Seeking a Guide

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
jessica07
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:52 pm
Location: Gwangju, South Korea

Seeking a Guide

Postby jessica07 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:37 am

Hello,

My name is Jessica. I have read the first two conversations in "Gateless Gatecrashers", thought deeply about the questions and have begun to feel some positive changes in my life. It is still very difficult to see through the illusion of self. I appreciate the work that you do and am seeking a guide to help me through this process.

Thank you!

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:48 am

Hi Jessica

My name is Sarah and I would be happy to guide you.

Can you tell me how you came to be here? Have you looked around the site? Do you now what we do here?

Can you tell me what you expect from this process, what you think the gate is and what you expect you will be like after?

Look forward to working with you. Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
jessica07
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:52 pm
Location: Gwangju, South Korea

Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby jessica07 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:02 am

Hi Sarah,

Thank you for your willingness to guide me. I have read two more conversations from "Gateless Gatecrashers" since I first posted. I've also looked around the site a little bit.

What brought me here was a search for the truth. I've spent years searching for some kind of "truth" to make sense of this world in religion, philosophy, thinking, self-help books, etc. I feel that I have begun to see through the illusion of self, but I'm still holding onto this particular identity of this particular "Jessica"

The liberation unleashed site was introduced to me through a colleague who is currently involved in a dialogue. After reading and spending time on the first 4 dialogues of "Gateless Gatecrashers" I was able to dissolve the "I", if only temporarily. It was very freeing. I had originally thought that any kind of spiritual work was meant to "transcend" above this world to be in a "higher" level of spirituality. But, now it seems that freedom might involve actually being more connected with this world.

I look forward to your help with this process.

Thank you,

Jessica

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Sarah7 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:12 pm

Hi Jessica
There are a few formalities to take care of. If you haven't already, please read the Disclaimer and watch the short video on the LU home page.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

There are also a few standard ground rules before we start. Please confirm that you agree.

1. You agree to post at least once a day, time permitting. (If you can't respond fully on a given day, a few words to let me know you're still engaged would be appreciated.)

2. I will post questions, which prompt your investigation and answers. (I'm here to guide, not to teach.)

3. When you answer/report, please do so with 110% honesty.

4. And when you do answer, please answer from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time.

5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really commit to begin looking for this separate self, this "I"; look for what is the experience throughout the day as this looking happens. And if you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's fine to continue that.

About posting in this forum.

1. When clicking 'Quote' (in a post) or 'Post Reply' at the bottom of the page you get the editor where you can type an answer. You can also preview the answer before it is posted. Experiment as much as needed. Nothing gets posted unless the 'Submit' button is clicked.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

2. The forum can log you out without warning. If you're typing a post directly in the edit box here, and you get logged out before you click Submit, your words can get lost. There are two ways to avoid this. One, use the Preview button frequently. That will keep you logged in. Or two, type your responses in a separate program like Notepad first, then copy and paste them into the forum. (But that way you don't get to use the quote function and have to use BBCode to highlight quotes.)

3. Please learn to use the 'Quote' facility, it's a very useful tool.

4. Please click the 'subscribe topic' link at the very bottom of the page to ensure you get an email whenever a reply comes in.

We can get started as soon as you confirm that you've seen all the above and agree to it.
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
jessica07
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:52 pm
Location: Gwangju, South Korea

Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby jessica07 » Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:42 am

Hi Sarah,

Yes, I have seen all of the things you listed and agree to it. I am able to post once a day during the weekdays but I often go to the countryside during the weekend and don't have access to a computer. I will let you know before I go away for the weekend.

I look forward to getting started. -Jessica

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:04 am

Hi Jessica

We use Direct Experience here – it is what is noticed, here and now:
- Thought.
- Sensations – seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling (tactile and kinaesthetic).
- An unmistakable sense of aliveness (presence, being, Me-ness).
Please use this to answer questions.

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ me' that you hold 'yourself' to be? Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?

