Almost there ... Feel like guiding?

[alfi]

Hi there, thank you for your consideration on guiding me.

I've been studying for a while non-duality, doing self-enquiry and this is what I learnt so far:
- we are not anything we can be aware of (neti, neti)
- there is no self, the self is just a thought about the self
- all there is is awareness, the knowing. Not the knowing of something but just knowing
- we cannot know awareness in the conventional sense: subject - object relationship. We know awareness by being.
- anything we can observe and the awareness of it is the same thing.
- awareness knows "itself". It does not need any objects to be aware.

Then, how it come that I'm here looking for guidance?
I recognize every one of the previous statements as being true. However, it seems that this understanding is intellectual. I still have the sense of lack. Something is missing. And this triggers the seeking. I know that there is nothing to find. Still, seeking happens. I have a strong desire to really know what I am and what life is about in an experiential way.

My expectations:
- Find what am I (experientially)
- Know what's real (experientially)
- Sense of fulfillment, happiness (no more lack)
- Understand how other people fit. See how this understanding includes my relationship with family, friends, coworkers, etc.

Would you like to volunteer to help me?
Thank you!

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Alfi

Then, how it come that I'm here looking for guidance?

It is because everything that has ever happened to the organism called Alfi, and everything that was involved in those happenings, and everything that was involved in the involvement of those happenings, have seen the conditions required, align, and "bingo" ! Here 'you' are. But this is a story (albeit a good one) as it can't be known. Just as there is an abundance of 'can't be known'. i use a label i call The Great Mystery to describe a huge bag from which everything emerges. None of which can be known.
Can you think of anything that can be known that is not current experiencing ?
Now do an experiment. LISTEN. Ideally, pick a sound that has some longevity. As you listen, ignore thoughts ABOUT it, and Really absorb in the sound.
Is there anything other than LISTENING ?
Ignoring thoughts, is there, in experiencing, anybody doing the listening ?
Is there anything being listened to ?
In experiencing, is the sound separate from Alfi ?
..or are you and the sound (and indeed the whole world) just the LISTENING ?


love

vince

[alfi]

Thank you for being my guide!
I use alfi as alias but you can call me Jose

Can you think of anything that can be known that is not current experiencing ?

No, only the current experience can be known. When it feels that it is not the current experience that is known is because we currently experience a thought.

Is there anything other than LISTENING ?

No, the sound and listening is the same thing. The sound is like the shape the listening takes.

Ignoring thoughts, is there, in experiencing, anybody doing the listening ?

No, listening is happening by itself. I have no way to stop listening. In other words, no effort is involved in listening.

Is there anything being listened to ?

This is a tricky one. I can simultaneously say:
a) I listen to running water or the refrigerator's noise
b) I listen listening

In experiencing, is the sound separate from Alfi ?
..or are you and the sound (and indeed the whole world) just the LISTENING ?

You ask if the sound is separate from Jose ... It is difficult to answer because I don't really know what I am.

Cheers
Jose

[vinceschubert]

'morning Jose.

When it feels that it is not the current experience that is known is because we currently experience a thought.

Perhaps a little more subtle than that. It is because there is an expressing of the content of the thought.
If you are aware of the fact that there is a thought and that the thought has a particular content (story) then it is impossible to 'act out' the story in an automatic way.
Now this brings us to the last bit of your reply. When i asked you if you were separate from the sound, i specified "in experiencing", but you answered with a mental conclusion.
In the same way that if you are 'living' the content of a thought then you ARE that, if you are absorbed in the act of listening, then you ARE the process of listening.
Please do that exercise again. Put on some music. Ideally some Bach or other classical piece. Sit and listen and observe what thought does, then start to ignore thought altogether and allow the music to fill Jose. Then after a while, allow sufficient thought to later describe (as best possible) what this experiencing is. Including the question; Can a Self, or an I, be found anywhere doing the listening. ..or is there only listening ?

a) I listen to running water or the refrigerator's noise

Does it take thought to apply the labels of "running water" and "refrigerator's noise" ?
Can you now (on reflection) notice subtle value judgements in those labels ?
For example; you said "noise" not "sound". Is there a judgement that this has some annoyance quality ? Whereas "running water" might have a quality that sooths....

b) I listen listening

Hmm, i don't 'get' what you are saying here. Say more...

It is difficult to answer because I don't really know what I am.

