !!

Yes, yes, yes...
Shay

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moondog
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:14 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Request for Moondog to guide me

Postby moondog » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:03 pm

Hi Shay,
I crossed the gateless gate !! This is mind blowing :) very tough to describe, and easy at the same time. Its as if nothing has changed and everything has change at the same time.
Wow Shay, that's just great news! I'm really happy for 'you', and so pleased that you asked me to guide you and that it's worked out.

Your comments leave me in no doubt that you've seen through the illusion of a separate self and, once seen, that can't be unseen. But, I agree that we should carry on with this enquiry. I'm sure that it will help deepen and clarify your seeing, and that we'll both enjoy it!

So, you've looked at sense arisings and thinking and have clearly found no separate self. Now let's move on to acting, doing, controlling to see whether you can see any trace of a 'you' there.

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing?
Try all kinds of stuff.

Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?

Look to see whether, when 'you' do these things there is sometimes a thought, just after that says, 'I did that.'

Are all actions automatic?


You done good :)

Pete
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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shayba
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 8:53 pm

Re: Request for Moondog to guide me

Postby shayba » Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:00 pm

Pete,
It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?
Same, Same. Just walking, No one can take credit for it.
How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing?
Try all kinds of stuff.
Same thing.
Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?
There is no "I" for any of these actions. I can't say if they are 'automatic' because I dont exactly know what controls and regulates these actions. I just know for sure it's not "ME".
That said, the body-mind seems to function like a biological computer, on 'auto' mode.
Are all actions automatic?
Same answer as my previous one.
Look to see whether, when 'you' do these things there is sometimes a thought, just after that says, 'I did that.'
Yes !! (I wrote about it in my previous post).

Take care,
Shay

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moondog
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:14 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Request for Moondog to guide me

Postby moondog » Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:48 pm

Hi Shay,

Not surprisingly, all your answers are spot on.

Moving on and looking for any separate self in choosing and deciding, please have a go at the following exercise:

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

Also, you might find the following short video clip from BBC Horizon - The Secret You on Neuroscience and Freewill interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3AiOS4nCE . It demonstrates scientifically that our decisions and choices are made a full 6 seconds before we think we make them, i.e. before a thought arises saying, "I decided to do this." There is no substitute for looking in direct experience, but this is excellent scientific corroboration for what is to be found, or rather not found, in direct experience.

Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'


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