Welcome Prajnamati

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Deejay
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Welcome Prajnamati

Postby Deejay » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:33 pm

Hi Prajnamati,
Welcome to LU!
When you're ready, please confirm you've read the disclaimer on the home page.
Warm wishes,
Deejay

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Prajnamati
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Re: Welcome Prajnamati

Postby Prajnamati » Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:39 am

Thanks Deejay,

I have posting rights now, and have read the disclaimer and intro pages: so ready to go

Best wishes

Prajnamati

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Deejay
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Re: Welcome Prajnamati

Postby Deejay » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:40 am

Great!
So a few guidelines; please confirm you are ok with these.

- Post at least once a day, even if just to say you are still there.
- 100% honesty
- Avoid rambling, speculation or philosophical musings and pour all your energy into really looking at and reporting on your own direct experience.

So the process is about seeing through the illusion of self. What are you hoping for, what will it be like? What are your expectations - however unreasonable, get them out in the open! Hidden expectations can really obscure the view.

Love,
Deejay

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Prajnamati
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Re: Welcome Prajnamati

Postby Prajnamati » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:53 pm

Hi Deejay,

I'm happy to undertake to post every day, and to do my best on the 100% honesty, avoiding rambling and really looking at and reporting my direct experience.
What are you hoping for, what will it be like? What are your expectations - however unreasonable
Not sure if you were looking for an answer to these, but here's what comes to mind:

Hoping for and generally expecting: that it will help me develop awareness, particularly in the aspect clarity about the nature of my experience, and that i'll gain more understanding of and common ground with friends who feel they have benefited from the LU process. I find talking the dharma with friends who's understanding i have confidence in supports my own level of inspiration and enthusiasm for practice, and hope and generally expect that to be the case here too.

Love

Prajnamati

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Deejay
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Re: Welcome Prajnamati

Postby Deejay » Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:12 pm

Hi Prajnamati,
Thanks, I did want to hear back about your expectations.

It's good to see that they exist; and then drop them as much as possible, and be as open as you can about what might arise. It can't be anticipated how it will be.

So now, what's your gut response when you read this:

There is no self whatsoever, in any shape or form. There never has been, and there never will be.

love,
Deejay

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Prajnamati
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Re: Welcome Prajnamati

Postby Prajnamati » Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:10 am

My initial gut response was a sort of sense of constriction or narrowing and a feeling of queeziness

As I read the two words 'never' I felt a sense of finality, like two blows of an axe falling

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Deejay
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Re: Welcome Prajnamati

Postby Deejay » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:21 pm

Hi Prajnamati,
Vivid descriptions of your experience, great… the process is underway! Already enjoying doing this with you.

Let's look at the senses.
When you look at what is around you in this moment, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing? Or is there just looking/seeing?
When you hear sounds around you - is there a hearer to be found? Or just hearing?
When body sensations are felt - is there a feeler?
An 'I' tasting or smelling?

Give time to each sense in turn, and tell me what you find. (It's good to actually answer each individual question)

Love,
Deejay

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Prajnamati
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Re: Welcome Prajnamati

Postby Prajnamati » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:01 pm

Just been looking at 'looking' first (will 'look at' listening next)

When I look at things I don't see anything that I regard as my self: even the parts of my body that come into view: arms and legs seem more object like. I identify more with the imperfections of vision as part of me: floaters & the blur of shortsightedness.

Sometimes I find I can relax the 'looking at' in to a visual field of perception that is just there. This feels quite impersonal, there's less of a sense of a 'point if view' - a place from which I'm looking.

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Deejay
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Re: Welcome Prajnamati

Postby Deejay » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:06 am

Hi Prajnamati,
Ok, let's investigate further what's emerged from 'looking at looking'! We can come back to the other senses.
I identify more with the imperfections of vision as part of me: floaters & the blur of shortsightedness.
What/where in direct experience is the 'me' that the floaters and blur are part of?
Sometimes I find I can relax the 'looking at' in to a visual field of perception that is just there. This feels quite impersonal, there's less of a sense of a 'point if view' - a place from which I'm looking.
So look again, without trying to relax the 'looking at' in this way. In this moment, exactly what is this 'point of view'? What and where is this 'place from which I'm looking'?
Through which sense or senses is it experienced?

Love,
Deejay

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Prajnamati
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Re: Welcome Prajnamati

Postby Prajnamati » Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:33 pm

Hi Deejay,

I find those questions difficult to answer - I found i was delaying replying but decided to just do my best.

I don't see anything in the direct visual experience of blurring or of floaters that is a I can call a direct experience of 'me'

I feel there's something there associated with the experience, or in the way i relate to it - that i see things as something: i see the computer screen in front of me as an object, and the blur as my shortsightedness. Something in the mind rather than in the visual experience itself.

The 'point of view' and the 'place from which i'm looking' are about an inch behind the mid point between my eyes. This isn't something i'm seeing. I guess i'm inferring it from the perspective of what i'm seeing - the sense of distance that comes from how i focus and how the images in each eye combine. I see the screen as about one and a half feet away from this 'place from which i'm looking'

Love

Prajnamati

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Deejay
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Re: Welcome Prajnamati

Postby Deejay » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:32 pm

Hi Prajnamati,
I find those questions difficult to answer - I found i was delaying replying but decided to just do my best.
Yes, great, just do your best, share wherever you've got to. Your answers are fab - clear and precise.
I don't see anything in the direct visual experience of blurring or of floaters that is a I can call a direct experience of 'me'
Great.
I feel there's something there associated with the experience, or in the way i relate to it - that i see things as something: i see the computer screen in front of me as an object, and the blur as my shortsightedness. Something in the mind rather than in the visual experience itself.
Yes, yes, yes - an interpretation/recognition/labelling of the blur as 'your shortsightedness'.
The 'point of view' and the 'place from which i'm looking' are about an inch behind the mid point between my eyes. This isn't something i'm seeing. I guess i'm inferring it
Look again. What is exactly is going on? Is there actually any 'place from where looking is happening' or 'point of view' findable in direct experience? If so - which sense or senses are involved?

Just a reminder about direct experience. By 'direct experience' is meant seeing, hearing, taste, smell, and the various aspects of body sensation - tactile and kinesthetic, eg pressure, heat, pain, touch, movement, location in space. Also we can include as direct experience the process, but not the content, of mental activity: the content being memory, dreams, and thoughts - including abstract, visual, kinesthetic, tactile, olefactory, and taste thoughts!

Looking forward to your reply,
love,
Deejay

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Prajnamati
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Re: Welcome Prajnamati

Postby Prajnamati » Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:02 am

Hi Deejay,

So I'm reflecting on this in terms of a sense of visual distance - which is distance from 'the place from which looking is happening'.

Visually, I see a widely separated double image of things nearby and a less separated double image of things far away. What I'm focusing on I see a single image of.

In terms of body sensation, there's a certain muscle tension between my eyes and the bridge of my nose when I focus close up, and an absence of that, which has a quality of relaxation, when I focus on the distance.

There's also a sort of kinaesthetic sense of location, which enables me to touch the bridge of my nose with my eyes closed.

That's all I can find statically: in one moment of sensation. I'm inferring a lot from movement: things close up go by quicker. Shapes change in a familiar way as I look at them from different angles, things look bigger as they get closer.

Thanks for your encouragement

Love

Prajnamati

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Deejay
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Re: Welcome Prajnamati

Postby Deejay » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:44 pm

Hi Prajnamati,

Let it be more simple - not reflecting - but rather taking an actual fresh look at the current experience. Without inferring anything. Inference = interpretation, mind content, not direct experience.

Just look now afresh.
In this moment, can you actually find 'a place from which looking is happening?'
Where is that?
Yes, what is seen is changing in relation to body location etc. But is there really a findable place that looking is coming from?

Don't worry if you feel stuck with this q, it's not crucial, just one of many possible ways in. It'll be fine to move on and do another question.

Love,
Deejay

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Deejay
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Re: Welcome Prajnamati

Postby Deejay » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:49 pm

And... it's very useful that you notice that what you are doing is inferring, interpreting your experience... Keep noticing that, it's key! x dj

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Prajnamati
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Re: Welcome Prajnamati

Postby Prajnamati » Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:42 pm

Hi Deejay,

I take your point that I am inferring visual distance. I was exploring what it was in visual and tactile experience that I'm inferring it from: the double image, the tension in my eye muscles and the kinesthetic sense of location.

None of these is a direct experience of 'a place from which looking is happening'.

I've been noticing too that the double image that I'm seeing doesn't really fit with a single place.

So, trying to take a fresh look at my experience, I get these 3 things: a double image; a sense of tension or ache around my eyes, and this sense of location that enables me to touch my nose with my eyes closed: I can't easily find a direct sensation that that's based on. No direct experience of 'a place'

wishing you well

Prajnamati


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