Asking for guidence

[Same]

Hi.
I´m new here. I would love your guidence. I´ve been involved in different practices for some years, like yoga, meditation and tantra. I read a lot and watch a lot of youtube videos on for example advaita vedanta, dzogchen, tantra or other buddhist teachings, balanced view et.c. It seems like I´ve had glimses of this what you are talking about. Like sometimes through practices or contemplation I get the feeling "Who is thinking this?" "Who is speaking this?" or when I look at my body sometimes it feels like I don´t own the body, or that no one is inside there. That´s in glimses. And then again I get triggered by something and get lost in my mind, caught up in the stories. I would love to get some clarity in this. And if it leads to some kind of liberation, I´m ready to explore that, whatever that looks like.
Thanks for this web site. How great it is to get personal guidence! Great service!
I´m male. 30 years old. scandinavian.
Greetings
Sam

[Alexw]

Hi Sam,
My name is Alex and I am happy to guide you, if you like.
Kind regards,
Alex

[Same]

Thank you! Yes please. Let´s get started.
Sam

[Alexw]

Hi Sam,

Great! Welcome to LU.

There are a few formalities that I would like to go through first to make sure that we are in agreement prior to getting started.

If you have not yet, please read the disclaimer at the LU website: http://www.liberationunleashed.com
Once you have read that, please confirm.

Next, here are a few guidelines that I would like you to read before we begin.

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Please confirm that you have read and agree to these guidelines.

Ok, so much about formalities. You mention that you have been contemplating questions like "Who is thinking this?" "Who is speaking this?" and you say that sometimes "it feels like I don´t own the body" - that something takes your attention away and you "get lost in your mind, caught up in the stories"...

What are these stories that you get lost in? Are they any more than thought? The "I/self" is obviously an important part in these stories - how does the "I" materialise in these stories? Is it a special entity that you can experience or is it just another thought? What do you think is mind? Can you experience "mind"?

Regards,
Alex

[Same]

I have read the guidelines and disclamer, and I agree to follow it.
Writing every day is good!

So lets start, you asked me some questions.

What are these stories that you get lost in?

Well, sometimes feel I have a glimse om seing or feeling beyond the separate self. It feels great, like I´m more connected to everything and everyone around me. Then I loose this feeling, sometimes it just slowly fades away. Sometimes I just get triggered by the stories in the mind. These stories can be anything of the mind chatter going on. For example in relation to other people, that I have to behave in some special way (cultural codes) to be accepted. And suddanly without even noticing it I´m lost in those kind of stories, trying to behave according to some ideas of cultural codes et.c.

Are they any more than thought?

No, just thougts. What has a more drive is the intense emotions and physical sensations connected to the thoughts. But emotions could also be regarded as thoughts, so, no, not more than thoughts. But still the thoughts has effect on my behaviour. I want to be free from this.

The "I/self" is obviously an important part in these stories - how does the "I" materialise in these stories? Is it a special entity that you can experience or is it just another thought?

Yes, the "I/self" is the central figure in these stories. Doing everything it can to prove it´s own existence. Creating lots of stories around itself, in fear of being proved non existing. The sense of "I" is so strong from many years of believing it. As I´m writing now I´m also writing from a sense of "I". But when I look for it, I don´t know what it is or where it is. Just a suttle sense of me. Oh now I´m getting confused. "I" am looking for "I". "I" writing about it. Is the "I" really just a thought? It´s hard to grasp it. Not in my experience yet...

What do you think is mind? Can you experience "mind"?

Mind, I think everything I experience is experienced through the mind. All the activities in the brain. Yes I feel I can experience the mind. For example I can experience the thinking mind, as thoughts.

Sam

[Alexw]

I have a glimpse on seeing or feeling beyond the separate self

What if there is no separate self at all? Never was and never will be? What if this seeing beyond the separate self is just direct experiencing without being interrupted by an “I” thought? How does this make you feel?

But still the thoughts has effect on my behaviour. I want to be free from this.

What would happen if you were free from thought driven behaviour? Could you still function in this world? It is fine to have thoughts and all sorts of emotions – don’t work against them, just see them, accept them and let them go. How does identifying with a thought work? A thought shows up – it is recognized… How do you identify with it? Is there an entity that identifies with thought or is there just another thought showing up claiming ownership?

As I´m writing now I´m also writing from a sense of "I"

Is there an “I” writing or is there just writing? Is there an “I” making decisions or doing anything?
Try this: On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm. Notice the exact point when the arm goes up. Did you know what arm would be chosen before it went up? Was there a chooser, an “I”, or was the choice just made?