Ok, who or what doesn't know ?
Is it possible that what Jose is, is totally a thought story ?

love

vince

[alfi]

Sit and listen and observe what thought does

I listened to Bach. Thought start saying: would this be an appropriate piece, is the quality good enough (from youtube), is it too much volume or too little ... then I realized that this was totally pointless.

then start to ignore thought altogether and allow the music to fill Jose.

So, I tried to ignore the thoughts. This did not work for me so I remember something that I read sometime ago: I change your suggestions of ignoring thought by the suggestion of experiencing before the rise of thought. Thoughts only happen after experience, so if I manage to experience before thoughts start, it is the same thing. This turned out to be easier for me. It is difficult to describe what I sensed. I felt a sense on un-location where the music was played from no-where but beautifully there. I was wearing earphones but, somehow, I did not have the impression that music was coming from my ears. Then I was interrupted by family matters. During a short period, there was no self (not even location), just the music.

I've tried to repeat this experiment again later on but it worked differently. It is easy for me not to have thoughts (e.g. mental talk) but as I was listening to Bach I was simultaneously feeling my body, breath, etc. So the experience was: "here is me listening to Bach".

Can you now (on reflection) notice subtle value judgements in those labels ?
For example; you said "noise" not "sound". Is there a judgement that this has some annoyance quality ? Whereas "running water" might have a quality that sooths....

Absolutely, there was judgement there. I like better running water than refrigerator's noise. Both are sounds with some longevity. Anything wrong with preferences?

b) I listen listening

Hmm, i don't 'get' what you are saying here. Say more...

I meant that at the same time of listening to the sound I am aware that I'm listening. They are no two different things because the sound is like the shape of the listening. It is just a broader point of view irrespective of which particular sound is heart.

Ok, who or what doesn't know ?
Is it possible that what Jose is, is totally a thought story ?

This is the whole point! I'm convinced that this is the case. I just need your help to see it for myself.

Thank you for your guidance
Jose

[vinceschubert]

I felt a sense on un-location where the music was played from no-where but beautifully there.

Excellent. Would you say that there was only LISTENING ?

but as I was listening to Bach I was simultaneously feeling my body, breath, etc.

So this time attention was divided. There was listening and thinking (about bodily sensations) and a deduction that it must be "me" ?

Absolutely, there was judgement there. I like better running water than refrigerator's noise. Both are sounds with some longevity.

How subtle is the value judgements inherent in labels ?

Anything wrong with preferences?

Yes and No. Well, by yes i don't mean that there is anything wrong with the existence of preferences. They exist. They are conditioned into the organism. But are there preferences that are part of the story of Jose ? Is there a distinction between the preferences of the organism with the label Jose and the preferences that express themselves through the thoughts that start with; "I always ..." or "I like...", or "I don't like..." ?

This is the whole point! I'm convinced that this is the case. I just need your help to see it for myself.

Oh, are you saying that it is only intellectual and that you want an experience to make it 'true' ?
Does it resonate for you ?

Do this exercise;
Lift your left hand.



Now consider, was there a 'you' that decided to lift it ? ..or did it just happen ?
Was the decision or choice to do it, made by a Self ?

love

vince

[alfi]

Hi Vince

Excellent. Would you say that there was only LISTENING ?

Yes, only listening. Or even better, only music but not quite ... the listening and the music were the same thing.

So this time attention was divided. There was listening and thinking (about bodily sensations) and a deduction that it must be "me" ?

You are right. But there was no thinking about bodily sensation, it was more feeling the body. But you are totally right about the deduction that these sensation must be "me".

Regarding the preferences discussion, now I see your point and totally agree that these preferences are part of the story of Jose.

Oh, are you saying that it is only intellectual and that you want an experience to make it 'true' ?
Does it resonate for you ?

No, it is not only intellectual. I've loved the Bach experiment. I've experienced that experience can happen without experiencer. I'm not looking for a particular experience. I know that no experience can make it 'true'. The trick is on the experiencing, not on the experience.

I've done the left-hand lifting exercise ... going only by direct experience a paradox happens:
- I'm convinced that I decided to lift my left hand. I know this because I choose whether I lift it or not, how I lift it and when I lift it.
- however, when I go looking for this I that decides to lift the left hand ... I cannot find it. I've done self-inquiry also in the past with similar results.
So this for me feels weird (like a paradox): in my experience there is an I doing things and taking decisions but it cannot be found.

Kind Regards
Jose

[vinceschubert]

Morning Jose.

the listening and the music were the same thing.

Ok, we are getting outside of the ability of language to communicate effectively here. The implication seems to be that when you say that there was music, that it was somehow separate, but when you say listening it is a process ?

