Is there anybody to help me to cross the Gate?

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Mani
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:06 pm

Is there anybody to help me to cross the Gate?

Postby Mani » Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:33 pm

Dear Liberated Guys,

I strive for being with you! I read Gateless Gatecrashers lately and I think I am ready. I know there is no "i" but how to write "I am ready" with other words? How to express "I know"? Confusing for me (no "me", sorry).

Before I was practicing according to Yogani's Advanced Yoga Practices method for 2 years. And by the way, that was there, where I found Gateless Gatecrashers: I downloaded it from the list of recommended books. Before AYP I practiced kundalini yoga and meditated but not on the regular basis. Also I was reading, reading, reading all the time (Yogasutras, R.Maharshi, about buddhism, about zen and all kind of meditations). The purpose for me was clear: to reach enlightenment. To see the Truth. To know how this world looks like. And that's why I am here. The Ilona and Elena's book was the real shock for me. Is that so simple? Is it possible that millions of people for thousands of years could live in such a deep lie? When I started to think it appeared that I maybe even know the answer for the question why it could be like that for such a long time. But it's only my conjuncture.

My first language is Polish but there is no polish guide here I assume. My english is far from perfection, so please forgive me all the mistakes and lapses.

So I'll be waiting now... with the great hope and some little fears, I admit.
Manana

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Is there anybody to help me to cross the Gate?

Postby Freddi » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:55 pm

Hello Manana, Welcome to LU!

My name is Fred, and it would be a pleasure to guide you.

A few ground rules -

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, just let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from personal experience only.
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
5. Read the FAQ page to get an idea of what we do here -http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_FAQ.html

Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

If you are happy to agree to the above, let me know and we can begin.

With warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
Mani
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:06 pm

Re: Is there anybody to help me to cross the Gate?

Postby Mani » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:00 pm

Hi Fred,
thank you for joining me!
Yes, I accept all the rules and I read all these pages.

Waiting for your questions
Manana

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Is there anybody to help me to cross the Gate?

Postby Freddi » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:32 pm

Thanks Manana, that’s great!

Can we start by looking at your expectations about this exchange?
What are your expectations for this process?
Will it change you? How will this feel?

Here at LU we have just completed a list of what this investigation is not. I'll list them here and would like you to spend some time with them, in order to let me know what comes up as a response.
These expectations can only get in the way and, if seen, the possibility of just dropping them could happen.

Liberation Unleashed is not ...
Throughout the years our many guides have discovered that one of the major obstacles to the direct, clear seeing of what is already magnificently the case is a thick layer of expectations and narrative about a self’s journey towards enlightenment, built up by years and years of seeking. Getting these expectations out in the open and out of the way is an important first step. Below is a list explaining what the LU process is not:

This is not a way to escape your daily life.
This is not about gaining something extra, becoming something special.
This is not about cultivating an altered state of consciousness.
This is not a trick of the mind, or twisting the mind into believing certain thoughts.
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge.
This is not about having a certain thought or sequence of thoughts.
This is not about becoming a holy, good, moral or better person.
This is not a belief, religion, or a philosophy, it not magical or mystical.
This is not going to lead you to eternal peace and happiness, it is not about happiness.
This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.
This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.
This is not a solution to problems in relationships.
This is not a way to get free of depression or other diseases.
This is not about stopping thoughts, changing thoughts, getting rid of thoughts.
This is not a way to make the story of you disappear.
This is not about convincing you of anything.
This is not something that will lead to accumulation of money or things.
This is not a self improvement program.

Contemplate each of these one by one, Manana, let them work their way through, observe any reaction, and let me know what comes up. Maybe sensations in the body? Fears? Desires? Maybe some release? Maybe nothing for some of them?
Take your time, and be as detailed as you like. There are no right or wrong answers here.

Warm wishes,

Fred

PS By the way are you based in Poland? It would be good to know when roughly to expect a post from you, depending on time zones etc. I am in France.
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
Mani
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:06 pm

Re: Is there anybody to help me to cross the Gate?

Postby Mani » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:17 pm

Hi Fred,

yes, I live in Poland, Warsaw suburbia, so we are at the same time zone. More convenient. I saw at your post that you are from Languedoc-Roussillon, nice piece of land!

So as for the expectations I went through the list again and it came out that there are two items causing some resistance in my mind.

