request to be guided by Smudge

[WannaB]

Hello!
I am ready for the journey, Smudge.
Warm wishes from WannaB

[smudge]

Hi there WannaB,

Before we begin can we both agree to post at least once a day, unless we let each other know otherwise.
I will ask you questions and you will respond with upmost honesty. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
Lastly, Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”

Then, write me any reasons you are motivated to do this enquiry and also any expectations you have about what seeing through the illusion of self fully will be like, or if you have seen what it is like,

Warmest wishes
Smudge

[WannaB]

Hi Smudge,

Thanks for your swift response.

Please learn to use the quote function

tick

Posting at least once a day looks very doable.

I am mainly motivated to do this enquiry, because I would like to become less reactive.
I feel a lot of energy goes into reacting to this that and the other: mainly people.
I am hoping to see more clearly the mechanism of that, or see through it, but that may be setting my hopes too high for the time being.

Also I have seen the beneficial effect of this enquiry in other people and find this very encouraging.
Seeing through the illusion of self, would probably mean a softening of boundaries or them becoming permeable.
Things getting less defined. The past and future and present being less separate, more of a continuum. Experience outside, inside blending together.

Best wishes to you on this bright day,

WannaB

[smudge]

Ok. So drop even these expectations and be open to anything.
So, when you read: there is no you, nothing in there in control, nothing driving the show, no self at all..as in zero, what comes up?


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[WannaB]

What comes up is fresh energy, joy and tears of relief.
Thank you.

[smudge]

Nice!

So please do this literally (unless you don't like sultana's!) to ensure we are singing from the same hymn sheet of Direct experience (DE): ..and report back please: Take a sultana (or small piece of food) and look at it, now close your eyes and think about it, how 'did' it look? what do you 'think' it will taste like? How do you feel about the prospect of eating it or even about doing this exercise? Now put it in your mouth and directly experience it. Whats that like? What is the difference between thinking about, feeling and actually experiencing from this exercise?

Look forward to hearing x

[WannaB]

Take a sultana (or small piece of food) and look at it, now close your eyes and think about it, how 'did' it look?

I was still feeling the raisin in my hand, feeling a relationship with it, feeling it had already somehow become part of me, was blending with me, coinciding.

what do you 'think' it will taste like?

Slightly sour and crunchy. I imagine it in my mouth, between my teeth, dissolving on my tongue.

How do you feel about the prospect of eating it or even about doing this exercise?

I did this exercise a few weeks back in a group context not knowing it was coming up (although I had done the exercise before) and hadn't found it pleasant at all, as I had just brushed my teeth.The main thing about that time was that the experiment continued long after everyone seemed to be finished as I could still sense grainy bits on my tongue and between my teeth and a lingering sense of sourness on my tongue. It continued for at least an hour and after that I still felt it was continuing. This time looking at the raisin I saw a little stalk coming out and broke it off, so there was a raisin in my hand, with a tiny stalk lying beside it. I thought about its journey from grape to raisin and beyond.

Now put it in your mouth and directly experience it. Whats that like?

The raisin was in my mouth and the stalk still in my hand, so there was a mixed experience of raisin, tinged with the Palmers cream scent left on my hand and mixed in with the sound of someone talking in the room next door, sounds from outside, sourness from raisin on the lefthand side of my mouth. Still there now in fact.

What is the difference between thinking about, feeling and actually experiencing from this exercise?

. It was more like a continuum of experience happening, with the thinking, feeling and experiencing all happening in each stage.

I was a bit weary doing the exercise again, but I enjoyed the bit with the tiny stalk and wonder where it has gone now, since I lost track of it.

[smudge]

Great, lets zoom in some more..

I imagine it in my mouth, between my teeth, dissolving on my tongue.

Nice imagination.

I did this exercise a few weeks back in a group context not knowing it was coming up (although I had done the exercise before) and hadn't found it pleasant at all, as I had just brushed my teeth.The main thing about that time was that the experiment continued long after everyone seemed to be finished as I could still sense grainy bits on my tongue and between my teeth and a lingering sense of sourness on my tongue. It continued for at least an hour and after that I still felt it was continuing.

So a memory/more imagination came up yes?

This time looking at the raisin I saw a little stalk coming out and broke it off, so there was a raisin in my hand, with a tiny stalk lying beside it. I thought about its journey from grape to raisin and beyond.

More storys/imagination of where this raisin has apparently been...yes?

. It was more like a continuum of experience happening, with the thinking, feeling and experiencing all happening in each stage.

So do it again and describe only direct experience of the "raisin' in the 'mouth' minus the concepts of raisin/mouth etc..best you can please.

I was a bit weary doing the exercise again, but I enjoyed the bit with the tiny stalk and wonder where it has gone now, since I lost track of it.

More story (with some feelings)..a nice one all be it.

So this is about distinguishing DE from thoughts about it, lets get really clear on this because this is where all future answers need to come from.

