Looking for a guide

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amatlu
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Looking for a guide

Postby amatlu » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:31 pm

Greetings !

I feel lucky to be at this place, some turn of events got me here.
looking forward to the journey here.

Thanks

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hansjager
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby hansjager » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:42 pm

Guide here.

Tell me your story.

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amatlu
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby amatlu » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:37 pm

Thanks hansjager for being my guide.

I will keep my story short, just recently I have realized that I am trying to manage my life, but not lead my life appropriately.
Leadership is the direction, management is to do the best with what you have.

So in essence I need direction, and whatever little I have read here, totally resonates with me.

But this seems to me like I have to learn to ride a bicycle, which can't be taught, I have to do myself, I know I have to pedal, hold the handle, maintain balance, but I have to do it and experience it to internalise this, I will fall few times, and eventually be able to balance without any thoughts or fears.

Hope I was clear and to the point !

Thanks

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ElPortal
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby ElPortal » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:34 am

HI there amatlu,

... and welcome to LU!

hansjager has stopped guiding for now, but I will work with you if you like. I have read with interest what you have written so far.

Please first could you read and agree to the following:

1. Post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!" If you can't for some reason, just let me know.
2. I am not your teacher; all I can do is point. You look, until clear seeing happens.
3. Look deeply and honestly, then respond with 100% honesty. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Respond from immediate personal experience only (felt senses and observed thoughts). Avoid long-winded analytical and philosophical and stream-of-consciousness answers which may even hinder progress.
5. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; this is invaluable in referring to things that have been written in previous posts. See these instructions:- viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too - http://www.liberationunleashed.com Please take a look at that.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above, agree to them, and would still like me to be your guide - then we'll begin.

Also it would be handy to know which time zone you are in. I am in France: Central European Time (= GMT+1).

Lastly, it would be nice to know how you would like to be called. I am Mark.

Looking forward to hearing from you,

:-)

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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amatlu
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby amatlu » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:14 pm

Hello Mark,

Thanks for taking up this role.

I have gone though points 1-6, and I agree to all of them, and will like to be guided further

My time zone is GMT + 5:30, I will usually be posting around GMT 17:00
I will like to be called amatlu

I look forward to this journey, and being guided by you.

Thanks

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ElPortal
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby ElPortal » Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:29 am

Hi Amatlu

That's great. So let's get started. Just be totally open and honest, not just factually and mentally, but emotionally too. Ok?

(Often I will use numbers or letters for each of the main questions. This is just for clarity. Please address each one.)

1. When you write:
I have realized that I am trying to manage my life, but not lead my life appropriately.
Leadership is the direction, management is to do the best with what you have.
Can you please say some more about this and be as specific as possible.
And can you give examples of how you are trying to manage your life.

2. When you write:
But this seems to me like I have to learn to ride a bicycle, which can't be taught, I have to do myself, I know I have to pedal, hold the handle, maintain balance, but I have to do it and experience it to internalise this, I will fall few times, and eventually be able to balance without any thoughts or fears.

Again, can you explain as fully as possible what you mean by this with specifics.
And can you say how you know that you are not already the bicycle being ridden perfectly well by life.

3. Now please consider carefully and tell me as fully as you can: what is it that you are looking for here? How can I best help you?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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amatlu
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby amatlu » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:42 pm

Hello Mark

My answers to your queries.
That's great. So let's get started. Just be totally open and honest, not just factually and mentally, but emotionally too. Ok?
Yeah, I will be writing honestly and out of my immediate experience at mental and emotional levels.

1.
Can you please say some more about this and be as specific as possible.
And can you give examples of how you are trying to manage your life.
For the first part of your question, more specifics - life to me at the time of writing that post is - unconscious -> thoughts -> habits -> act -> work. Anything to the right of habits we are managing things, because we are governed by habits, or skills, which we have build up, and we are trying to make the best use of them. Anything to the left of habits, we are leading, as we giving our selves new directions, things we can change at the core levels.
May be we can't change unconscious as it just manifests itself as its supposed to be. So our leadership starts with thoughts and perhaps ends there as well.
This is in the realms of being more productive to society, maybe something unrelated here, as this place perhaps starts and stops with the unconscious which is manifesting itself right now. Additionally, this is my theory, could be wrong. Also not all acts are performed out of habits and thoughts, many are done out of self awareness, but when we lack self awareness, we fall back to our habits.

