Requesting Eyeman...

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Mettasattva
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Requesting Eyeman...

Postby Mettasattva » Sat May 17, 2014 8:01 pm

Hello

I'm requesting Eyeman to guide me please.

Thank you.
Mettasattva

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eyeman
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Re: Requesting Eyeman...

Postby eyeman » Sat May 17, 2014 8:38 pm

Hi Mettasattva,

Great to have you return to the guiding process, I'm aware that you've been here before and have taken a break from the guiding process, I'd like to start completely from scratch, yes we may well be repeating some exercises but please try to take each question and respond honestly from the here and now.

It would be best if we are able to keep the entire dialogue within this thread, so we should avoid private messages or discussion relating to anything discussed here. Where possible, if we are able to keep any theoretical discussion to a minimum, this will greatly help to produce a positive outcome.

Here's a reminder of the ground rules.
  1. You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!"
    I am not your teacher, all I can do is point, you look, until clear seeing happens.
  2. In general, I will ask questions, you look deeply and honestly, and respond.
  3. Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.
  4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers, and stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
  5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
  6. Please learn to use the quote function; See these instructions


If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin.


What are your expectations for this process?

How will it change you?

How will this feel?




You can press 'subscribe to this topic in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive an email every time I post here.

Mike :-)

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Mettasattva
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Re: Requesting Eyeman...

Postby Mettasattva » Sat May 17, 2014 9:19 pm

Hey

Yes I've seen the above and wish you to guide me.

"What are your expectations for this process?"

Well to be honest... I have an expectation of being less attatched to my thoughts and feelings.

"How will it change you?"

Hopefully I'll be less attatched to my thoughts and feelings :o)
And to be honest I don't know... I feel somewhat changed since doing this process before, a little more free in my heart.

"How will this feel?"

I'm not sure... Good I imagine.

I have an old laptop here that won't ( for unknown reasons ) allow me to do the quote thing... I hope what I've done here is good enough.

thanks Mike.
Mettasattva

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eyeman
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Re: Requesting Eyeman...

Postby eyeman » Sat May 17, 2014 11:38 pm

Hi Mettasattva & Thanks for your response,

No problem with the quote function, let's get stuck in:

Consider the following statement:

Nothing exists outside the present moment.

Take a little time to consider that statement throughout your daily life if need be. Look and consider it in different situations, and see if you can actually find anything outside the present moment.

Thanks

Mike :-)

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Re: Requesting Eyeman...

Postby Mettasattva » Sun May 18, 2014 8:18 pm

Hey Mike

"Nothing exists outside the present moment."

Ok I've spent most of the day asking myself this question and I can't say I find anything existing outside the present moment... I see when I'm seeing and when I close my eyes I no longer see anything, except black or some colours flashing here and there, which happens now... I only hear now also, though hearing seems more continuous from waking up in the morning... I can only touch something now, the past being in my mind as is the future... the same with taste.

It all happens now.
Mettasattva

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eyeman
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Re: Requesting Eyeman...

Postby eyeman » Sun May 18, 2014 10:07 pm

Hiya Mettasattva,

Nice clear answer, thanks :-) Yes, it's always been the same, only the present moment exists, even if we think about something from the past or something we imagine in the future, the idea can only be accessed right now in the present moment.

Let's look a little deeper now at throughts & ideas:

Thoughts are real, but the content is not.

Consider that statement in light of your own ongoing experience, and share what you find.

Thanks

Mike :-)

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Re: Requesting Eyeman...

Postby Mettasattva » Mon May 19, 2014 7:24 pm

Hey

"Thoughts are real, but the content is not."

This is an interesting statement... Thoughts are real, or thinking happens, this I can see clearly. The content however is a little more difficult for to pin down as not being real. I can think of a yellow elephant and that doesn't make the elephant real, or I could think I have 10 million pounds in my bank account and that also doesn't make it real. I can think I have a body or a physical experience and that body or physical experience is real... or I can think I have friends and agian that is real.

So in my experience it would or does depend on the validity of the content.

?

:)
Mettasattva

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Re: Requesting Eyeman...

Postby eyeman » Mon May 19, 2014 7:53 pm

Hiya Mettasatva,

"Thoughts are real, but the content is not."

This is an interesting statement... Thoughts are real, or thinking happens, this I can see clearly. The content however is a little more difficult for to pin down as not being real. I can think of a yellow elephant and that doesn't make the elephant real, or I could think I have 10 million pounds in my bank account and that also doesn't make it real. I can think I have a body or a physical experience and that body or physical experience is real... or I can think I have friends and agian that is real.

So in my experience it would or does depend on the validity of the content.
This is a good place to start from, so lets begin to break it down and find out for sure.

In the above examples, there appear to be two types of 'thought', one imagining something that doesn't exist (such as yellow elephant), and also imagining something that does exist.

We need find out if imagining a REAL thing, means that the 'imagining' is Reality itself or just symbolic of reality.

Imagine a room which you are not currently in, try to imagine it in as much detail as you can, then go into that room and describe the difference between your experience when imagining it and actually experiencing it directly in the here and now.

