Request Hare as a guide!

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Aka1508
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Request Hare as a guide!

Postby Aka1508 » Mon May 12, 2014 7:43 pm

Hi, I'm requesting Hare as a guide, please?

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Hare
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Re: Request Hare as a guide!

Postby Hare » Mon May 12, 2014 9:24 pm

Hi,
this is Hare, hello and welcome!
Before we dive into this magical process together, I would love to hear something of the journey that has led you to this point.
Sending you all good wishes,
H

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Aka1508
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Re: Request Hare as a guide!

Postby Aka1508 » Mon May 12, 2014 11:48 pm

Hi Hare

I really appreciate your prompt reply. I love the invitation contained in the words 'dive' and 'magical process" "together" .

About the journey... In some ways it started some twenty years ago... It also started last year. The is also a sense that the journey starts each moment, or that there is no journey, just the process of living the best way I'm able to.

I'm a Buddhist practitioner committed to practice and to embody the teachings of the Buddha. As far as I understand we gain liberation/enlightenment if we just manage to have an Insight into the nature of the three lakshanas: anica, anatta and dukkha.

So my practice has been pointing to that direction ... I dedicate my life to practising and understanding the nuts and bolts of meditation practice mainly through the Satipatthana. When I say "dedicate my life" y mean it literally. My practice is to bridge the secular and spiritual, therefore I show people how meditation can and does alleviate suffering ... For me the fourth satipatthana (the satipatthana of reality) is a way of looking closely the other three satipatthanas in order to reveal their temporary nature (anica) ... And so on.

Why am I here? Why am I asking to be guided? Because I would like to deepen my understanding into the nature of self. I would like to "see", as a deeply felt experience, the truth contained in the teaching of anata (no-self). I understand you LU guys and gals are able to guide practitioners through a process of deep enquiry that could eventually take the person being guided to see that truth (anata).

Anata has been elusive for me. I guess because the ego don't want to disappear... It therefore will do anything to protect itself. So I need a little help... Or a huge help.

Sheers...
A word of warning... I'm in a different continent from yours. The time difference is six hours -you are ahead. Let's take that into account in our communication. Shall we?

Till next time.

Akita

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Re: Request Hare as a guide!

Postby Hare » Tue May 13, 2014 6:32 am

Hi Akita,

Thanks, this gives me a clear sense of your 'journey' here. I am pleased and honoured to be your guide.

Before we start our inquiry, please can you read the following LU ground rules, which have been found to be helpful. Let me know if you are happy to follow these:

1. You agree to post at least once a day.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical
and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put
all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation
practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Regarding the time difference, I will generally check this thread in the morning and / or evening, British Summer time. Did you have something specific in mind in your request to take the time difference into account?

Regarding number 5, bear in mind that this relates to all views and assumptions, including your current understanding of the dharma and ideas about what insight into anata might look like.

Which leads me to ask about what expectations you have. How do you imagine it will feel to really see that the self is a fabrication of mind? What will be different?

Hare

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Re: Request Hare as a guide!

Postby Hare » Wed May 14, 2014 6:17 am

Hi Akita,

Greetings :-)

Regarding posting once a day, if need be, that can simply be to say 'still here', 'get back to you soon' or similar.

Warm wishes,
Hare

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Re: Request Hare as a guide!

Postby Hare » Wed May 14, 2014 10:49 pm

Hi Akita,

Hoping to hear back from you soon,

Hare

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Aka1508
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Re: Request Hare as a guide!

Postby Aka1508 » Fri May 16, 2014 10:57 pm

Hi Akita,

Hi Hare...

Thanks, this gives me a clear sense of your 'journey' here. I am pleased and honoured to be your guide.

thank you, it feels good to read that.

Before we start our inquiry, please can you read the following LU ground rules, which have been found to be helpful. Let me know if you are happy to follow these:

1. You agree to post at least once a day.

First, I would like to apologise. The delay in answering has to do with being away and a busy period. As from now, I commit myself to writing once a day.


2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to

I will be more than happy to answer all your questions.

3. Responses require your utmost honesty

I'll do my best and more... it would be interesting to explore honesty...

4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical
and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.

I read what you wrote and will do my best. I trust you'll set me right if I do otherwise.

5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put
all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation
practice, it is fine to continue that.

OK.

6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Regarding the time difference, I will generally check this thread in the morning and / or evening, British Summer time. Did you have something specific in mind in your request to take the time difference into account?

Perhaps that sometimes I check my e-mails late afternoon or evening

Regarding number 5, bear in mind that this relates to all views and assumptions, including your current understanding of the dharma and ideas about what insight into anata might look like.