There is absolutely no "you" in any way, shape, or form. No "you" thinking your thoughts. No "you" living your life. There never has been a "you" nor will there ever be. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?

You are what you are looking for. You ‘are’ what you seek. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now? What makes the "I" so permanent in our eyes?
Sarah xx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
jessica07
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:52 pm
Location: Gwangju, South Korea

Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby jessica07 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:45 am

Hi Sarah,

In response to your questions:

"Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?"

What I feel is the sensation of my fingers on the keyboard. The weight of my bottom in the chair. Thoughts arise and then disappear. It seems that there is no "Jessica" to decide which thoughts to think and which sensations to feel. Sensations are heightened. I hear the flow of traffic outside the window, the tapping of the keyboard keys, the light scent of instant noodles lingering in the air. Thoughts arise that make me believe that other things exist beyond the present moment but I can not find those things.

"There is absolutely no "you" in any way, shape, or form. No "you" thinking your thoughts. No "you" living your life. There never has been a "you" nor will there ever be. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?"

Right now I feel confusion, like there must be a “me” attached to this physical body. I feel a tightness inside and an anxiety. I experience fear that the physical body will fall away and I will no longer experience the world as "Jessica". I want to hold onto the self. Love the self. Protect the self. If there is no "me" living my life then I wonder who it is that is living this life. One thing that is for sure is that thoughts and feelings seem to arise from nowhere.

"You are what you are looking for. You ‘are’ what you seek. Take those statements deep inside. Really let them sink in. What physical sensations do you notice? What thoughts do you notice? What feelings do you notice?"

It is all still very confusing. I wonder how I can be what I seek? The sensation I notice is a sensation of feeling very tired. Tired of thinking and trying to see no self, when all I see is self, self, and more self.

"In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now? What makes the "I" so permanent in our eyes?"

What is permanent right now? The desk, the chairs, the books, the phone, and other objects in my office feel more permanent than the thoughts, sensations, and feelings that arise. I believe that what makes the "I" so permanent in our eyes is the physical body. It can move from place to place and have various experiences. Without this physical body, I wonder if the sense of "I" would be so strong.

Thank you very much for your help Sarah! I feel that I still have a long way to go but I am excited about continuing this process.

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:22 pm

Hi Jessica
Some really lovely answers here – thanks for that.

Lets have a look at labelling and how we label – try this exercise:

Id like you to just sit for 10 minutes with a paper and pen and I want you to record everything you notice from your ‘I’ list. I want you too look at what experiences come up, what actions you notice, what labels you see and WHERE they are applied, what feelings and emotions come up, and what sensations arise.

Don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - I am lying in bed, I am hearing the rain, I am writing this list, I can feel a sensation of relaxing etc….

Id like you then to repeat the exercise doing exactly the same as you did above, but this time I don’t want you to use the word ‘I’ or ‘me’ when you write the list of what you notice. Again don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - waiting for the next thought, writing, breathing, listening, relaxing sensation etc…
What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises? Which feels truer?

Can you look without labelling?
Much Love Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
jessica07
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:52 pm
Location: Gwangju, South Korea

Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby jessica07 » Thu May 01, 2014 8:44 am

Hi Sarah,

That was a very interesting exercise. I really enjoyed it. I wrote the lists on a piece of paper, but I will type them here as I wrote them.

Here is the first list which includes "I":

I am writing a list. I am hunched over. I feel a little tense inside. I am looking at my cursive writing. I am noticing how beautiful it is. I am closing my eyes. I am hearing the sound of construction work outside. I am lifting my legs up onto the chair. I am shifting my position to get more comfortable. I am sitting cross-legged in the chair. I am resting my head on my arm. I am looking at the paper. I am feeling the slight heat of the day. I notice a tension in my chest. I am pausing to think. I am lifting up my head. I am looking at the paper. I am looking at my hand. I am looking at the clock. I feel anxious. I start thinking, "What if I run out of things to write. I need to write for 10 minutes straight. Can I do it?" I am listening to a car honking its horn outside, I feel it buzz through my head triggering irritation. I notice the tightness in my chest and stomach. It's still there. I am turning over the paper. I notice a tightness in my throat, chest, and stomach. I am pausing. I am taking a sip of coffee. I am feeling the tension in my hand.