As per examples of how I am managing - I had to finish some work today in 8 hours, management included creating plan for that work, splitting it in sub-goals, allocating time for each sub-goal, so you can extrapolate that to each aspect of life which I believe I manage, not the sensory experience part, of course those are spontaneous, not requiring any planning.

2.
Again, can you explain as fully as possible what you mean by this with specifics.
And can you say how you know that you are not already the bicycle being ridden perfectly well by life.
What I mean by this - I think there are 2 types of skills, one you read, and memorize, or deduce and rationalize, and you can use further applications on them, like maths. This skill requires your intellect to be used to perform it every time.
The second skills is where you experience, and internalize, and then your body performs it every time without the use of intellect, like riding a cycle. I read few threads on this forum, and I related the skill being gained here to the second type of skill.

Wrt second part of your question - That is possible, I haven't looked at it that way though.
When I tried to experience this I felt that it requires some letting go, giving up control, which I have unknowingly habituated to.
If the bicycle is being ridden perfectly by life, I just need to let go off the hand brake (or the control perhaps due to fear or taking responsibility), which I am unknowingly holding on to. I feel control (or expectations or responsibility), to be hindrance to self awareness.

3.
Now please consider carefully and tell me as fully as you can: what is it that you are looking for here? How can I best help you?

I am looking to remove the illusion, and see the truth of no self.

P.S 1. I responded bit late than my stated time of GMT 17:00, because I realized I needed time to experience this. From future I will be replying daily before GMT 23:00, which is when your day ends, but usually earlier then that. If in case I require more time, I will state that in my post.
P.S 2. I hope I was succinct, pertinent yet covered all aspects. I will initially require feedback so I can adapt accordingly if required .

Thanks and Regards
amatlu

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ElPortal
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby ElPortal » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:29 am

Hi Amatlu,

That's great. Thanks for all that detail. Before we look further at the 'leading' and 'managing' aspects you write about, please consider the following:
I am looking to remove the illusion, and see the truth of no self.
A. Please consider really, really carefully and honestly, and try to discover what it is about 'the illusion', if anything, that needs to be removed? What is wrong with the illusion?
Then, (this may seem like a silly question, but it is not), who or what is it that is looking to remove 'the illusion'?
And finally what is meant when you write 'no self' and 'the truth of no self'?
As you respond, please consider - and try to differentiate between - any received concepts or teachings received on the one hand, and just the raw desire on the other. Answer honestly and as fully as possible. There are no wrong answers.
When I tried to experience this I felt that it requires some letting go, giving up control, which I have unknowingly habituated to.
B. Imagine you are a little boy sitting by your Dad in the car and he is driving, but you have a little toy steering wheel stuck to the dash board and you are playing at driving the car by your Dad's side. And then your Dad says, "Sorry son, in reality it has always really been me steering the car, not you". Now, how do you, the little boy, feel? In reality is there any letting go of the toy steering wheel to be done? In reality is there any letting go, giving up of control that needs to happen?

So now, in Amatlu's life, tell me, does Amatlu have any control of Life? If so, how do you know this? If so, how is this felt in practical ways? Let's look into this: how do you know that you need to learn to ride Life's bike? Or to look at it the other way round, is there any way of knowing that Life is riding you? Is there more of a feeling of you living life, or being lived BY life? Please answer from your own honest, experience, not anyone's theory. Again, there is no wrong answer.

With all questions, take time. Don't jump in with the first thing your mind comes to, but rather let the response come which feels real. I think you are already doing this. Look forward to hearing from you.

Cheers

Mark

PS 1. don't worry about what time to respond: if I don't pick it up in the evening, I will get it the following morning. The main thing is to keep some response, once you have had time to consider properly, each day.
PS 2. Yes, all pertinent, thanks. So far so good. I will let you know if I would like more or less. It's good to spend some time considering first, then respond. I often recommend using a notebook for the 'considering' part.
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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amatlu
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby amatlu » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:01 am

Hi Mark

My answers to your queries.