To put that aside would be an interesting exercise

Which leads me to ask about what expectations you have. How do you imagine it will feel to really see that the self is a fabrication of mind? What will be different?

My only expectation is to see through the illusion of self. I will be able to let go of ideas, beliefs and the like faster. Perhaps I will be able to communicate better with people I care for. May be some issues won't trouble me the way they do now.

Perhaps I have no idea how it would be like. I just trust that when it happens I will know.




Hare
Akita - I guess I din't get how to use the quote function. I'm not good at following instructions of this kind. I'm sorry, will learn for next communication.

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Re: Request Hare as a guide!

Postby Hare » Sat May 17, 2014 1:00 pm

Hi Akita,

Good to hear back from you. Thanks for agreeing to the 'ground rules'.

No worries about the quote function...

And thanks for saying something about your expectations. It's good to let go of all expectations - I love what you say here:
Perhaps I have no idea how it would be like. I just trust that when it happens I will know.
Yes and yes! :-)

OK, let's proceed:

Throughout this inquiry, I’ll be asking you to look, to see if a self can be found in direct experience. ‘Direct experience’ refers to the moment-to-moment, seamless experiencing that without a doubt IS: sensations, thoughts arising, and the unmistakable sense of being alive/aware (presence/being).

Being able to fully recognise the difference between direct experience on one hand and the content of thoughts / mental constructions on the other is key to this process. To help you get really clear, in your own immediate experience, try the following and get back to me with your findings:

There are 3 parts to this: firstly, imagine what it would feel like to run your hand over the surface of an object near you - a desk, the screen of your computer or a wall. Note what it’s like to imagine doing this. Now actually run your hand over that surface, fully experiencing the sensations in the moment. Lastly, try to remember what it felt like. Can you describe something of the difference between direct experience (the actual sensations of touching the object) and mental construction (imagining and remembering)?

Repeat the format of this investigation, this time focusing on taste. Take a raisin, or other small piece of food. Firstly imagine what it will taste like as vividly as you can. Then eat it with full awareness of the sensations. Finally, recollect the experience.

You can do something similar with other senses such as sound. Take a bell or gong (or other musical item). Imagine, directly experience, recollect.

You can take the experience of sight, or smell – invent your own exercise. Get really clear about the difference.

Enjoy!

:-) Hare

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Re: Request Hare as a guide!

Postby Aka1508 » Sat May 17, 2014 11:18 pm

Hi Akita,
Hi Hare
Good to hear back from you. Thanks for agreeing to the 'ground rules'.
Thank you for getting back to me so promptly.
No worries about the quote function...
Thanks. I'm giving it a go now... Eventually I will get there

You wrote:
Throughout this inquiry, I’ll be asking you to look, to see if a self can be found in direct experience. ‘Direct experience’ refers to the moment-to-moment, seamless experiencing that without a doubt IS: sensations, thoughts arising, and the unmistakable sense of being alive/aware (presence/being).

Being able to fully recognise the difference between direct experience on one hand and the content of thoughts / mental constructions on the other is key to this process.
My sense is that in the above paragraphs you are telling me that the key point to the process is:
- to differentiate between direct experiencing and thinking about an experience (we thought we had). Am I right?

To get me going, you are asking me to try a two part experiment that involves the use of the imagination and direct experiencing.

On the one hand I'm going to imagine how does it feel... how does it taste... how does it looks... how does it smell...
On the other, I'm going to experience this directly... I mean, I will feel, taste, look and so on... then report back in three stages:
first: how did i imagine it will feel like....
second: how did it actually feel
third: the difference

Hope I've got the idea ok... 'cos that's what I'll do next.
Get really clear about the difference.

Enjoy!


I'll try...

Here I go...

I would like to say that it wasn't easy to do... As soon as I started the experiment at a coffee shop... I was sitting and looking at the wood the table is made of... how would it feel, I asked myself.

Imagination...

- rough
- unpleasant
- don't know
- like wood ... who does wood feels like?.. no answer to that...
- hard

Experience...
touched with both hands, first, second and ring fingers ... there is a clearer sensation coming through my left fingers... how does it feel like? At first didn't have words ... then, I said, well... rough, hard, pleasant, like wood? dunno...

it came to mind touching a specific person... then I thought aggh, it would feel really nice to do that... what makes it nice? I asked myself?... then went back to the exercise... I was finding it difficult ... what are you getting at?.. was asking to this faceless Hare.

Smell...
Imagining the smell of roses...
Remember the smell of roses. I guess of a particular rose. Noticing that I have a memory of how a rose smells like... but not all the roses smell like a rose, my particular rose... I guess.