Smudge x

[WannaB]

So do it again and describe only direct experience of the "raisin' in the 'mouth' minus the concepts of raisin/mouth etc..best you can please.

Softness, movement, dissolving, sourness, crunching.

Interesting, dear Smudge.
I get a kot of pleasure out of my stories and fantasies.
Also I caught myself trying to understand what you wanted me to say and answering accordingly.
I have been trying to let go of the stories much more during the day and find myself quite woolly.

WannaB

[smudge]

Morning Wannabe

Softness, movement, dissolving, sourness, crunching.

Fabulous! So the difference is clear between DE and thoughts about it yes?

I get a kot of pleasure out of my stories and fantasies.

For sure, They get even more enjoyable when they are seen for what they are too.

I have been trying to let go of the stories

So from DIRECT EXPERIENCE ONLY, what is this I referred to and how does letting go happen?

Looking forward to hearing back, really Look.

Love Smudge xx

[WannaB]

So from DIRECT EXPERIENCE ONLY, what is this I referred to and how does letting go happen?

In thus context the I refers to intention being formed, memory coming up, noticing there is a story happening, ie a dreamlike sequence of thoughts and associations, feelings, and then the letting go is to experience directly, waking up in the moment, so the dreamlike experience dissolves and there is an experience of the present.

X WannaB

[smudge]

So am I right that letting go is the dreamlike experience dissolving, so thought dissolving? Sounding good.

We are already getting into the realm of free will (or absence of), before we explore this more lets stay with the apparent 'I'.

So when you say "I would like to be less reactive, what is being reactive? Less zoom in on a moment, so the next time reactivity happens, please write all the ingredients going on and what is doing the reacting,

x

[WannaB]

So am I right that letting go is the dreamlike experience dissolving, so thought dissolving?

Yes.

So when you say "I would like to be less reactive, what is being reactive? Less zoom in on a moment, so the next time reactivity happens, please write all the ingredients going on and what is doing the reacting.

This was a tough one, as there is quite a lot of reacting going on, which was then reacted to. It seemed all experience was a whole chain of reactions. It seemed there were various levels of 'I'ness and there were a lot of theoretical thoughts about that, a lot of mental chatter, forming sentences, internal dialogue. There was for instance a sense of distaste, then a judgment about 'me being reactive again', me being a person that is reactive, a me being blamed for the reaction arising and blaming a me that doesn't understand 'not me', a me that doesn't know. Later on this turned into 'blame' and 'not knowing', which felt clearer and more open. The sense of an I came with some sort of energetic contraction and something that felt like a hardening of a shell.
The reaction seemed to happen in a space without much awareness, and lots of thoughts. If there was clear noticing, the reaction would simply be and vanish. If there was a story going on, the reaction sparked off other reactions.

Phew.
x WannaB

[smudge]

It seemed there were various levels of 'I'ness

Seemingly..lets look closer..

All of the below are thoughts, yes? Can WannaB be found in thoughts other than a story/thoughts about WannaB?
Thoughts:

lot of theoretical thoughts about that, a lot of mental chatter, forming sentences
a judgment about 'me being reactive again'
me being a person that is reactive
blaming a me that doesn't understand 'not me', a me that doesn't know
a me being blamed
'blame' and 'not knowing'
If there was clear noticing, the reaction would simply be and vanish. If there was a story going on, the reaction sparked off other reactions.

Feelings

There was for instance a sense of distaste, then,, for the reaction arising
Later on this turned into, which felt clearer and more open.

Lets really turn towards the feelings, please describe fully and see if they are 'just' feelings arising and passing or a WannaB is feeling them?


Body

The sense of an I came with some sort of energetic contraction and something that felt like a hardening of a shell.
in a space without much awareness

Same here, where in the body is this going on? describe the DE (like the sultana)..What is body in DE?

So we have a whole arising and passing away of thoughts, feelings and sensations, really look at this display in DE...any I in this in DE?

Great looking, lets keep going, maybe some more reactivity will come to help out ;-)

Love Smudge

[WannaB]

All of the below are thoughts, yes? Can WannaB be found in thoughts other than a story/thoughts about WannaB?

No,there is no WannaB to be found outside of thoughts and stories.

Lets really turn towards the feelings, please describe fully and see if they are 'just' feelings arising and passing or a WannaB is feeling them?

When there is direct experience there are just feelings arising and passing. Pain, discomfort, disgust. There is no WannaB feeling them. When there is no direct experience, feelings spark off thoughts and stories where there is an assumption of a WannaB or me feeling.

Same here, where in the body is this going on? describe the DE (like the sultana)..What is body in DE?

Body: throbbing, weight, movement, expanding and contracting as air comes in and goes out, experience of hardness and softness.

So we have a whole arising and passing away of thoughts, feelings and sensations, really look at this display in DE...any I in this in DE?

No I to be found in direct experience. No reactivity in direct experience. When there is direct experience there is no reactivity. There is reactivity when there is no direct experience.

Thank you!