Pose the question to yourself: If the content of a thought is a friend, if tomorrow you had the bad news that this friend had suddenly died, why would this be any loss if the friend is still real insight a thought?

Thanks

Mike :-)

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Mettasattva
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Re: Requesting Eyeman...

Postby Mettasattva » Mon May 19, 2014 9:41 pm

Hey


"Imagine a room which you are not currently in, try to imagine it in as much detail as you can, then go into that room and describe the difference between your experience when imagining it and actually experiencing it directly in the here and now."

This is easy.... The differance is that when I think about the other room it's in my head. When I enter the room physically other senses are involved, I can see with my eyes and touch the surfaces with my hands etc... Also there is more detail when physically standing in the room, whilst thinking about the room I missed out some of the details...eg...the washing up on the draining board. (it was the kitchen).

"Pose the question to yourself: If the content of a thought is a friend, if tomorrow you had the bad news that this friend had suddenly died, why would this be any loss if the friend is still real insight a thought?"

I'm not sure.... The way I think about that is that the reality would have changed, meaning the friend would no longer exist in my reality. The friend would become the yellow elephant. Untill I get the news of death I assume they are alive... I get that assumption isn't real in the now, but in this case the assumption becomes true when I next speak to them or see them, which is in the future so then not real here and now. This is where it gets a little confusing for me... I have the experience of thinking about things and then they become real which gives me the Idea that I know that something is real because my experience is thoughts become things, even if those things are just emotion. and I know that it's just an idea, however the idea can become manifested. The manifestation may well be in the future but when it manifests it becomes now.

?
Mettasattva

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Re: Requesting Eyeman...

Postby eyeman » Mon May 19, 2014 10:26 pm

Hi Mettasattva,

Let's start working through some of the points you've raised as there's a lot of ideas in there - which is fine when there's a belief that ideas are important, it doesn't matter how long this bit takes, it's vital that we gain clarity on this before moving on :-)
This is easy.... The differance is that when I think about the other room it's in my head. When I enter the room physically other senses are involved, I can see with my eyes and touch the surfaces with my hands etc... Also there is more detail when physically standing in the room, whilst thinking about the room I missed out some of the details...eg...the washing up on the draining board. (it was the kitchen).
It sounds from the above that you'd agree that imagining the kitchen is only at best 'representative' or 'symbolic' of the real thing. Would that be correct? Have you ever imagined something that you have experienced directly at some point in the past, and on experiencing directly again perhaps years later, found it to be quite different to what your memory of it was?
I'm not sure.... The way I think about that is that the reality would have changed, meaning the friend would no longer exist in my reality. The friend would become the yellow elephant.
It appears as though you're instinctively seeing the truth here but there's still some confusion. You say the 'reality would have changed' meaning the friend would no longer exist. Do you see that the reality of the friend who can be seen, touched, heard etc... is quite different from the 'idea' of that friend?
I get that assumption isn't real in the now, but in this case the assumption becomes true when I next speak to them or see them, which is in the future so then not real here and now. This is where it gets a little confusing for me... I have the experience of thinking about things and then they become real which gives me the Idea that I know that something is real because my experience is thoughts become things, even if those things are just emotion. and I know that it's just an idea, however the idea can become manifested. The manifestation may well be in the future but when it manifests it becomes now.
There is a lot of thinking in the above which depends on a 'future' and 'past', since we know these are only ideas in themselves and not a reality that can ever be experienced, it seems that using these ideas may be less than reliable.

When you say ' I have the experience of thinking about things and then they become real',

have you also had experience of thinking about things and then them not becoming real?

Since this is a totally honest and direct enquiry into what is true and what is not, let's test the idea that thinking about something can make it real. For this we need to rule out the element of chance (eg: these things could appear through other means). So if I give you a list of objects, what likelihood, do you think there is that you could think them into reality within the next 24 hours, week, month, year?

1) A green cup which has a picture of Einstein on it. 2) A cake in the shape of a machine gun. 3) A bottle of tap water from New Zealand.


Please let me know if I mis-interpret any of your answers at any time.

Thanks

Mike :-)

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Re: Requesting Eyeman...

Postby Mettasattva » Mon May 19, 2014 11:09 pm

Hey

"It sounds from the above that you'd agree that imagining the kitchen is only at best 'representative' or 'symbolic' of the real thing. Would that be correct? Have you ever imagined something that you have experienced directly at some point in the past, and on experiencing directly again perhaps years later, found it to be quite different to what your memory of it was?"

Yes that is correct, Imagining the kitchen is different from the actual experience of the kitchen. And yes the past memory of an experience is different from the same experience now.

"Do you see that the reality of the friend who can be seen, touched, heard etc... is quite different from the 'idea' of that friend?"

Yes I can see this, however it only tells me that the experience is different.


"have you also had experience of thinking about things and then them not becoming real?"

Yes.

"So if I give you a list of objects, what likelihood, do you think there is that you could think them into reality within the next 24 hours, week, month, year?
1) A green cup which has a picture of Einstein on it. 2) A cake in the shape of a machine gun. 3) A bottle of tap water from New Zealand."