Here is the second list, without the word "I" or "me":

breathing, chest moving in and out. Taking a sip of coffee. It's sweet and smooth. Feeling the pen moving over the paper, it flows easily. Closing eyes, breathing, feeling lighter, holding out "I". "I" want to come in and analyse, pushing it away gently. Looking at cursive handwriting, feeling flow of ink on the paper, closing eyes and breathing, scratching nose, feeling weight of bottom in the chair, looking at the clock. Running fingers through hair, writing invisible words over paper before actually writing. This action feels enjoyable. Hearing students talking outside, hearing the flow of traffic outside, hearing air enter and exit the nose, hearing kids running and talking outside, scratching nose with pen, looking at objects on desk-paints, scissors, and pen. Taking a sip of coffee. It's sweet and smooth. Feeling relaxed and satisfied. Looking at clock.


It was more relaxing to do the second list. The "I" thought in the first list seemed to cause tension. However, when doing the second list, "I" seemed to want to rush in at any moment. Although I can not yet see that I am not a separate self, I am beginning to feel it. Thanks once again for this exercise and your help.

Love,

Jessica

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Sarah7 » Thu May 01, 2014 3:59 pm

Hi Jessica
Again - lovely looking.
The "I" thought in the first list seemed to cause tension. However, when doing the second list, "I" seemed to want to rush in at any moment.

Can you tell me what this ‘I’ is? Was it a thought?

OK - lets delve into labelling a bit more.

Can you look without labelling?

You may know this, the mind is a labelling machine and it always labels – but can you see where and when it labels - before, during or after?

Have you ever noticed sometimes that you arrive at a destination and don't really recall actually making the journey? It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It is only afterwards that the mind grabs hold of the experience and states 'I was driving the car' or, if questioned whilst driving (a present continuous activity), it would say 'I am driving the car'.

Whether your mind is totally concentrating on each gear shift that 'I' make, each look in the rear view mirror that 'I' makes, each twist of the steering wheel . . . or the entire journey is done automatically, the same result is achieved. Similarly when doing household tasks. Whether mind is involved or not, the task still gets accomplished.

Now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership?

If you say ‘my money’ and compare it to ‘money’, ‘my relationship’ compared to ‘relationship’ or ‘my time’ compared to ‘time’ – does if feel different? Does one feel heavier than the other?
Much Love Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
jessica07
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:52 pm
Location: Gwangju, South Korea

Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby jessica07 » Fri May 02, 2014 9:00 am

Hi Sarah,
Yesterday, when I was writing the second list, the “I” that wanted to rush in were thoughts to compare writing the first list and the second list. For example, thoughts came up like, “I do feel lighter when writing the second list.” It was distracting to have these “I” thoughts coming up.

As I moved throughout my day, I focused on when “I thoughts” came up and when they didn’t. The first thing that happened this morning is that I saw a bottle of orange juice, wanted to drink it, and took a sip of orange juice all without doing any labeling in the mind. Then thoughts came up to analyze this experience.

“I” thoughts seem to come up when making a commentary about situations, or when thinking about the past or the future. For example, “I miss my mother. I can’t wait to see her in July.”

The first I-thoughts that I noticed were after I went to the bookstore to choose some new books for my students. The thoughts were, “I am proud of myself for taking the time to improve myself as a teacher”. And while driving the car, the thought appeared, “I feel good”, because the temperature outside was nice, and the wind was blowing slightly. It seems like nobody chose for these thoughts to appear but they did and they were pleasant. But these thoughts would be equally satisfying without “I”. “feel good, proud to improve as a teacher”.