Smelling a rose...
A friend got four dozen roses! I got down to smell them... noticing disappointment... they don't smell like roses. Then I have an idea of how a rose smells like... and now, 48 roses smell completely different... I can't describe the smell of the rose really. I can't even say that I remember the particular rose whose particular smell I remember.

Tasting a sweet made of tamarindo, chilli and sugar...
Before I go down again to bring back my studio such a sweet, I close my eyes to imagine its taste, I get a clear memory, but I realise that I can't describe it (the taste), even if the memory is so vivid that Im anticipating eating it! How does tamarindo tastes? I really don't know! How does chilli tastes? Honestly, I can't describe it? How does tamarindo mixed with chilli and sugar tastes? I don't know. My answer is: like tamarindo, chilli and sugar... but can't find words to describe what Im remembering. How do I know that it is a memory of such a taste? I just know.

Now, I'm going for the tamarindo enchilado (that's how it is called)

Well. Have tried my tamarindo with chilli and sugar. Guess what? Can't describe how it taste like.

Cheers...

Akita

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Re: Request Hare as a guide!

Postby Hare » Sun May 18, 2014 11:04 am

Hi Akita,
first: how did i imagine it will feel like....
second: how did it actually feel
third: the difference

Hope I've got the idea ok... 'cos that's what I'll do next.
Yes, you have definitely got the main point of this -great reading your observations.

From your observations, can you make a general statement that applies to all of these different investigations, describing the difference? The point about 'the difference' may be so obvious that it could be missed - don't be afraid to state the blindingly obvious! (What is the difference between a thought or image of a glass of water and an actual glass of water? Which one can quench your thirst? Which is more 'real', just in the ordinary, everyday sense of the word? Which of those can you 'really' taste and experience directly?)

Try this:

Sometime when you are sitting quietly, close your eyes and get a sense of your body. You may find there is a combination of impressions including sensations + a mental image of its shape and position. Which part of those impressions feels closer to direct experience? The sensations, or the mental image of what you think you look like? Do the sensations precisely match the mental impression? If they differ, how do they differ? Look in your immediate experience, and report back.

Let me know if / when you feel you're getting clear about the difference. You might want to play around with this further, using each of the senses.
Well. Have tried my tamarindo with chilli and sugar. Guess what? Can't describe how it taste like.
Yes! Spot on!
'In the tasted, only the tasted...'

Direct experience is 'beyond the reach of words and concepts'. We have to use words to the best of our ability to communicate here, but let's not lose sight of the actual, ineffable experience. Throughout this investigation, we are going to be treading this line between direct experience, which can never be fully encapsulated in words, and the attempt to communicate through words. We do our best!

If you are happy to do so, I suggest we abbreviate 'direct experience' to DE from now onward.


One further question for you:

There is NO "I" or "me"! What comes up?


Delightful to engage with you Akita!

:-) Hare

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Aka1508
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Re: Request Hare as a guide!

Postby Aka1508 » Mon May 19, 2014 5:14 pm

Good morning Hare...

Nice to be here sitting quietly, reading your words and noticing a smile coming up to my face ... the experience with the tamarindo with chilli and sugar also comes to mind... and honestly, even though I have a memory of its taste, I can't describe it.

Next time I eat tamarindo with chilli and sugar, I will see whether this memory affects the eating experience!

You wrote:
From your observations, can you make a general statement that applies to all of these different investigations, describing the difference? The point about 'the difference' may be so obvious that it could be missed - don't be afraid to state the blindingly obvious! (What is the difference between a thought or image of a glass of water and an actual glass of water? Which one can quench your thirst? Which is more 'real', just in the ordinary, everyday sense of the word? Which of those can you 'really' taste and experience directly?)
All I can say from experience; is that what feels real each moment is the experience itself.

I speak about each 'experience' (what's experience?), because when I was touching the wood table, i did it in different parts and each part felt different. None corresponded to my idea of 'how does it feel touching the wood table?

The same happened with tamarindos... each tamarindo tasted like that particular tamarindo. Sometimes it tasted like other tamarindos... yet I tried to see whether the idea of how a tamarindo tastes was influencing the experience...

it was an interesting experiment.

This opens an extraordinary window to just being, to just experiencing ... and a motivation to watch the mind, its memories, its thinking faculty...
Try this:

Sometime when you are sitting quietly, close your eyes and get a sense of your body. You may find there is a combination of impressions including sensations + a mental image of its shape and position. Which part of those impressions feels closer to direct experience? The sensations, or the mental image of what you think you look like? Do the sensations precisely match the mental impression? If they differ, how do they differ? Look in your immediate experience, and report back.
Firstly, it is interesting to experience both 'the mental image' and the felt sensation... because in some ways the mental image feels real, like a mental image of course, not the real thing... and the felt sensation in my legs, feet, lower, middle and upper back feels like a myriad of sensations running through them... Definitely, so far, the felt sensation in the body feels more real than the mental image. I'll keep experimenting...
One further question for you:

There is NO "I" or "me"! What comes up?