The trick is on the experiencing, not on the experience.

Beautiful.

I know this because I choose whether I lift it or not, how I lift it and when I lift it.

Are you deducing this afterwards, or are you experiencing a mental process before the lifting happens ? Do it again - lift your left hand.

in my experience there is an I doing things and taking decisions

When you decide to go to another room, is there a decision to get up from the chair and put one foot in front of the other and to start with the right foot or left foot ? ..or does it happen automatically ? ..or does the intelligence of the organism suffice ?

Conditioning of the organism is a pretty amazing thing. It knows how to do an incredible number of things without the use of thinking. A useful thing it does is to 'own' a perspective. To explain this more, have a look at these two videos. The rubber hand one, shows it pretty clearly. The 'Secret You' shows it when the researcher causes an out of body experience using the virtual reality goggles. Take note also at the experiment where he discovers that decisions are made in the organism some six seconds before the mind is aware of them.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l5l95ekxxmaog ... lusion.mp4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E

love

vince

[alfi]

Ok, we are getting outside of the ability of language to communicate effectively here. The implication seems to be that when you say that there was music, that it was somehow separate, but when you say listening it is a process ?

There was nothing separate. This is why I loved this experiment. The music, the listening was the same thing. It is like if we talk about a yellow light. The yellow and the light are not two different things. It was like the listening was the light and the music the yellow ... sort to speak.

Are you deducing this afterwards, or are you experiencing a mental process before the lifting happens ? Do it again - lift your left hand.

I can do also before and during. Before I decide if raise the hand or not. Even if I'm going to do quickly or slowly. During ... I can change how long it is up, the way I lift it, etc.

When you decide to go to another room, is there a decision to get up from the chair and put one foot in front of the other and to start with the right foot or left foot ? ..or does it happen automatically ? ..or does the intelligence of the organism suffice ?

No, it happens automatically. Is like walking, riding a bike, etc. I put the intention and it happens automatically. It is like talking: I don't need to worry about which muscles to move in my mouth. It just happens automatically. Still, I can decide what to talk about.

Fully agree with you about conditioning. The rubber hand video is ... scary!
I'll watch the 'Secret You' video tomorrow. It is getting late over here (in Germany).

cheers
Jose

[alfi]

The 'Secret You' shows it when the researcher causes an out of body experience using the virtual reality goggles.

It looks like the brain has a process that runs in a loop activating several areas of the brain (this loop is interrupted during anesthesia or sleep) and makes sense of everything with the inputs it has. It looks like the brain finds the most probable situation given the inputs it receives. This includes the sense of location (e.g. out-of-body and even rubber hand). So the sense of location is made up by the brain in real time!

Take note also at the experiment where he discovers that decisions are made in the organism some six seconds before the mind is aware of them.

This is amazing. But we perceive that we are doing the choices. I guess that this would be the same in the left-hand lifting experiment in my case. It was already decided the "if", "how" and "when" lifting the hand before actually doing it. This means that the choice is a thought that happens after the decision has been already taken. What I do not understand yet is how the brain, in this 6-seconds before, decides what to do.

cheers
Jose

[vinceschubert]

'morning Jose.

It looks like the brain has a process that...

Yes, and the implication is that the organism with the label Jose, simply knows how to do what it has learned as a result of conditions that it has been exposed to. Does this resonate for you ?

So the sense of location is made up by the brain in real time!

Exactly, and this sense of location leads to the perception (illusion) that there is a 'me' in the body somewhere. Does this sound right ?

This means that the choice is a thought that happens after the decision has been already taken.

Yes, and the mind entering the picture is to maintain a sense of control. Why might this be so ?

how the brain, ... decides what to do.

This is the organ that learns how to do an infinite number of things. You only have to be put in a new situation for it to start this process. Simply expose it to circumstances and it will learn. Right ?
So the upshot of this is that the Sense of Self, is exactly that. A SENSE. An impression. Albeit a very useful thing. After all, how would we navigate daily existence without it ?

love

vince

[alfi]

Good Evening Vince,

the implication is that the organism with the label Jose, simply knows how to do what it has learned as a result of conditions that it has been exposed to. Does this resonate for you ?

Yes

this sense of location leads to the perception (illusion) that there is a 'me' in the body somewhere. Does this sound right ?

Yes, this is the paradox I highlighted in my previous message: there is a 'me' somewhere but it cannot be found. Still, it seems to be here.

the mind entering the picture is to maintain a sense of control. Why might this be so ?