1. …getting a bit of knowledge.

I began to analyze: if we were always sure that our world's perception is based on this fundamental notion of self and now we came to conclusion that there is no self, no me, no I, that is called some kind of a new knowledge, isn't it? But then I realized that I already know that yet unfortunately can't see it. So this is not about knowing and understanding but about seeing. Am I right, Fred?

Ok, now, what about the second item…

2. …getting rid of self, I, me.

Only while writing this sentence it became clear for me that you can't rid of something that doesn't exist! Fascinating and unbelievable…

May I have one question, Fred? It's not about expectations, just curiosity. There is a deep connection between awakening and kundalini energy in this Yogani method I wrote about in my first email. All this method is directed to arise this energy which, as far as I can understand, starts the process of awakening: it's from tantra philosophy. There are many people apart from Yogani lessons who felt this kind of energy and that was the beginning for them (for example, Rick Archer talked to some of them during his interviews Buddha at the Gas Pump). I just wonder if there are different kinds of awakening (starting to see) because there is no traces of any moving energy here at LU, nor in buddhism, neither advaita and so on. I would appreciate if you can explain.

Thanks so much for your patience
Manana

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Is there anybody to help me to cross the Gate?

Postby Freddi » Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:41 pm

Hi Manana
This is not about gaining a particular bit of knowledge. So this is not about knowing and understanding but about seeing. Am I right, Fred?
Yes exactly, ‘understanding’, ‘acquiring knowledge’ is what our mind strives for, by labelling and interpreting our actual experience. When we drop all labels, concepts, ideas, and come to our senses, all that’s left is what is real.
This is not about getting rid of self, I, me. Only while writing this sentence it became clear for me that you can't rid of something that doesn't exist! Fascinating and unbelievable…
Why is it unbelievable? When you were a child and you learned that Santa did not exist after all, did you need to get rid of it? Or was it just seen to be an illusion, then dropped without any further thought about it?
May I have one question, Fred? It's not about expectations, just curiosity. There is a deep connection between awakening and kundalini energy in this Yogani method I wrote about in my first email. All this method is directed to arise this energy which, as far as I can understand, starts the process of awakening: it's from tantra philosophy. There are many people apart from Yogani lessons who felt this kind of energy and that was the beginning for them (for example, Rick Archer talked to some of them during his interviews Buddha at the Gas Pump). I just wonder if there are different kinds of awakening (starting to see) because there is no traces of any moving energy here at LU, nor in buddhism, neither advaita and so on. I would appreciate if you can explain.
This forum is not intended as a place to debate about the notions of enlightenment, Kundalini, Yogani, or any ‘method’. It is about getting in touch with WHAT IS, as plain and simple as truth is. And you will only see reality in your present, intimate and immediate experience, not in some concept handed down by books or Buddha at the Gas Pump. Are you prepared to drop any concept you may have heard about, any method that you have read about or followed and look at what is real, here and now?

With warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
Mani
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:06 pm

Re: Is there anybody to help me to cross the Gate?

Postby Mani » Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:58 pm

Yes, I am prepared to drop all those concepts, it's just difficult to stop analyzing, comparing, pondering because that's how our brain is built. Thoughts are being thinking so who's gonna stop them if there is no me?

Warm regards

Manana

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Is there anybody to help me to cross the Gate?

Postby Freddi » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:06 pm

Hi Manana
it's just difficult to stop analyzing, comparing, pondering because that's how our brain is built.

Aren’t you making an assumption about our ‘brain’, here? Have you ever experienced your brain? Can you feel it tingle and buzz when it is at work?
Thoughts are being thinking so who's gonna stop them if there is no me?
Thinking will not stop, that is not possible. Can you stop birds tweeting or clouds rolling in? If we do find out that there is no ‘me’, who will believe these thoughts anyway?

OK on to some exercises:
(1) Please could you start by telling me what comes up when you read that there is no “Manana” at all in reality, not in any shape or form, there never has been a “Manana”, nor is there now, nor will there ever be? There is only life moving freely, without any general manager called "Manana".

Take your time with this question, really observe what comes up and note them in a notebook, to stay focussed on what is real, away from the mind stream. I am not after concepts, but what is real, what is alive in your most immediate experience.