I think everything I experience is experienced through the mind

Close your eyes for a few minutes and just listen. Is there an entity “I” that is experiencing sound through another entity “mind” or is there just experiencing sound?

For example I can experience the thinking mind, as thoughts

Ok, so if you experience the “thinking mind as thoughts”, what else is there besides just thoughts that make it the mind?

[Same]

What if there is no separate self at all? Never was and never will be? What if this seeing beyond the separate self is just direct experiencing without being interrupted by an “I” thought? How does this make you feel?

This makes something relax in me. If there really is no self, there is nothing to do really, everything just happens by itself. My body and mind just happens by itself. So whats the purpose and function of having the "I/self" sense I wonder. And why do we want to drop it?

What would happen if you were free from thought driven behaviour? Could you still function in this world?

I have no idea. Interesting point. Yes I believe the thaugts are there somehow for a reason. To make the human organism functioning in the world. But impossible to figure out the meaning of it all.

How does identifying with a thought work? A thought shows up – it is recognized… How do you identify with it? Is there an entity that identifies with thought or is there just another thought showing up claiming ownership?

Yes, the "self" identifies with the thougts as having real meanings, threats or benefits for example. But self itself is made of thougts. So, thougts claiming thoughts to have meanings.

Is there an “I” writing or is there just writing? Is there an “I” making decisions or doing anything?
Try this: On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm. Notice the exact point when the arm goes up. Did you know what arm would be chosen before it went up? Was there a chooser, an “I”, or was the choice just made?

Very interesting. I did the exercise. Here goes it: 1.... mind goes: right, left, right, 2.. left, both, no right 3.. left, yes left 4.. no right, yes right, no left, no right, puh.. waiting for 5. 5.. right arm goes up.
I feel there was a desicion made around count 4 for right arm, and then I raised right arm. why did I choose it? I don´t know. The choice is another thougt, based on... I dont´t know, based on nothing really. based on thoughts.

Close your eyes for a few minutes and just listen. Is there an entity “I” that is experiencing sound through another entity “mind” or is there just experiencing sound?

I listen. I hear some birds there, and some people out on the street. I imagine now that there is just experiencing sound going on. It feels very nice. Meditative in a way.

Ok, so if you experience the “thinking mind as thoughts”, what else is there besides just thoughts that make it the mind?

Hmm.. nothing. there is just thougts appearing and dissapearing. Or experiences appearing and dissapearing. Thaught built together and stored somehow as memories also. But still just thoughts and experiences.

[Alexw]

So whats the purpose and function of having the "I/self" sense I wonder. And why do we want to drop it?

Yes, why are we looking to drop it? What does this “I/self” do? Is it good for anything but to support the illusion of separation? Is there maybe a drive to unity?

impossible to figure out the meaning of it all

Has there to be a meaning for life? How about: Life’s only meaning is life itself?

self itself is made of thougts

Well seen.

The choice is another thougt, based on... I dont´t know, based on nothing really. based on thoughts.

Getting close… look at this: Are thoughts "choosing" thoughts or are they just popping up? Select a random number between 1 and 20. What comes first, the number or the: "I have selected this number" - thought?

I imagine now that there is just experiencing sound going on

What is “imagining” that there is “just experiencing sound going on”? Is there an entity “imagining” or is this again a thought that comes up randomly stating “I am experiencing sound”?

Thaught built together and stored somehow as memories also

What are memories? Are they stored somewhere so you can access them like a huge database? Is there a controlled process “accessing memory database” happening or does “memory” just appear as a thought in the now?

[Same]

I was busy today. I will write a response tonight when I get home.

Sam

[Alexw]

OK, no problem. Thanks for letting me know.

[Same]

Too late, I'll have to write you tomorrow. Good night
Sam

[Same]

Ok Alex, I'm back!

Yes, why are we looking to drop it? What does this “I/self” do? Is it good for anything but to support the illusion of separation? Is there maybe a drive to unity?

Yes, I love when I feel more connected, unity. Maybe we have to experience non unity to experience unity. Fish doesn't know what water is.

Has there to be a meaning for life? How about: Life’s only meaning is life itself?

How nice, no need to search or figure out. Life is already happening right now. I like this.

Are thoughts "choosing" thoughts or are they just popping up? Select a random number between 1 and 20. What comes first, the number or the: "I have selected this number" - thought?

Clearly the number appeared before the thought that I did choose a number.

What is “imagining” that there is “just experiencing sound going on”? Is there an entity “imagining” or is this again a thought that comes up randomly stating “I am experiencing sound”?

I find nothing. When I look, I find only that experiencing sound is happening. I wonder, all the time I look for it, the self, I find nothing but thoughts, but it's like, it doesn't have any impact on my being. I look, find nothing, ok, going on whatever is going on. Nothing changes really. What is your experience of this?