A]
try to differentiate between - any received concepts or teachings received on the one hand, and just the raw desire on the other.
what it is about 'the illusion', if anything, that needs to be removed? What is wrong with the illusion?
Well, I picked up that sentence from the first 2 lines here - liberationunleashed.com, so as to phrase it properly.

My explanation and understanding is:


Received concept - Life has given us tools to experience life, through our own selves, but we some times get lost in the illusion, and mistake these tools to be a separate entity in itself, not a tool to experience. Some thing true and simple viewed as infinitely deep and complex, venturing too far down is the illusion.

My desire - What's wrong and why it should be removed - if you are not aware about the illusion, you might chase things that actually don't exist, or you might consider your self incomplete (as you consider the illusion outside of you to be additional things you must have since others have it too) while actually you are complete. In essence by removing illusion you will lower or get your expectations level to what it should be, may be down to 0, and hence there is no need to control, hence you can experience life fully, not partially due to the illusion.
who or what is it that is looking to remove 'the illusion'?
Received concept - We in ourselves are just a tool to experience life, and we have no control, or the control is an illusion in itself, so there is no one to remove. Also if the very purpose is to experience life, there is no need to control.

My desire - Perhaps life is using me as a tool to remove it, but living in illusion, is not beneficial intellectually, emotionally, or even for the purpose of experiencing life. If you are trying to see things with glasses which don't suit your eye, that will blur your vision, and you wouldn't be able to appreciate the beauty of nature, similarly if you are experiencing life through yourself, your experience will be blurred, resulting in partial or incomplete experience and hence not the complete rich and vibrant experience that life promises.
what is meant when you write 'no self' and 'the truth of no self'?
Received concept - As we have eyes to see things, we in ourselves are just a tool to experience life. We are part of a very well defined system, not some one who controls or creates this system.

My desire - I have experienced at some points in life, that things are carried out in such perfect ways that we couldn't have ever planned or carried out ourselves. So there is a larger plan of life through which it carries us, and makes us experience things. So in essence we have very little control over the long haul. Just that in immediate moment I seem to have a control of whether I want to hold the pen lying on table or not. Though that control may be just a tool to experience things, and let my body do certain things, so that life can carry out its plans through me.
So in essence there might be no self of mine. I thing I need to do certain things for a living, and those might well have been motivations created by life, so that I take actions, and experience other things.
When you are not not aware of the illusion, it feels as though there is a need to control - like to earn for a living,
but in a bigger picture, there is no need to control, life gets its stuff done through us anyway and we might not be completely aware of it.

B]
In reality is there any letting go of the toy steering wheel to be done? In reality is there any letting go, giving up of control that needs to happen?
if I can live in illusion, and there is a need to remove this illusion, then perhaps there is a need to remove control as well. Once the illusion is removed or a no self is revealed, then there might not be need to remove control as that might automatically happen. Though both the cases of living life in illusion and with control, and without illusion and no control might have been created by life, to experience life in both ways, almost similar to how life makes us experience thirst so that we can appreciate water. So as long as I believed I was steering the wheel, I felt a need to control, now that I know I don't have the steering wheel, there is no need to control. I am just wasting my energy, trying to control the uncontrollable.
does Amatlu have any control of Life? If so, how do you know this? If so, how is this felt in practical ways? Let's look into this: how do you know that you need to learn to ride Life's bike? Or to look at it the other way round, is there any way of knowing that Life is riding you? Is there more of a feeling of you living life, or being lived BY life?
Now that all this control is just an illusion, I don't need to control. But I instinctively at times, try to push on the accelerator (car example), if I feel life is going too slow, or not giving me enough, or pull up the handbrake if I think life is going too fast, and we are going to hit some one. In either cases those times when I reacted instinctively, I end up missing the moment to see what life had to give or make me feel at that moment. Perhaps life wants me to go through these ebbs and flows to remove the fears, and just enjoy the ride.
Over a long haul you get to realize life is riding you, Only life can plan such experiences and not you.
Initially while going through those experiences, because of the illusion of steering wheel, and due to fears I took upon myself, and hence felt a need to learn driving. As the illusion is getting removed, as I can feel life riding though me, I can just go with the flow. Though if life rides through me through my habits, that's not a great place to be, because some habits can be bad as well, also you might be missing moments out of the wind-shield appreciating nature's beauty, while being buys in some habits like thoughts, and if its doing through self awareness, I will be more content as you have a richer experience of life that way, you are aware of what is going on each passing moment.
What it feels right now, kinda both, life living through me through my habits and self awareness, but me instinctively reacting at times pushing accelerator, pulling handbrakes, knowing it might not make a difference but hoping it does, as I just need to convince myself I am doing my best. Maybe I need to get rid of that conditioning which happens due to practical lives.