(2) Then, in your first post, you said:
So I'll be waiting now... with the great hope and some little fears, I admit.
Tell me more about that fear. Invite it, welcome it, listen to it and let it talk to you. Don’t try to push it away, invite it and let it stay and tell you what it wants to say. Let me know what you observe.

With warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
Mani
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:06 pm

Re: Is there anybody to help me to cross the Gate?

Postby Mani » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:29 am

Hi Fred,

thank you for your answer.

I am sorry, but I can't agree with the statement about the brain. The brain is real as the body is real. I don't have to see the brain, not to feel it tingle to know that it is placed in the head and that it's working. This is not making an assumption. This is the human knowledge which you cannot deny. So I know that thoughts are just the brain products. Please, correct me, if there are some mistakes here.
But here comes the greatest doubt for me, and please be so kind to note it: you asked me before "to drop the concepts", yes? So someone has to drop something. Who is going to do this if there is no Manana here?
And that is the answer for your next question. I'm quite ok with the idea there has never been any Manana. But this is still idea for me, I can't see it, I can't feel it, I only understand it because I read Gateless Gatecrashers and after the 21. interview I got accustomed to this concept. Yes, it's a concept for me and that's why I am here now. I really want to SEE it, not only intellectually understand.
But this is my main doubt: who is going to "drop the concepts", ok?

And as for fears. I was working with them while reading the book (Gateless…) and I am ready to answer you what's bothering me.

First of all, I have a fear that I won't make it. That there are some obstacles within my body-mind which won't allow me to see the true world, how it looks like in reality. The fear is: I'm gonna miss it. Although the desire to cross this gate is huge. Maybe it's too huge?

Second fear is connected with feelings, especially attachment to my children. I have three sons, one of them died 8 years ago. The pain is less than before when it was unbearable, but still there is a great longing. I don't want this longing to disappear, I don't want to forget my boy.
I have this awareness that this is only the fear, that nothing will change, that I will still love whom I love or, maybe not...? anyway… This fear remains.

I hope it wasn't too long, Fred. I don't like sentimentality and wouldn't like anybody to perceive this as some sentimental stuff. I just wanted to answer honestly to your questions.

Warmest regards
Manana

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Is there anybody to help me to cross the Gate?

Postby Freddi » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:57 pm

Hi Manana,

Thank you for your very honest and detailed response.
I am sorry, but I can't agree with the statement about the brain. The brain is real as the body is real. I don't have to see the brain, not to feel it tingle to know that it is placed in the head and that it's working. This is not making an assumption. This is the human knowledge which you cannot deny.
You are welcome to disagree, Manana. You did ask for a guide and I am pointing you to the place to look if you want to see that there is no self.
I am not saying that there is a brain or that there is no brain. I am open either way. I prefer to say ‘I don’t know’. All I am asking you is to be ruthless and question everything and everyone that poses as an authority, and that includes science, religion etc. That questioning will result in an open mind. If you take what brain science tells you as a fact, that is no more than a belief, because you have not experienced it directly. If you say you don’t have to see the brain to know that it does exist, then I can tell you that Santa exists, and also Batman, and unicorns, and you will believe me, right?
you asked me before "to drop the concepts", yes? So someone has to drop something. Who is going to do this if there is no Manana here?
The question I would ask you is this: ‘Is Manana needed for concepts to be dropped’? Or could there just be a “dropping of concepts”, happening all by itself? Are you breathing? Is your heart beating? Are your nails growing? And your hair? Is Manana in charge of all this?
But this is still idea for me, I can't see it, I can't feel it, I only understand it because I read Gateless Gatecrashers and after the 21. interview I got accustomed to this concept. Yes, it's a concept for me and that's why I am here now. I really want to SEE it, not only intellectually understand.
OK we will take a deep look together, and for this we will question everything, including the brain and the body, OK?

Thank you for sharing so honestly what you said about your boy, who passed on. That must have been very painful and I feel much empathy for you. What I can tell you is that the absence of self does not mean absence of love. It is not like one day there is a self, and the next day there is no self. In truth there never has been a self, and yet love for your boy was as alive then as it is now and will remain.

Before we come back to your second fear, I am going to ask you to do an exercise which will help us to look at what direct experience is, to make sure we are singing from the same hymn sheet.