I have the belief that they all could be manifested in time by my focus on them if I really wanted them..."Our focus determines our reality" to quote the Buddha in translation. And I do have the experience of thoughts becoming things...
I can also see that it would be easy to manifest these items if I took physical action to do so... I have on a regular basis, the experience of actively putting thoughts in my mind to change the way I feel about something and that happens in the present moment... If I'm angry about something it's because of my thinking and if I change my thinking I can change the anger into acceptance...for instance. Whether I'm thinking of the past or the future I'm doing it now...

However this is dependant on time... I can not just think these items into existance now.
Mettasattva

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Re: Requesting Eyeman...

Postby eyeman » Tue May 20, 2014 1:07 am

Hiya,

Ok, can you see that if we imagine something, then that thought is imaginary instead of real? The difference being it's not something that truly exists as anything other than a thought and once the thought passes that content passes with it. A good example might be imaging food - I wonder how long we could live off of imaginary food?

If you imagine a friend, plus that friend exists as a real thing, does that mean there's two of this friend? If the 'thought friend' IS a real thing, then wouldn't this be the case?

Without speculating, can you think of one example where the content of the thought is something real in it's own right.


Mike :-)

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Re: Requesting Eyeman...

Postby Mettasattva » Tue May 20, 2014 2:07 am

Hey

"Ok, can you see that if we imagine something, then that thought is imaginary instead of real? The difference being it's not something that truly exists as anything other than a thought and once the thought passes that content passes with it. A good example might be imaging food - I wonder how long we could live off of imaginary food?"

No... I believe that thoughts become things! there is a time delay between thinking something and it manifesting as real. If u were hungry and thought about food a lot, then I believe u would find/get food from somewhere, it would become real because of the focus of ur mind. U can't eat ur thoughts though.

"If you imagine a friend, plus that friend exists as a real thing, does that mean there's two of this friend? If the 'thought friend' IS a real thing, then wouldn't this be the case?"

Err no... the thought of the friend lives in my head but the friend still exists outside of that whether I can see the friend or not. Until the friend dies. Does someone become un-real because no-one is seeing/hearing or touching them? I don't believe they do. If we share a mutual friend and u die I still see that friend, the friend doesn't just dissappear because u died. What a empty world that would be... teehe.

"Without speculating, can you think of one example where the content of the thought is something real in it's own right."

Yes... the thought "there are physical bodies."
Mettasattva

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Re: Requesting Eyeman...

Postby eyeman » Tue May 20, 2014 10:18 am

Good Morning Mettasattva :-)
I believe that thoughts become things! there is a time delay between thinking something and it manifesting as real. If u were hungry and thought about food a lot, then I believe u would find/get food from somewhere, it would become real because of the focus of ur mind. U can't eat ur thoughts though.
This investigation is purely about discerning what IS real from what ISN'T real. Do you see that the above is pure speculation. You've agreed that the future doesn't exist as a real thing, yet the above totally relies on the imagined future.

If you believe that you would find/get food from somewhere after thinking about food a lot, then if the 'thought' was real food, then surely you wouldn't need to look for it or find it? As you say, you cannot eat your thoughts - if imagined food is as real as real food, then why not?
Err no... the thought of the friend lives in my head but the friend still exists outside of that whether I can see the friend or not. Until the friend dies. Does someone become un-real because no-one is seeing/hearing or touching them? I don't believe they do. If we share a mutual friend and u die I still see that friend, the friend doesn't just dissappear because u died. What a empty world that would be... teehe.
If an imagined friend or object is indeed a real thing, then why would that 'real imagined thing' not continue to exist when the thought has passed. Thoughts can represent or be symbolic of real things, but are they the real things that they are symbolic of? A map is symbolic of the terrain but is it really the terrain?
"there are physical bodies."
You have seen for yourself when imagining the real kitchen, that the thought is not the same, not as detailed and sometimes inaccurate. You have also seen that you cannot imagine something that doesn't exist into existence (such as a yellow elephant).

When you say 'there are physical bodies', this is a concept rather than a physical thing, if we imagine it to be a singular body (to objectify the thought content), then does that body thought have anything other than imagined substance? If you were asked 'There is a scar on person 'X's' leg, where is it? Could you know, without any direct experience of the real body?

Mettasattva, holds an assumption that thought content is real, (in this case 'becomes' real), in order to sort out what is real from what is fiction, we need to test this to find out right here and right now, whether this is true. If it's true, then are you able to think something such as a green guitar into existence right now?

Mike :-)

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Re: Requesting Eyeman...

Postby Mettasattva » Tue May 20, 2014 10:34 am

Hey..... I will get back to u on this a bit later.... I would just like to say that I have not said thoughts are real things! I'm getting the impression that u think that is what I'm saying? I am saying thoughts are imaginings in my mind. I am unable to state that the content of thought is NOT real because I have physical evidence that thoughts do in fact BECOME real. The issue for me here is that If thought content really wasn't real then how can there be a future? How does anything come into being....It's not so simple for me to dismiss content as not real when I see that thought content shapes my future. ??? Is that a bit clearer?
Mettasattva


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