Let's hypothesize ... as soon as the mind does not enter the picture ... it would be discovered that it is not in control. But why would the mind care about it? What is the benefit of ignoring how it works behind the scenes?

This is the organ that learns how to do an infinite number of things. You only have to be put in a new situation for it to start this process. Simply expose it to circumstances and it will learn. Right ?

Yes, it adapts to the environment. However, this does not answer my question on why does the brain decides to lift the left hand.

So the upshot of this is that the Sense of Self, is exactly that. A SENSE. An impression. Albeit a very useful thing. After all, how would we navigate daily existence without it ?

Is the liberation to realize that the Sense of Self is just a SENSE? What the implications of this?

thank you!
Jose

[vinceschubert]

there is a 'me' somewhere but it cannot be found. Still, it seems to be here.

Yes, and the emphasis in on the "seems". The rubber hand illusion shows how it is created. Just as the subject feels that the rubber hand belongs to them, so do you feel that there is a self in there somewhere. Illusion or Delusion ?

But why would the mind care about it?

Cultural conditioning. The mind itself doesn't care. But let's examine this a little further... The word mind is an abstract noun (look it up if you need to) It isn't a thing. It might be likened to a bus terminal or a train station for thoughts. It is thoughts that constantly reinforce the idea that we are in control and that we are worth something. This has been conditioned into you by the way language is structured and the way you have been taught to think. Can you see this ?

why does the brain decides to lift the left hand.

Conditions. The context of what we are doing here. The request from the letters on the screen to do it. The ability of the organism to comply. etc.

to realize that the Sense of Self is just a SENSE? What the implications of this?

You tell me ?

love

vince

[alfi]

Thank you Vince for your quick reply.

Yes, and the emphasis in on the "seems".

I've also noticed that this sense of 'me' changes. Some times it is a thought, other is a bodily sensation, a feeling... It looks like that it does not matter that much what it is provided that there is something to say that this is 'me'. While doing meditation in the past, the task was to be aware of something. Then I realized that I was manufacturing the sensation of "I" so that it could be aware of the object of awareness.
I think the main issue to address is the need to have an I. I've seen that the 'me' is a self reinforcing thought / sensation / feeling. However the need for I is still here. Can we address this?

It is thoughts that constantly reinforce the idea that we are in control and that we are worth something. This has been conditioned into you by the way language is structured and the way you have been taught to think. Can you see this ?

I see the reinforcement of the idea that we are in control and are worth something. I also see that this is enforced by the way language is structured. Language is structured to fit subject - object relations. I'm not native English speaker, I'm from Spain but in Spanish it is just the same. I also see that this is the way we are taught to think.

to realize that the Sense of Self is just a SENSE? What the implications of this?

You tell me ?

I don't know for certain. My guess is that all this energy going to maintain a Sense of Self is not needed anymore and, therefore, everything is more peaceful. Not having a sense of self would also mean that there is no body that lacks anything and therefore the 'there is something missing but I don't know what it is' sensation does not appear.

cheers
Jose

[vinceschubert]

Thank you Vince for your quick reply.

If i use the utility of a Self for communication/navigation purposes, i will say "You're welcome."
If i am speaking to another awakened one, i might remind them that "i didn't do anything. It was that conditions aligned, and that is how the quick reply occurred"

However the need for I is still here. Can we address this?

We might call the story of Jose, your ego, but once it is not believed to be an actual entity, it becomes like a raincoat. Something that is useful in certain circumstances.
Because this Sense of Self is a conditioned response, it can take some time for the brain to re-wire. Have a look at this video on that; https://www.dropbox.com/s/mskv8uxmnmf2f ... _Being.mp4

Language is structured to fit subject - object relations. I'm not native English speaker, I'm from Spain but in Spanish it is just the same.

Yes, i think all languages do this. i do have a story that there is one or two that don't, but they are obscure native tribes somewhere.

My guess is that all this energy going to maintain a Sense of Self is not needed anymore and, therefore, everything is more peaceful.

Absolutely, and all of that energy is available for other things.

Not having a sense of self would also mean that there is no body that lacks anything...

Yes, the story of Jose places a lot of demands on how to be and what to do. When it is SEEn that there is no choice (made by a Self) and decisions happen automatically at the organism level, there is the possibility to be attentive to what is Real instead of the mental fantasy. (as in the listening exercise. Not Jose hearing a sound, but BEing the Music)
What about the lack of a need to be 'right' ? No need to defend a position ?
..and how profound is the lack of Self consciousness ?
See if you can think of 2 other changes from this.

love

vince