My immediate answer without delay ... was 'Of course, you are right'... then what came up next was: how do I know?

It is delightful to engage with you too Hare...

till next time

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Re: Request Hare as a guide!

Postby Hare » Tue May 20, 2014 4:57 pm

Hi Akita,

Apologies for the delayed response - I was away from my computer and unable to properly access LU.
This opens an extraordinary window to just being, to just experiencing
Yes!
Definitely, so far, the felt sensation in the body feels more real than the mental image. I'll keep experimenting...
Are you now feeling clear on the difference between direct experience (DE) and thought / images / mental constructions / stories?
There is NO "I" or "me"! What comes up?


My immediate answer without delay ... was 'Of course, you are right'... then what came up next was: how do I know?
How do you know? By looking in DE...and looking again...

Tune in to a sound or sounds you can hear now. Is there a 'me', 'I' or 'self', doing the hearing? Or does the hearing just happen without any need for a self 'making it happen'? You could repeat this a few times and let me know what you find.

:-) Hare

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Re: Request Hare as a guide!

Postby Hare » Fri May 23, 2014 10:04 am

Hi Akita,

I'm still here, are you?

The posting daily guideline is one of the things that makes this process so effective - fine to just say 'get back to you soon' or whatever.

I now have the tapatalk app on my phone, so hopefully will be able to stay plugged in from now on, wherever I roam..

:-) Hare

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Re: Request Hare as a guide!

Postby Aka1508 » Fri May 23, 2014 2:40 pm

Morning Hare

I am... so sorry... it seems that I didn't click the send button after writing my reply to your post of the the 20th! Given the time differences I noticed that I tend to write the following day, so I've wrote my reply on the morning of the 21st, but wasn't sent. mmm... I yes, I didn't plugged in yesterday because I was on the road... My sincere apologies.

Tune in to a sound or sounds you can hear now. Is there a 'me', 'I' or 'self', doing the hearing? Or does the hearing just happen without any need for a self 'making it happen'? You could repeat this a few times and let me know what you find.
As you suggested, I have been doing this exercise again and again... and more and more I realise that the mental image/construction I might have of something isn't real. When that happens, my mind goes kind of 'what?' 'How come?' And just for a few seconds I start feeling like I don't really know nothing...

Also... after doing the experiment several times with the same object, I've noticed that each experience is unique and difficult to put into words. When I describe the experience (to myself) the sentence starts 'it is as if...' 'it is like...'

I mean I tend to describe an experience comparing it with something else; until I realise that that 'something else' is also a mental image, then it does not refer to anything 'real'.

Further, there are memories and I started noticing that a memory of an experience (smelling roses for example) usually filters the present experience of smelling a rose... but then, a thought occurred to me: but if I am always referring back to memories or past experiences, then when have I really experienced something for real? Do I make any sense. I mean, if in each present moment I'm usually in the past, have I really had a 'present moment experience'? That thought kind of blew up my mind.

What I have also noticed is that I pay more attention to what I do and how it feels... with no words... like touching the keyboard right now (stopped writing for a few seconds to feel the sensation under my fingers) ...

The whole process inspires me to be 'just here' ...

There has also been two nights where I have woken-up all of the sudden with this thought: 'what am I? It doesn't matter.'

There is a certainty that it doesn't matter... a sense of excitement and relief, as if I don't have to probe myself anymore to anyone... it is just like a sense ... that can't really explain it but I noticed that after that I had a couple of meetings with colleagues and felt open and kind of dropping expectations of what I would have liked to have happened in those meetings. As a result we had productive and enjoyable meetings where I felt just responding positively to one thing at a time.

At the same time I have experienced a sense of pressure in my belly, the pressure of uncertainty... and a question: where is all this about? where is it really leading to?

By for now...

Akita.

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Re: Request Hare as a guide!

Postby Aka1508 » Fri May 23, 2014 2:47 pm

Hi Akita,

I'm still here, are you?
Yes, I am...

The posting daily guideline is one of the things that makes this process so effective - fine to just say 'get back to you soon' or whatever.

I know what you mean, because it keeps me moving... or not... keeps me experiencing and procesing

I now have the tapatalk app on my phone, so hopefully will be able to stay plugged in from now on, wherever I roam..

I will have a look to that app myself, because I have a phone that I'm sure is capable of doing just that

I apologise again... as said, for some reason my previous message wasn't sent... also I was on the road because of the second anniversary of my mother's passing

Please, keep me on my toes; it is good for me
:-) Hare
Akita


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