However, other I-thoughts during the day were accompanied by negative judgment. For example, “My car is such a mess. I am such a slob. My office is a mess too and I have to clean it before my colleague visits this afternoon.” These thoughts caused tension and tightening in the body. Not only that but it was a kind of spiraling beginning with thinking about the messy car.

If I say "my money" as compared to "money", "my money" feels much heavier. But I wonder why this is.

Thanks once again for your help Sarah. It is much appreciated.
Love,
Jessica

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Sarah7 » Fri May 02, 2014 5:07 pm

Hi Jessica
It was distracting to have these “I” thoughts coming up.
OK – lets look at what was distracted – how did you identify distraction – was that a thought again?
It seems like nobody chose for these thoughts to appear but they did and they were pleasant.
WELL seen! Now look also for when thoughts are negative – are they equally non chosen and simply appear?
However, other I-thoughts during the day were accompanied by negative judgment. For example, “My car is such a mess. I am such a slob. My office is a mess too and I have to clean it before my colleague visits this afternoon.” These thoughts caused tension and tightening in the body. Not only that but it was a kind of spiraling beginning with thinking about the messy car.

OK – look closely here – what is feeling tension? Is that another label? Look right at that tension – how was it labelled tension! If you didn’t compare to ‘past’ tension would you know it for that????? That story following – is that made up of thoughts? Look carefully. Did anyone chose those thoughts? Did they simply appear? What is caring here if they are there? Look carefully for that ‘you’ that cares. Where is that ‘you’?
If I say "my money" as compared to "money", "my money" feels much heavier. But I wonder why this is.
Is it the label ‘my’? Is it the story that’s been created around ‘my’? Have a look.
Much Love Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
jessica07
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:52 pm
Location: Gwangju, South Korea

Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby jessica07 » Sat May 03, 2014 12:45 pm

Hi Sarah,

I am learning how to use the quote function so I hope I get it right!
OK – lets look at what was distracted – how did you identify distraction – was that a thought again?
Yes, distraction seemed to be another thought. I was trying to focus on the task of writing the lists but the mind wanted to wander elsewhere.
Now look also for when thoughts are negative – are they equally non chosen and simply appear?

It seems that the negative thoughts are also equally non-chosen and simply appear. It seems that every thought is non-chosen. Although negative thoughts seems to have a kind of spiraling effect. It is very useful to be aware of what the mind is doing.
OK – look closely here – what is feeling tension? Is that another label? Look right at that tension – how was it labelled tension! If you didn’t compare to ‘past’ tension would you know it for that????? That story following – is that made up of thoughts? Look carefully. Did anyone chose those thoughts? Did they simply appear? What is caring here if they are there? Look carefully for that ‘you’ that cares. Where is that ‘you’?
The body is feeling tension, a tightening in the chest, stomach, and throat. Tension also seems to be another label. It seems that I wouldn't know that it was "tension" if it wasn't compared to past tension. I don't know where the "I" that cares is but I often feel cared for as "Jessica". I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea that I don't exist, I never existed, and I never will exist as "me". It is sometimes unsettling to think about this and it is sometimes okay.
Is it the label ‘my’? Is it the story that’s been created around ‘my’? Have a look.
When I think of "my" money, there is a story attached to "my". The story goes something like "I worked hard for this money. It hasn't been easy but I've managed to scrape together some savings. I have to use my money wisely." Amazing how this story comes up every time I say "my money". It seems almost embedded in the word "my".

I feel like I'm very much still in the illusion of "self". Actually I can not yet see that it an illusion, but I'm starting to see differently due to your help. I look forward to your next questions. As always, thank you for everything.