What are memories? Are they stored somewhere so you can access them like a huge database? Is there a controlled process “accessing memory database” happening or does “memory” just appear as a thought in the now?

Hmm, tricky one. I feel I can somehow choose to go into memory, memories, or search to find specific memories when I need them, but now we are back again. Who is choosing to look at memories, hmm. Yes, now there are the thoughts or memories appearing that is needed in this moment. But where are they when not accessed now. Somehow stored in the brain?

Sam

[Alexw]

Yes, I love when I feel more connected, unity

What is unity to you? Please describe how unity feels and what your concept of unity is.

Maybe we have to experience non unity to experience unity.

Look up the "The Parable of the Lost Son" (Luke 15:11-32) and see if this relates to what you said.

Clearly the number appeared before the thought that I did choose a number.

Well seen.

I find nothing. When I look, I find only that experiencing sound is happening.

Again, well seen. No separate “I” necessary to claim ownership or control. Is there a border where sound ends and where “you” begin? Have a look at that also with feelings or other sensual perceptions. Really look into that and see what you find.
My experience about this… well, at first I found it confusing maybe even frightening, but later on I was wondering why I haven’t seen something that obvious a lot sooner… anyway, I don’t think I should say more about that, as I don’t want you to fabricate a view/believe based on story – the only way to do this right is to have your own experience and find out what is true and what is just believe.

I feel I can somehow choose to go into memory, memories, or search to find specific memories when I need them

Yes, this is a tricky one. Have a look at what happened. You read the question “What are memories?”. This triggers a natural reaction – thoughts about past events pop up. Did you make them pop up? Did you choose which events should pop up?
If I would have said “Tell me what exactly happened on the 12th of February at 11:30am” – what comes up? Just any thoughts about the past few months or exactly what I wanted you to do?

Do you think you decide, intend, choose, control any events in life? Do you make anything happen?
Try to find some examples.

[Same]

What is unity to you?

I would say, when interactions with anther beings or my surrendering goes effortless, relaxed. There is a feeling there, I would describe as unity.

Look up the "The Parable of the Lost Son" (Luke 15:11-32) and see if this relates to what you said.

Yes I can see how this relates to that, getting lost and finding home again. Or are we always home, just don,t recognize it?

Is there a border where sound ends and where “you” begin?

Physically I would say that sound comes from a source and picked up by a the receiver. Oh now I read the question again. hmm. So, sound enters my being, it creates a response in the body and some thoughts are created as response. I can't see where the sound stops.

Have a look at that also with feelings or other sensual perceptions.

Yes, I'm gonna play with that.

You read the question “What are memories?”. This triggers a natural reaction – thoughts about past events pop up. Did you make them pop up? Did you choose which events should pop up?

Memories appeared quite randomly. No I didn't choose. I will try to do that now.

Ok this happened, at one point I feel that I choosed what memories to search for, but at the point of deciding what memories to access, the memory or though was there already, I didn't make it appear in the first place.

If I would have said “Tell me what exactly happened on the 12th of February at 11:30am” – what comes up? Just any thoughts about the past few months or exactly what I wanted you to do?

I have no idea, random memories, and blanks appear.

Do you think you decide, intend, choose, control any events in life? Do you make anything happen?
Try to find some examples.

This is a bit scary, ok, do I really have no control how this life unfolds? Do I never really make a choice, or have a choice to make in the first place. wow, do I not choose what to write now? Is this just happening? I'm trying to understand this.

[Alexw]

when interactions with anther beings or my surrendering goes effortless

What is “other beings” or “surroundings”? Is it any more than what you are experiencing right now (sound, vision etc.)? Is there anything else other than what you are experiencing right now?

getting lost and finding home again. Or are we always home, just don,t recognize it?

Yes, getting lost = not knowing = living in ignorance. Coming home = realizing the truth.

...sound enters my being, it creates a response in the body and some thoughts...

You are telling a story, what we need is direct experiencing. Close your eyes and just listen. Can you experience a “source” or a “receiver”? Can you experience the sound to “enter your being”? Have a good look and tell me what you are experiencing. Is there any more than “just sound”? (we want no afterthoughts describing the experience – we need to look ONLY at the experience).

This is a bit scary, ok, do I really have no control how this life unfolds? Do I never really make a choice, or have a choice to make in the first place. wow, do I not choose what to write now? Is this just happening? I'm trying to understand this.

This does obviously not mean that there are no decisions being made - choosing happens constantly.
The question you have to look at is: Is there a separate “I” that is making any decisions?