Thanks and Regards
Amatlu

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ElPortal
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby ElPortal » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:36 am

Hi Amatlu

Thanks for that. This time it's too long and complicated, can't understand. Please put all this detail in your notebook first if you like. Then take out the conceptual and teaching parts, take out all the generalised 'we'.
Can you now just answer the questions again, more simply, summarised, to the point. Answer with: what feels real to YOU.

This will help us to stay clear.

Thank you,

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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amatlu
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby amatlu » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:07 pm

Hi Mark

Sorry about that, I reread your instructions to differentiate between - any received concepts or teachings received on the one hand, and just the raw desire on the other, and I think it meant to do so while experiencing and posting. I took it literally and differentiated that in the post itself.

I have edited the generic, and the we part, and tried to cut down on the text.

My answers to your queries.

A]
What it is about 'the illusion', if anything, that needs to be removed? What is wrong with the illusion?
I feel Illusion to be either blurry vision, or some thing like a mirage, it apears to be true but it isn't. If I see a mirage down the road, and believe it to be true, and I am inside the car of my life, it will make me live a semi true version of life, and hence it needs to removed. I also get the image of a rabbit hole, or a trap when I read the word illusion and seeing it clearly, will lower my expectations, and remove my illusive need to control, both resulting in a better or a fuller experience of life.

who or what is it that is looking to remove 'the illusion'?
I feel life is using me as a tool to remove it. Living a life in illusion, is not beneficial intellectually,
emotionally, or even for the purpose of experiencing life. Perhaps my mind-body system has with experience realized that there is something wrong with life's vision here, and there is an instinctive (just like it reacts to other external stimuli) need to correct this.
what is meant when you write 'no self' and 'the truth of no self'?
I have experienced at some points in life, that things are carried out in such perfect ways that I couldn't have ever planned or carried out myself. So there is a larger plan of life through which its carrying me, and making me experiencing things. So in essence I have no control over the long haul. Just that in immediate moment I seem to have a control of whether I want to hold the pen lying on table or not. Though that control may be just a tool to experience things, and let my body do certain things, so that life can carry out its plans through me.


B]
In reality is there any letting go of the toy steering wheel to be done? In reality is there any letting go, giving up of control that needs to happen?
if I can live in illusion, and there is a need to remove this illusion, then perhaps there is a need to remove control as
well, which is an illusion but sometimes I believe it to be true. Once the illusion is removed or a no self is revealed, then there will not be any need to remove control as that might automatically happen. Though both the cases of living life in illusion and with control, and without illusion and no control might have been created by life, to experience life in both ways, almost similar to how life makes me experience thirst so that I can appreciate water.
does Amatlu have any control of Life? If so, how do you know this? If so, how is this felt in practical ways?
Now that all this control is just an illusion, I don't need to control. But I instinctively at times, try to push on the
accelerator (car example), if I feel life is going too slow, or not giving me enough, or pull up the handbrake if I think
life is going too fast, and I am going to hit some one.Perhaps life wants me to go through these ebbs and flows to remove the fears, and just enjoy the ride.
Let's look into this: how do you know that you need to learn to ride Life's bike? Or to look at it the other way round, is there any way of knowing that Life is riding you? Is there more of a feeling of you living life, or being lived BY life?
I have no way of knowing, that is an urge of an illusive control.
Over a long haul I have realized life is riding me, Only life can plan such experiences and not me.
Mostly life living me, but me instinctively reacting at times pushing accelerator, pulling handbrakes, as I just need to convince myself I am doing my best.