Love,

Jessica

User avatar
Sarah7
Posts: 3474
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:17 pm
Location: England

Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Sarah7 » Sat May 03, 2014 9:26 pm

Hi Jessica
The body is feeling tension, a tightening in the chest, stomach, and throat. Tension also seems to be another label. It seems that I wouldn't know that it was "tension" if it wasn't compared to past tension.
We put labels on sensations and the labels are sometimes believed to be real AS sensations. However, is the label water actually water? Can you drink it?
When you say I am seeing – can that label seeing actually see? Or are labels simply a description. Are they thoughts? And as such are they real? Do they have power? The label I have tension – does it make it so – or is it just a thought?
When I think of "my" money, there is a story attached to "my". The story goes something like "I worked hard for this money. It hasn't been easy but I've managed to scrape together some savings. I have to use my money wisely." Amazing how this story comes up every time I say "my money". It seems almost embedded in the word "my".
Do you own your body? Do you own right leg? Ask this question and look with eyes open and eyes closed.
Do you own your mind? How do you know?
Do you own your story about working hard for your money?
Or is all ownership a story about owning?

When you close your eyes and sit for a bit, in your experience, is there an owner? What is here now that owns this moment?

In a conventional way, yes, you bought the computer and its yours, in practical way, everyday experience way you can say that. But what about direct experience? Which sense tells that there is an owner? Does thinking that there is an owner proves the owner to exist as an independent entity?
I feel like I'm very much still in the illusion of "self". Actually I can not yet see that it an illusion
If you write a name on a piece of paper, will the piece of paper be that name?
If you get a pet and give it a name, will the pet be that name? Or will it just be a pet you named in that way?
Was the pet breathing and eating and drinking before you gave it that name? And how about you.
If you had another name, would you still be breathing and eating and drinking?
If you had no name at all, would breathing, eating, and drinking still be happening?
Breathing, eating, and drinking are happening to no one. They are just happening.
There is nothing and nobody behind the experiencing.
Where is the sense of the "I" being felt right this instant? Where is it's location if it has one?
What are the perceptions that tell you its there?
Much Love Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

User avatar
jessica07
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:52 pm
Location: Gwangju, South Korea

Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby jessica07 » Sun May 04, 2014 12:29 pm

We put labels on sensations and the labels are sometimes believed to be real AS sensations. However, is the label water actually water? Can you drink it?
Water is actually water. I can drink it, I can wash with it!
When you say I am seeing – can that label seeing actually see? Or are labels simply a description. Are they thoughts? And as such are they real? Do they have power? The label I have tension – does it make it so – or is it just a thought?
Do you own your story about working hard for your money?
Or is all ownership a story about owning?
Maybe labels aren't real but they do seem to have power. Here's an example: I let my friend borrow my hat. She lost my hat by accident. My mind went wild with anger. How could she lose "my hat" that I bought with "my money". I just bought it yesterday!! The story about "my money" came up again, how I worked hard for the money, etc. But also a story about "my" hat came up too. The story was "This hat looks good on me. It's hard to find a hat that looks good on me, but I found one and I'm going to wear it and feel confident. It doesn't have any logos on it so it won't bother anybody. Geez that's a lot to expect from a hat!! I guess the stories about "my money" and "my hat" are both stories about ownership and seem to have a whole story embedded in the word "my".

Since I have been doing this work I started to think, "Well, it's a hat, that was bought with money." Removing the label "my" was instantly calming. It calmed the anger inside.
Do you own your body? Do you own right leg? Ask this question and look with eyes open and eyes closed.
Do you own your mind? How do you know?
I always thought I owned my mind but now I'm not so sure. "I' don't know what the next thought or emotion is going to be. This has been the most startling realization. It has been hard to come to terms with this. When I have my eyes open, I feel that I own my body. I can see it. When I close my eyes, I'm not so sure. It doesn't feel like I own my body. What am I and where am I?

When you close your eyes and sit for a bit, in your experience, is there an owner? What is here now that owns this moment?
I will spend some time on this question before going to sleep and write about this tomorrow.

Once again thanks for everything.

Love,

Jessica


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest