Ok, I'm ready for a guide

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octoberc
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Ok, I'm ready for a guide

Postby octoberc » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:56 pm

My name is October & I've been reading the ebook, Gateless Gatecrashers...

As a bit of background I will say that I have been on my self-development journey for about 20 years... I feel that I have made great break throughs in the past year or so, recently feeling like I've made some break though to this thing that is called enlightenment, at least the very beginning anyway. I have read much about there being no self, and we are all connected and although I carry that as a belief and feel I understand it on some level, there is no evidence of it that I can see in my life... Like it just doesn't stick... So in the very least, I feel that if I have noticed this "liberation" I either don't recognize it for what it is or I think it's too simplistic to hold on to... It seems many have this issue with this process, so I'm ready to move on and see it clearly for what it is... I want to make lasting changes and positive results in my life. I don't want to be imprisoned by the thoughts I have about myself that cause suffering for me. I want to be free...

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Alexw
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Re: Ok, I'm ready for a guide

Postby Alexw » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:07 pm

Hi October,
My name is Alex and I am happy to guide you, if you like.
Kind regards,
Alex

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octoberc
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Re: Ok, I'm ready for a guide

Postby octoberc » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:53 pm

Hi Alex, thanks so much for replying, I'm ready!

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Alexw
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Re: Ok, I'm ready for a guide

Postby Alexw » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:42 am

Hi October,

Great! Welcome to LU.

There are a few formalities that I would like to go through first to make sure that we are in agreement prior to getting started.

If you have not yet, please read the disclaimer at the LU website: http://www.liberationunleashed.com
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Next, here are a few guidelines that I would like you to read before we begin.

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Please confirm that you have read and agree to these guidelines.

Ok, so much about formalities. Could you please tell me more about the breakthroughs that you mentioned in your introduction? What has been realized? How was this experienced?

You say that you believe that there is no self, but that you can see no evidence of that in your daily life. What do you expect an evidence of no-self to look like? Can there be an evidence of something that is not?
Try the opposite: What is this separate self or I? Where does it show up?

To make something stick there has to be knowledge - believe is not enough as this will always only be a temporary fix. To know you have to experience and see what is true for yourself. This is what guiding is all about – helping you to see for yourself.

Love,
Alex

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octoberc
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Re: Ok, I'm ready for a guide

Postby octoberc » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:31 am

I have read the disclaimer and agree to these guidelines as well.

Ok, so much about formalities. Could you please tell me more about the breakthroughs that you mentioned in your introduction? What has been realized? How was this experienced?
About a year ago my journey led me what I call full circle back to God. I was raised Christian but turned away from organized religion and started looking for my own answers while in high school. I was mad at that God and didn't believe that it was real... Enter new age/spirituality, ie, what most of us here have come to a point of investigating/researching... Personally I tried to find answers to questions that Christianity left in me anywhere but there. So what I mean by full circle is that I stopped running from what I felt Christianity turned God into, I forgave the resentment that I felt and stopped denying that the answers were there all along, I could find them, and that I didn't have to accept the packaging though. Suddenly I felt a connection, a control of my life if I just stopped trying to control everything myself and just let it be. The process for that was realizing I needed to face my fears, so I've asked myself questions and trusted that the answers would come. I also had to decide to trust myself and the answers that came to mind. The result has been that I feel more at peace, I feel like I am "out of my own way" a bit more and I just find peace in going with the flow and giving up the need to control and have expectations. I say this and there is still a part of me that I can not seem to fully face. The past year has kind of happened naturally, I have had to ask questions, I have had good cries, but for the most part it has just melted away. This last part seems to have more control over me than I it. So I feel like part of me has gotten it, part of me feels in harmony but another part is still the old me with suffering and stagnation.
You say that you believe that there is no self, but that you can see no evidence of that in your daily life. What do you expect an evidence of no-self to look like? Can there be an evidence of something that is not?
Try the opposite: What is this separate self or I? Where does it show up?
I think no self is rising above the suffering that identifying with thoughts causes. The one last issue that I see is feeling inadequate. I feel like it stems from growing up and not feeling good enough for my mom, I felt kind of competitive toward my step sister, she got better grades than me and was better behaved and I got a feeling of 2nd place and I guess I slipped into a place of feeling normal as inadequate. Now as an adult I feel I seem to relinquish myself to second best and don't strive to create an extroverted social or professional life. So I think that a no self would be realizing that the thoughts do not identify me, that I don't have to carry these memories of things from the past & that they don't relate to me, that I can have a future the way that I like. And I get that that is the way it should be, but day to day thoughts about my experiences say otherwise and I let those inner dialogs shape who I think I am.

I think the evidence of something that is not is only in the recognition from others. Other people believe I am who I am, they acknowledge that and that is the evidence. But that is conceptual as well, so there is no real evidence, only my thoughts and feelings that say that I am thinking them. "I" shows up in feelings and thoughts... I identify with these ideas... But is that just the "I" trying to fight for its existence?

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Alexw
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Re: Ok, I'm ready for a guide

Postby Alexw » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:37 am

I feel like I am "out of my own way" a bit more and I just find peace in going with the flow... I say this and there is still a part of me that I can not seem to fully face.
What if there is no separate me/I? Never was and never will be? What if these feelings that you "cannot fully face" are just feelings but don’t belong to any one? What if they just are and have not to be acted on (faced)? How does this thought make you feel?
So I feel like part of me has gotten it, part of me feels in harmony but another part is still the old me with suffering and stagnation.
You write that there are different parts of you that have different states (harmony/suffering). How can you tell these are parts of you and not just feelings or thoughts that come and go - some labelled "harmony" and others labelled "suffering", but essentially the same? Who is there to experience these feelings? Is there anyone?
I think no self is rising above the suffering that identifying with thoughts causes
Yes, the identification with thought is a very good observation. Is there anything that identifies with thought or is this identification just another thought (call it the “I” thought)?
The one last issue that I see is feeling inadequate
Yes, things that have been drilled into us since childhood are deeply ingrained and result in conditioned believes and actions. Still, just because you have been told that Santa exists when you were a child it did not keep you from dropping this believe once you saw that this was an illusion. Being inadequate or second best is such an illusion/believe and it only survives as long as it has the right conditions for survival – this being a separate self to attach itself to. No self means no illusions.
So I think that a no self would be realizing that the thoughts do not identify me, that I don't have to carry these memories of things from the past & that they don't relate to me
Is there a you that is carrying its memories?
Try this: Think about something that happened “in the past”? Do you access a “Memory”-database in your brain and then select a memory for your viewing or does a thought just pop up? Was there an entity that was selecting the thought?
"I" shows up in feelings and thoughts... I identify with these ideas... But is that just the "I" trying to fight for its existence?
How is identification happening? Is the process of identification any more than just another “I” thought?

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octoberc
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Re: Ok, I'm ready for a guide

Postby octoberc » Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:04 am

What if there is no separate me/I? Never was and never will be? What if these feelings that you "cannot fully face" are just feelings but don’t belong to any one? What if they just are and have not to be acted on (faced)? How does this thought make you feel?
I guess I feel like that's unauthentic, like where would that leave me if I denied what I know is my past, it feels like a part of me... Failing to acknowledge it haunts me and the process of acknowledging it is something that must be done in order to overcome it and release myself of it.
You write that there are different parts of you that have different states (harmony/suffering). How can you tell these are parts of you and not just feelings or thoughts that come and go - some labelled "harmony" and others labelled "suffering", but essentially the same? Who is there to experience these feelings? Is there anyone?
So from that I feel like, "Am I supposed to ignore these feelings?" I agree that they are just thoughts and feelings and that doesn't mean that that is "me". "Who is there to experience these feelings?" Well, me. I feel I'm having a bit of a time not going in circles... On the one hand I can think thoughts aren't me, but when you ask who has the thoughts I get stuck thinking... me...
Yes, the identification with thought is a very good observation. Is there anything that identifies with thought or is this identification just another thought (call it the “I” thought)?
It's another thought... I get that thoughts just appear, though my identification thought feels like I make that thought, but are you saying that if I can believe that other thoughts just appear there's no reason to think that that thought doesn't just appear as well?
Yes, things that have been drilled into us since childhood are deeply ingrained and result in conditioned believes and actions. Still, just because you have been told that Santa exists when you were a child it did not keep you from dropping this believe once you saw that this was an illusion. Being inadequate or second best is such an illusion/believe and it only survives as long as it has the right conditions for survival – this being a separate self to attach itself to. No self means no illusions.
I had noticed when I start a job that I can see when the pattern starts, and I was able to disassociate from the thoughts at first but as time and the pattern persisted it slowly starts to take over me. So it seems I can keep myself in check a bit by noticing but it's not a permanent part of who I am. I'm kind of getting hung up on the separate self you speak of here. What separate self? It attaches to me. Or maybe something has shifted... I know I described myself as being separate parts but now that doesn't seem to relate...
Is there a you that is carrying its memories?
Try this: Think about something that happened “in the past”? Do you access a “Memory”-database in your brain and then select a memory for your viewing or does a thought just pop up? Was there an entity that was selecting the thought?
So the memories reside in the same place that thoughts do and just pop up... But I do feel that it is a database that can be accessed, but on the other hand, I can't access anything I want, only things that I remember, or in other words things that have chosen to to be accessible. Meaning I can't choose to remember something that I don't have a memory of... You couldn't say tell me about your 9th birthday and me be able to answer if that memory hadn't been hashing over all these years and making itself known. The only memories I can access are those that for whatever reason have chosen to be repeated and kept in the forefront or ones that just surface. I don't know the entity that selects the thought. I can speculate on a personal level that they come from God, but there's no proof and this isn't about speculation, so there's nothing there beyond the thoughts...
How is identification happening? Is the process of identification any more than just another “I” thought?
It's just another thought... I'm trying to look for evidence of my previous thought processes, trying to see if I can have a thought to latch onto and unless I'm not doing something right my mind is just blank... Not a single previous anchor will come up... Will this change when my environment changes? I guess that's a fear or a concern. That life experiences will bring the same results as before, I'll follow the stream when it changes direction... But for now things feel different...

PS I hope I'm using the quote feature correctly. I should have mentioned that link didn't work

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Alexw
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Re: Ok, I'm ready for a guide

Postby Alexw » Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:14 am

Am I supposed to ignore these feelings?
No, I don’t want you to ignore these feelings – see them, experience them and release them - don’t attach anything to them that does not belong there.
It's another thought... I get that thoughts just appear, though my identification thought feels like I make that thought, but are you saying that if I can believe that other thoughts just appear there's no reason to think that that thought doesn't just appear as well?
Well seen – its only another thought. I don’t want you to believe that any thoughts (“I” or else) just appear – I want you to know this is so. Tell me, if thoughts don’t just appear, were do they come from? Is there a place where they are generated and then launched into your “mind”?
Or maybe something has shifted... I know I described myself as being separate parts but now that doesn't seem to relate...
Good. Keep looking at this.
So the memories reside in the same place that thoughts do and just pop up... But I do feel that it is a database that can be accessed, but on the other hand, I can't access anything I want, only things that I remember, or in other words things that have chosen to to be accessible.
Again, well seen. If memory resides in the same place as thoughts do and just pop up as thoughts do, do you see any difference between them? If you cant find an entity selecting a thought (or memory) what would be the logical conclusion?
Try this little exercise, maybe it shines some more light on the process of choosing/selecting: On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm. Notice the exact point when the arm goes up. Did you know what arm would be chosen before it went up? Was there a chooser or was the choice just made?
Is there a difference with "choosing" thoughts? If you think there is, then select a random number between 1 and 20. What comes first, the number or the: "I have selected this number" - thought?
It's just another thought... I'm trying to look for evidence of my previous thought processes, trying to see if I can have a thought to latch onto and unless I'm not doing something right my mind is just blank...
Great! It is just another thought. So, what is thought? Is thought itself experiencing anything or is thought being experienced?

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octoberc
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Re: Ok, I'm ready for a guide

Postby octoberc » Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:06 pm

Tell me, if thoughts don’t just appear, were do they come from? Is there a place where they are generated and then launched into your “mind”?
There's no way to tell where they come from, thoughts just are...
Did you know what arm would be chosen before it went up? Was there a chooser or was the choice just made?
Is there a difference with "choosing" thoughts? If you think there is, then select a random number between 1 and 20. What comes first, the number or the: "I have selected this number" - thought?
It just happens without thinking... Well now I want to know where that comes from... That comes from no where... Really, that's what I have to live with?? So we're getting at thoughts come from no where, they just are... And that's why there's no reason to identify with them or hang on to them... I say that and it doesn't feel real... Like I can look at it but it's foreign... Are we a blank slate? I guess I'm trying to unidentify with the thoughts, but then I think that's not possible because then I am nothing... The point can't be that I'm nothing... I feel like something, but now nothing is there... This feel familiar like I've been at this point before, maybe even weeks ago but it didn't stick... Could it be that I was detached but then found a reason, a need to attach to thoughts and that's what derailed me?

Because I guess in this whole process I feel like that is going to happen again, like this won't be permanent and I think maybe the reason is that when I hit a point of clarity (I'll call it that because it doesn't seem that it was an obvious point of "enlightenment") maybe it felt a little empty and I wrote it off as something that was supposed to be temporary... Like ok, I see it, but life must go on... Like life is about being identified with something and that messed it up... I do feel like I had clarity and maybe it was a step in this direction either way I guess I just felt the need to spell that out for myself...
Great! It is just another thought. So, what is thought? Is thought itself experiencing anything or is thought being experienced?
Thought just is... I'm really feeling like I am making these thoughts though... The ones that are created to answer these questions... If you're not having a conversation with me then who are you having the conversation with? I feel like I"m going way off base here, but if it's not me then who? Now I feel like certain thoughts pop into my head, but these thoughts are being brought forth by me... Like there are 2 sources for thoughts... I feel like negative thoughts about myself are being experienced but thoughts I am thinking I am causing... Now I feel like I'm back at square one... I lost it all, how did that happen?

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Alexw
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Re: Ok, I'm ready for a guide

Postby Alexw » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:14 pm

There's no way to tell where they come from, thoughts just are...
Well seen!
Really, that's what I have to live with?
Is there a you that has to live with it? How does that make you feel: Life just is – meant to be lived/experienced but not controlled?
Are we a blank slate?.. The point can't be that I'm nothing..
Close your eyes for a few minutes and look at what is there. What do you experience right now? Does this feel alive? Do you hear sounds? If so, is there a hearer that is hearing the sound or is there just “experiencing sound”?
This feel familiar like I've been at this point before, maybe even weeks ago but it didn't stick... Could it be that I was detached but then found a reason, a need to attach to thoughts and that's what derailed me?
There is nothing that you can loose or gain. How can you loose something that is not? They only thing that happens is that thoughts appear and then there is identification with the stories that are fabricated (this might be “derailing you”).
..maybe it felt a little empty and I wrote it off as something that was supposed to be temporary..
Who is this I that wrote it off? Do you think this could be a self-protection mechanism of something called “ego” – something that does not want to be made less important? What would the realisation that "I" don’t exist do to the ego?
If you're not having a conversation with me then who are you having the conversation with?
Good question! If there is no “I”, can there be a “you”? Who are "you" talking to?

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octoberc
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Re: Ok, I'm ready for a guide

Postby octoberc » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:23 am

Close your eyes for a few minutes and look at what is there. What do you experience right now? Does this feel alive? Do you hear sounds? If so, is there a hearer that is hearing the sound or is there just “experiencing sound”?
Ok, when you ask me to close my eyes and hear I really feel like a hearer. I recently read something that described the brain as being a receiver of thoughts or information, like a radio being a receiver of the frequency from the radio station. That makes sense to me, that thoughts don't come from the brain, that when parts of the brain light up on an MRI that it is the transmission of the frequency that is showing up. That I can get, that makes sense to me. So am "I" the receiver of the "me" frequency as well?? There is no me, there is just receiving of transmission which is thoughts/feelings?

Who is this I that wrote it off? Do you think this could be a self-protection mechanism of something called “ego” – something that does not want to be made less important? What would the realisation that "I" don’t exist do to the ego?
I do feel that I am experiencing some resistance from my ego. For instance I keep wanting to think ahead, thinking thoughts like "well, after I see the truth will I stop saying I? If someone asks me what I did this weekend, do I answer without starting the sentence with I?" That seems like a distraction, like once I see I will know that thinking that is irrelevant, but I still don't see it... The "I" is the ego, so the ego would be on the back burner, a character, a voice I could choose to ignore, its idea of me that it wants me to believe would be of no relevance. I do choose to disagree with my ego from time to time now, but I don't write it off completely right now, I do see it as separate as the me I have constructed as the person I think I want to be.

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Alexw
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Re: Ok, I'm ready for a guide

Postby Alexw » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:59 am

I really feel like a hearer...So am "I" the receiver of the "me" frequency...
Don’t complicate it. Look at what you are directly experiencing. Can you experience “brain” - or “receiving of transmission”? Or are both just a concept – a story? Don’t speculate or invent possibilities – they are all wrong. Look at what is real – is there “just hearing, just seeing, just thinking, just feeling” or rather “brain receiving a transmission on the me frequency”?
Can you experience the entity “hearer”? Let me know how this “I really feel like a hearer” is experienced.
after I see the truth will I stop saying I
That made me smile! Don’t worry you will still say “I” and it wont feel strange. The difference is that you will know (not just believe) that this word or thought “I” doesn’t point to anything that is real. Identification with a separate I will (gradually) drop off. That’s all. You can still say Santa Clause without feeling strange, can’t you?
What is “the person I think I want to be” like?

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octoberc
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Re: Ok, I'm ready for a guide

Postby octoberc » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:43 pm

Ok, things are falling into place... There is no "me", thoughts can come, thoughts will come and "I" don't have to attach to them... This person that people address as me is not me, there is no me, but that is the evidence that was used to build a "me"... This whole time has been nothing but an assumption built on a lie that we all identify each other with and then turned into a habit, taken over and perpetuated naturally. There really is no me. "I" think before, "I" knew this but didn't see it for what it was so the ego brushed it off as not important and it was forgotten.

Thank you for your patience and your guidance : )

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Alexw
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Re: Ok, I'm ready for a guide

Postby Alexw » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:07 am

OK, there is no "me", but what are you? Don't you exist? Aren't you aware of this sentence right now?

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octoberc
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Re: Ok, I'm ready for a guide

Postby octoberc » Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:17 am

"I", not the ego, am the experience of life... "I" am aware of awareness happening, but that is not me... Things feel lighter now, but it's hard to explain otherwise... I know something is different but it's hard to put into words.

Thinking exists, awareness exists, the body exists but there is no attachment to this... I will keep looking into this...

Tomorrow is going to be a long day, I got called into work so I'll only have a few hours available midday to respond, depending on your reply.


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