P.S Any illusion, or control that I feel is perhaps due to past memories or conditioning, I am starting to look at things with a beginner's mindset, and that moments, when I just let it be, I have felt there is no control whatsoever.

Thanks and Regards
Amatlu

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ElPortal
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby ElPortal » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:00 pm

Hi Amatlu,

Thanks again for that. Still there is much generalised and conceptual talk. I am much more interested in what is going on 'with Amatlu' right now. I am much less interested in phrases from LU, other people's threads, concepts, generalisations etc etc.

1. So please could you answer the question again: What is it that you are looking for here? .. but this time from your own experience, rather than quoting LU phrases. If your answer is the same, that is fine, but please search and tell me what feels true for you.

2. Then please tell me more about your journey so far, a bit about the turn of events that brought you here, and what expectations you have about 'liberation' or seeing.

3. In your last post you mentioned in the PS:
I am starting to look at things with a beginner's mindset, and that moments, when I just let it be, I have felt there is no control whatsoever.

Can you give me any examples from events in the day, eg say two in the last day, where you have any control at all? Try to describe.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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amatlu
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby amatlu » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:20 pm

Hello Mark

My answers to your queries.

1.
So please could you answer the question again: What is it that you are looking for here? .. but this time from your own experience, rather than quoting LU phrases. If your answer is the same, that is fine, but please search and tell me what feels true for you.
I have been looking for inner peace for some time, I have been told that I am not completely aligned with my natural vibration of joy and love and that I need to stop my stream of thoughts, and be in present moment. This will also lower my ego. Seeing the truth of no self, moves people from thought consciousness to present moment consciousness - will obviously help me in my goal.


2.
Then please tell me more about your journey so far, a bit about the turn of events that brought you here, and what expectations you have about 'liberation' or seeing.
To find inner peace, I have followed some spiritual courses including yoga for the same. I have been following yoga practices for 1+ yrs on and off now. I have also been researching online at both psychological and spiritual levels, and at 1 of these forums I met 1 guy, who gave me link to this forum. He told me this place has been quite helpful to him. As stated above I am in search of present moment consciousness.

3.
In your last post you mentioned in the PS:
I am starting to look at things with a beginner's mindset, and that moments, when I just let it be, I have felt there is no control whatsoever. Can you give me any examples from events in the day, eg say two in the last day, where you have any control at all? Try to describe.
At certain moments, during yoga, I have experienced zen like states. and felt relaxation like never before.
During day time, I have tried to reach such states just by looking and observing, if only for brief moments. When I am actively aware of my feelings, and just watching thoughts go by, there is no thinking involved. I am in a state where body does enough and automatically what it needs to do. There is no need to control any thing. I feel really light and relaxed, its almost like a heavy burden has been lifted off. There is heightened state of awareness where I can listen to sounds in the background, which I normally miss.

Thanks and Regards
Amatlu

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ElPortal
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby ElPortal » Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:29 pm

Beautiful, and crystal-clear! Yes, yes, yes, write like this! Much easier to understand. Thank you.
Will respond later, when I have reflected upon what you write.

Regards

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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ElPortal
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby ElPortal » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:41 am

Hi Amatlu,

Again, thanks for expressing honestly, clearly and succinctly your desires and hopes. This is much appreciated.

However, I have to tell you honestly that the enquiry we do here is not about finding inner peace, joy and love, reducing ego, moving from thought consciousness to present moment consciousness, zen-like states, heightened awareness, or reaching any kind of states. For these kind of practices you will need to look elsewhere.

What happens here is about looking into whether there is any self here to experience all those things.
This enquiry is for those who cannot settle for anything less than Life as IT IS, for better or for worse: the truth and nothing but the truth.

Please let me know how you react and whether you like to continue.

Warm wishes

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.


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