Looking for a Guide!

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Certainlytrue
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Looking for a Guide!

Postby Certainlytrue » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:20 pm

Hello,

My Name is Kelly and I was wondering if anyone could guide me through this process. A little bit of a background since that seems what we are supposed to do in this section... As a child I had many times when the identification fell away and this was experienced as a boundlessness of the body, no boundaries on the body anymore. There was a sense that this was something that humans do... or a thought that this was a part of getting older. It was clear then, what the truth was and who I was. The last time this happened I was about 13 or 14. I began to believe afterwards that I was crazy and never told anyone about this, partly because I knew everyone would have to see for themselves and I could never explain this to anyone. But also, the thoughts that I was crazy soon overcame me and there was a "forgetting" or trying to deny what had been seen. Since that time I have lived my life trying to forget if that makes any sense lol. Over the years it seems that I have developed very maladaptive conditioning such as addictions etc... It wasn't until I read an Eckhart Tolle book, that I fully remembered again what I had known, and felt relief that finally this is being talked about! I have done a few meditation practices, and vipassana seems to be the one that I keep coming back to. I have within the last year started listening to non duality and this resonates deeply. Sometimes I feel confused and it seems like I could never say that I am enlightened or not enlightened. I am truly questioning everything. Could anyone help me through this? Thanks in advance!

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for a Guide!

Postby Freddi » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:19 pm

Hi Kelly, Welcome to LU!

My name is Fred, and it would be a pleasure to guide you.

First we have to get a few ground rules out of the way ...

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and investigation.
3. Answer from personal, direct experience only, not from 'spiritually correct' material or what you think is the right answer.
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
5. Read the FAQ page to get an idea of what we do here -http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_FAQ.html

Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

If you are happy to agree to the above, let me know and we can begin.

Warm wishes,

Fred

PS It would be good to know where you are, so I know when roughly to expect a post from you. I am in France.
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Certainlytrue
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Re: Looking for a Guide!

Postby Certainlytrue » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:27 pm

Fred,

thank you, I have read and agree to all of the ground rules. I am in the United States, In Michigan. This is Eastern time Zone.

Thanks,
Kelly

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Re: Looking for a Guide!

Postby Freddi » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:36 pm

Thanks Kelly, let's get this show on the road!

Could you let me know what expectations, if any, you have about this exchange, our investigation, liberation?
Will it change you? How will it feel?

When you say:
It was clear then, what the truth was and who I was
Can you be a bit more specific? What are you? What is the truth?

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Looking for a Guide!

Postby Certainlytrue » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:54 pm

Could you let me know what expectations, if any, you have about this exchange, our investigation, liberation?
Will it change you? How will it feel?

I am not completely sure what expectations I have. On one level I can't deny that there is an expectation or desire to feel the boundlessness again or a relaxation in the body, and then there is also a nagging feeling that this won't sastify. I can't explain it but just a feeling that I don't know whats wanted or that anything that there is nothing that could sastify. This may sound silly, but i also can't deny that there is also a deep fear that liberation won't change me. There is at times a deep feeling of shame about the conditioning of the body and the urge to want to fix something comes up often. I understand that this process is not about that and in a way am grateful for that.


It was clear then, what the truth was and who I was

Can you be a bit more specific? What are you? What is the truth?

Maybe it wasn't so clear what I was, but it was clear what I wasn't, that I wasn't this body or this person. It was clear that the whole thing was one big play. There was a thought that came that said, "I can't wait until everyone finds out that nothing really matters!" It was seen in a way that nothing mattered, that everything I thought was true about life was one big joke. The truth if I had to put it into words is that nothing matters, and as I say this i feel a heaviness in the chest, and I also feel some embarrassment at discussing this.

Also am I supposed to be using the copy/ paste differently than I am?

Thanks
Kelly

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Re: Looking for a Guide!

Postby Freddi » Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:48 pm

Hi Kelly

Thanks for your beautifully honest responses, they are really appreciated.
This may sound silly, but i also can't deny that there is also a deep fear that liberation won't change me.
Can we invite this feeling of fear to the table? Don't push it away, or ignore it. Let it be right here. Welcome it like a long lost relative at the door. Let it speak to you and see what it wants to tell you. See what comes up and let me know.

What is behind this fear? Is it protecting something? Would it be OK if liberation did not change anything at all?
Sit quiet and stay with this for a while, let it work its way through, and let me know what comes up. We are looking at what is happening right now, in your most immediate and intimate experience.

Warm wishes

Fred

PS - You can read the post called ‘How to use the quote function’ on top of the 'Guiding Area' (this forum).
Also, at the bottom of our thread, there is a ‘subscribe topic’ button, which you can press to receive emails when I post.
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Looking for a Guide!

Postby Certainlytrue » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:30 pm

Hello Fred,

I am sorry to say that the quote function seems to be eluding me. Sometimes technology does not register well here LOL. I am just going to copy and paste if this is alright with you.

So after reading your response i went to sit with the fear for a minute:

What is behind this fear? Is it protecting something? Would it be OK if liberation did not change anything at all?

As I sat with it, it became clear that the fear was just covering up a deep sense of shame. Shame that comes from NOT trying to make yourself into a better person. Shame from thinking that there is a person who could choose to make themselves better, and they aren't!

The experience went like this:
Feelings of fear, swelling of the heart and a sense of rawness full on feelings of shame. Crying for maybe 5 minutes... cat meowing for food, getting up to feed the cat. Then moving on to do something else. Thoughts about, "maybe I haven't felt this emotion fully, Maybe I should try to feel it more" But thoughts that seemed to be falling into space.

As i awoke this morning more and more thoughts falling into space. Thoughts like, "I'm liberated" "Im not liberated" all falling into space. And then deep feelings of anxiety like there is no place to hide. But anxiety flowering in space. More and more thoughts and sensations falling into space. It seems clear that it all just keeps falling into space. Even those words right there aren't even true. It seems like no words can be true but I can't help but to say them. It would be ok if liberation didn't change anything.

Thank You,

Kelly

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Re: Looking for a Guide!

Postby Certainlytrue » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:32 pm

Hello Fred,

I am sorry to say that the quote function seems to be eluding me. Sometimes technology does not register well here LOL. I am just going to copy and paste if this is alright with you.

So after reading your response i went to sit with the fear for a minute:
What is behind this fear? Is it protecting something? Would it be OK if liberation did not change anything at all?


As I sat with it, it became clear that the fear was just covering up a deep sense of shame. Shame that comes from NOT trying to make yourself into a better person. Shame from thinking that there is a person who could choose to make themselves better, and they aren't!

The experience went like this:
Feelings of fear, swelling of the heart and a sense of rawness full on feelings of shame. Crying for maybe 5 minutes... cat meowing for food, getting up to feed the cat. Then moving on to do something else. Thoughts about, "maybe I haven't felt this emotion fully, Maybe I should try to feel it more" But thoughts that seemed to be falling into space.

As i awoke this morning more and more thoughts falling into space. Thoughts like, "I'm liberated" "Im not liberated" all falling into space. And then deep feelings of anxiety like there is no place to hide. But anxiety flowering in space. More and more thoughts and sensations falling into space. It seems clear that it all just keeps falling into space. Even those words right there aren't even true. It seems like no words can be true but I can't help but to say them. It would be ok if liberation didn't change anything.

Thank You,

Kelly

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Re: Looking for a Guide!

Postby Certainlytrue » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:32 pm

tried to do the quote again... Didn't work LOL

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for a Guide!

Postby Freddi » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:18 pm

Hi Kelly
The experience went like this: Feelings of fear, swelling of the heart and a sense of rawness full on feelings of shame. Crying for maybe 5 minutes... cat meowing for food, getting up to feed the cat. Then moving on to do something else. Thoughts about, "maybe I haven't felt this emotion fully, Maybe I should try to feel it more" But thoughts that seemed to be falling into space.
That is such an honest and beautiful expression of your intimate, present experience. Thank you.
More and more thoughts and sensations falling into space. It seems clear that it all just keeps falling into space. Even those words right there aren't even true. It seems like no words can be true but I can't help but to say them. It would be ok if liberation didn't change anything.
You are seeing that thoughts pop up, uninvited, then fall into space. ‘You’ can’t control them, stop them. ‘You’ can’t help but say the words that come up. That is clarity ;-)

(1)
Thoughts like, "I'm liberated" "Im not liberated" all falling into space.
What is the difference between the thoughts ‘I’m liberated’ and ‘I’m not liberated’ when observed in this moment? When the stories and labels contained in the thoughts are dropped? What is left?

(2)
it became clear that the fear was just covering up a deep sense of shame. Shame that comes from NOT trying to make yourself into a better person. Shame from thinking that there is a person who could choose to make themselves better, and they aren't!
Do you see a difference between what is happening in your here and now experience, for example a knot in the stomach, a headache, tears, shivers, a cat purring or whatever, and what is not happening, like the story of a Kelly who could choose to make themselves better?

(3)
Thirdly, staying with your present experience, could you tell me what comes up when you read this: there is no “Kelly” at all in reality, not in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “Kelly”, nor is there now, nor will be there ever be. There is only life moving freely, without any general manager called "Kelly".

Again, take your time, stay with the questions, a quick answer will most often be a mind answer. Let whatever comes come, welcome emotions, feelings, don’t leave any stone unturned and let me know what you find.

Warm wishes,

Fred

PS - Of course it’s fine just to copy and paste
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Looking for a Guide!

Postby Certainlytrue » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:16 am

Hello Fred,

I felt like I needed some time for this to all sink in but here we go...

1. What is the difference between the thoughts ‘I’m liberated’ and ‘I’m not liberated’ when observed in this moment? When the stories and labels contained in the thoughts are dropped? What is left?

It seems that there is no difference between the thoughts, there are different sensations in the body, but thats all sometimes even the same thought with different sensations each time it comes up.

2. Do you see a difference between what is happening in your here and now experience, for example a knot in the stomach, a headache, tears, shivers, a cat purring or whatever, and what is not happening, like the story of a Kelly who could choose to make themselves better?

Yes, yes that is being seen more and more. This one kind of made me laugh when I just read it. A million times a day there is a story running in the head and then it stops and it's just the sounds, smells, sensations whatever. And it is being seen more and more that the story has nothing to do with what is happening. What is happening becomes neutral as soon as the story stops, or even if the story is not believed.

3. Thirdly, staying with your present experience, could you tell me what comes up when you read this: there is no “Kelly” at all in reality, not in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “Kelly”, nor is there now, nor will be there ever be. There is only life moving freely, without any general manager called "Kelly".

My first immediate reaction when reading this was just laughter a lot of laughter. Then a couple hours later there was crying. But now as I read what you have written once again... there are tears, a sense of relief and just a basic sense of wanting to collapse. It feels like how it did when you were little and you were feeling really bad and your mom would call you into her lap and just hold you while you cried. This moment is like a moment in my mothers lap, just a moment of surrender.

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Re: Looking for a Guide!

Postby Freddi » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:00 am

Thanks Kelly
It seems that there is no difference between the thoughts, there are different sensations in the body, but thats all sometimes even the same thought with different sensations each time it comes up.
Nice :-)
What is happening becomes neutral as soon as the story stops, or even if the story is not believed.
Is there someone or something that can choose to believe or not believe in the stories? Or does believing or not believing happen by itself?
My first immediate reaction when reading this was just laughter a lot of laughter. Then a couple hours later there was crying. But now as I read what you have written once again... there are tears, a sense of relief and just a basic sense of wanting to collapse. It feels like how it did when you were little and you were feeling really bad and your mom would call you into her lap and just hold you while you cried. This moment is like a moment in my mothers lap, just a moment of surrender.
All perfectly natural - seeing through this big cosmic joke does trigger some release, like tears and laughter, some fear too sometimes.

Out of interest, when you use the words ‘I’, ‘Kelly’ these days, what do they refer to?

Look at whatever happens to be in front of you, the computer screen, or a tree, or anything else. Where is 'you' (the observer), where is the 'looking' (the observing) and where is the 'thing looked at' (the observed)?
Can you draw lines between these three? Say you're observing the screen, can you draw a line that separates the observer and the observed? Is it the edge of the screen? Is it your skin? Is the air between ‘you’ and the screen 'observer' or 'observed'? Look at your hands, are they observer or observed? And the tip of your nose?
So where is this ‘you’, this observer? Is there an separate entity that is looking at the world from behind the eyes?

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Looking for a Guide!

Postby Certainlytrue » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:02 pm

Hello Fred,

This is all seeming to get a bit confusing now...

Is there someone or something that can choose to believe or not believe in the stories? Or does believing or not believing happen by itself?

No, no definitely not someone who could choose to believe or not. One hundred percent it just happens or it doesn't and I'm not even sure if it matters which one happens belief or disbelief, very strange.

Out of interest, when you use the words ‘I’, ‘Kelly’ these days, what do they refer to?

It refers to the experience I guess would be the best way to put it. It refers to what sensations are being felt or what is being perceived or what images are popping up in the mind.

So where is this ‘you’, this observer? Is there an separate entity that is looking at the world from behind the eyes?

These last set of questions were all very crazy! At first there was a looking at the dog, and then a touching of the dog. It became clear when I touched the dog that there was an imagination that there is a separate thing out there with an inside and that their inside is experiencing something different than this inside. But then it was seen that I don’t even know that, really all I know is touch… the sensation of touch! As I am looking at everything around me I don’t even know if there is anything out there at all… I just know seeing and hearing and sensing. It’s like it became a thing when I touched it, but then a realization that the only thing real is the actual experience or sensation. But I feel stuck in a certain way, because even though i’m not sure if there is anything out there, it still feels like there is something in here, if that makes any sense.

Thank You,
Kelly

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Re: Looking for a Guide!

Postby Freddi » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:55 pm

Hi Kelly
No, no definitely not someone who could choose to believe or not. One hundred percent it just happens or it doesn't and I'm not even sure if it matters which one happens belief or disbelief, very strange.
Believing and not believing do happen, to no one. Like rain, headache, thinking etc. The trouble starts when it is labelled as ‘good’ or ‘bad’. But even labelling happens all by itself. It’s one big crazy ride. Life doing what it does, with no one in charge, on automatic.
It refers to the experience I guess would be the best way to put it. It refers to what sensations are being felt or what is being perceived or what images are popping up in the mind.
Could we say that the ‘intersection point’, where all the senses appear to meet, this intimate, closer than close sense of aliveness is what has been labelled as ‘I’ all this time?
even though i’m not sure if there is anything out there, it still feels like there is something in here, if that makes any sense
How does this feeling manifest itself in your present experience? Can you describe it as plainly as you can, as if you were a little child who did not know what it was, before a label was applied? We will take a look at it together.

Let’s see if we can find an ‘I’ in the decision-making.

Tell me from your most immediate experience, as you are reading these words, are you breathing? Is there a Kelly that controls breathing? Is there a Kelly that is beating her heart? Or blinking her eyes?

Choose a drink, for example tea/coffee/another drink or between a couple of objects (blue pen/black pen/pencil). Then sit and see if you can find 'the self' who made that choice? If so, where exactly did that choice happen? Why was one option selected over another? Can you find a choice point (a location of choosing)? Try to describe the process of 'choosing'. Let me know what you find.

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Looking for a Guide!

Postby Certainlytrue » Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:54 am

Hello Fred,

Here we are…
Could we say that the ‘intersection point’, where all the senses appear to meet, this intimate, closer than close sense of aliveness is what has been labelled as ‘I’ all this time?
:) yes

even though i’m not sure if there is anything out there, it still feels like there is something in here, if that makes any sense
How does this feeling manifest itself in your present experience? Can you describe it as plainly as you can, as if you were a little child who did not know what it was, before a label was applied? We will take a look at it together.
It feels solid, not totally solid but solid if you go deeper, like there are layers I guess. It feels like a thing. There feels to be space around it, like it is a thing in space, but also like things can be felt inside of it. It feels like at some point there is a boundary, but i can’t figure out where it is, I'm not sure it is the skin I don’t know where it is.
Tell me from your most immediate experience, as you are reading these words, are you breathing? Is there a Kelly that controls breathing? Is there a Kelly that is beating her heart? Or blinking her eyes?
Yes all of these things are happening, there is nobody controlling them, they are all just happening.
Try to describe the process of ‘choosing'.
O.K. Three colored pencils… One is yellow one is blue and one is white here is what happened…

Scanning scanning scanning, focusing on white, thought comes up that says white, hand moves and picks the white one. I could not find a moment that a self chose, it wasn't the focusing, or the scanning or the word white or the hand moving. It was just one big stream of… something.

I also noticed this today when there was a thought that came up and said, “ I think I’ll go to yoga tonight.” Then another thought said, “Naw I don’t really want to.” And then somehow I found myself in the car driving to Yoga, I honestly have no idea how it happened!

P.S. I totally figured out the quote thing... How did I miss that!


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