I want you to go and sit quietly somewhere and note down for me everything that is happening. You can do this out, in nature, for example. Give me a ten minutes slice of life. Just what is happening, in your own words and your own time. Sounds, smells, sights, sensations, tactile sensations. If a thought comes, acknowledge it, welcome it, note it too (the thought that…), but let it pass. Take your time, really do this, because all that happening: THIS IS IT!

With warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
Mani
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:06 pm

Re: Is there anybody to help me to cross the Gate?

Postby Mani » Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:54 pm

Hi Fred,

You are right, Manana isn't in charge of breathing, heart beating, nails growing. But she is somehow in charge of acts of volition: decision to cut nails or to drop some concepts. That's like I feel it.

Anyway, I did the exercise this afternoon. I went to the garden and sat on the bench under the tree with the notebook and pen in my hands. These are my notes:

Birds tweeting, dog barking, all sounds arising groom the deep calm silence. Sun slowly floating down. Plane's distant roar. And suddenly the thought: didn't I have to question everything? Maybe I shouldn't label these sounds of tweeting, barking and roaring as birds, dogs and plane. I only hear without seeing them. These are my thoughts. Then I see my hand automatically reaching the twig lying on the grass – just a habit to keep the lawn clean. Very light breeze smoothing my face. Billing of pigeon. Oh, no, again! Just billing, I don't see any pigeon.
And moments of complete silence…
Cat on the roof. Catching the sunshine like me. Observing something, maybe hunting. That was only my thought again (about hunting cat).
My body is sitting on the bench, my hand is writing. Feeling good…
My shadow on the grass among the shadows of the trees.

Warm regards and good night
Manana

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Is there anybody to help me to cross the Gate?

Postby Freddi » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:20 am

Hi Manana,

Thank you for your ‘slice of life’. That exercise brings us closer to what is actually happening in the moment. I am glad you noticed how quickly our thinking has a tendency to take over, label, analyse, join the dots. Do this as often as you can. Even for a few seconds, drop from the mind stream into your senses, your breathing. Notice just what is happening, what is real, here and now.
Out of interest, could you read the exercise again and remove all mentions of ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘my’. So instead of “I am thinking”, “thinking”, instead of “my hands”, “hands”. How does that feel? Closer to reality or further away from it? Let me know what comes up.
But she is somehow in charge of acts of volition: decision to cut nails or to drop some concepts. That's like I feel it.
Free will is a big part of the illusion that we tend to hang on to. Let’s take another look at this act of volition of cutting your nails. Look deeply into this question. Would you say that Manana had complete, total control over this event, (in other words you cut your nails out of the blue), or would you rather say that there were elements in the environment (maybe a thought, maybe memories, past conditioning), that acted as triggers for this action. Maybe the nails were seen to be very long, maybe a nail was broken? Look carefully. Take your time. A quick answer will most probably be a mind answer.

Then I would like you to find two actions you did recently, over which you really feel that you had complete control over, write them down, then look carefully if there were elements in the environment, events leading up to these, maybe someone said something, maybe you saw something on TV? Don’t leave any stone unturned.
Take your time with these. Have a good look.

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
Mani
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:06 pm

Re: Is there anybody to help me to cross the Gate?

Postby Mani » Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:27 pm

Hi Fred,

I read the exercise again according to your pointing. I think I start to notice what's going on: these are all reactions on some impulses from the environment. So, there came the understanding that no "me" is needed to move the hand or to write or to think, whatever the body is doing. Yes, it's closer to reality without "I" and "my"… Definitely.

Then I took my time (language will have to start changing when this deep shift of consciousness overtakes the societies, don't you think, Fred?) and I began to think about two actions/decisions which I felt they were totally controlled by me.
In the morning I had to convince my son to go to the doctor for the prescription which is necessary to buy drugs for his allergy. Although he is not a little boy any more (20 years old student) he doesn't care about his health and hates doctors and medicines. And what about me? As he'd been really badly allergic since early childhood (pneumonias all over the time caused by even slightest cold) I am used to react immediately when he catches the cold. Now it's obvious it was only my past conditioning, my reaction towards his illness.

The second decision is more complex. It was so called "life decision" made two years ago. I quitted my job and it took me three months to ponder, to analyze, to think it over before the decision came. I was an editor-in-chief of quite a big woman magazine, so this work was prestigious, well-paid and so on. But I had to cooperate with some people from the management whom I didn't respect, I was busy all the time, I was fed up with some rules in media life, the press decline all over the world became so apparent for me that I couldn't make any sense out of my work. Moreover I had to have more time for my meditations and all this spiritual searching, you know. But of course, I could stay. It was safe for me to be there. Yet I made this decision.
So lot of factors for and against. Yet something is pulling you to the one side. Combination of thoughts and sensations and memories? This combination causes the response? Something like that, isn't it?

Oh God, it took me more than one hour to write it down… My homework is done! Isn't it boring for you, Fred?!

Thank you for your patience
Manana

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Is there anybody to help me to cross the Gate?

Postby Freddi » Thu Apr 03, 2014 4:07 pm

Hi Manana,

Thanks for your detailed response. Keep this dedication and honesty going. It is far from boring ;-)
I think I start to notice what's going on: these are all reactions on some impulses from the environment. So, there came the understanding that no "me" is needed to move the hand or to write or to think, whatever the body is doing. Yes, it's closer to reality without "I" and "my"… Definitely.
Lovely, thanks for this clarity. ;-)

So if I understand you well, the apparent decision to send your boy to the doctor was in reality prompted by some conditioning, habitual thinking, some fear related to your own experience of allergies, maybe a reaction to his reluctance etc. All factors that, together, brought about this apparent decision. No Manana needed here, then? Is it possible that all that ‘happening’ was just life doing what it does, albeit through an apparent Manana and boy?

And with regard to the decision to quit your job, it is a while back so we only have memories to deal with, here. That is not specifically direct experience anymore. But you mention a number of factors, like a feeling of disrespect for certain ‘people’, the pull towards more meditation, more spiritual investigation, etc. You say ‘something is pulling you to one side’, and that is a key element in your intense look. What, if not Manana, is ultimately pulling to one side or another? Would it be life flowing this way rather than that way? Again life life-ing?

I recommend you do this at the end of each day, think about one apparent decision over which you feel you really had free will. Then look at the environment, the triggers, the thoughts, the sensations, the habits, the conditioning, etc. See if you can find any trace of free will. I would be very interested if you did.

Three exercises to try and find this ‘I’ that is supposedly in control:

(1) Let’s look at the body and see if there is an owner or entity controlling it. Lift one of your hands. Either one. Move it to the right. Now move it to the left. Look with your eyes at what is happening. Did a “self” move the hand? Or did the hand just move?

(2) Get up and walk some steps slowly. Notice, who got up and walked the few steps. Is there a controller who controls the walking? Or is there just the walking? Consider this deeply. Let me know what comes up.

(3) Choose a drink, for example tea/coffee/another drink or between a couple of objects (blue pen/black pen/pencil). Then sit and see if you can find 'the self' who made that choice? If so, where exactly did that choice happen? Can you find a choicepoint (a location of choosing)? Try to describe the process of 'choosing'. Let me know what you find.

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
Mani
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:06 pm

Re: Is there anybody to help me to cross the Gate?

Postby Mani » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:52 am

Hi Fred,

I tried all those exercises but before presenting you my findings I'd like to ask you a question about memories. You wrote that my decision dealing with quitting the job belongs to memories and this is not specifically direct experience. But convincing my son to go to the doctor was also in the past, I mean before I read your post, just it was more fresh – like two hours ago not two years ago. Is there any difference?
It will be the difference now, when I'll be noting choice making currently as it's happening…

So regarding the exercises: I was sawing firewood in the garden and I was watching my hands and all the body movements. They are habitual. Yes, I don't have to control them, the movements ware happening by themselves. It became quite obvious when I began to think about something else and nevertheless the body was doing the same job unconsciously. Without "me" dealing with all those movements. When the bag was filled with wood I "decided" to go back home. Yes, it was choosing to go home without choosing in fact. But then I stopped deliberately, just to relax on the bench and to look closer to this exercise on "decisions making". One big question remains: there is a difference between doing things mindlessly, as a matter of course and doing things consciously. Of course if you ask me where is this consciousness from I will not answer you. Because I don't know. I hope I will know when I start to SEE. Oh, yes, that was a mistake, wasn't it? No expectations, right, Fred? Ok, no expectations, even those regarding this big secret – consciousness.

Warm regards
Manana


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests