Ready to be guided

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deezer
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Ready to be guided

Postby deezer » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:57 am

Hello all,

Just stumbled onto this site yesterday, fantastic.

Was very impressed with a Jack'n'the box conversation. Is Jack'n'the box available to guide me?

If not it is no problem, I am sure you are all equally effective.

Looking forward to this adventure.

D


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Paulo
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Re: Ready to be guided

Postby Paulo » Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:11 pm

Hi Deezer, my name is Paulo and it would be a pleasure to guide you.

A few ground rules -

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from personal experience only.
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
5. Read the FAQ page to get an idea of what we do here - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_FAQ.html
6. Learn how to use the quote function when responded to messages - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

If you are happy to agree to the above, let me know and we can begin.

Share a little of your story so far, what brings you here?

What do you expect will happen?

Paulo :-)

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deezer
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Re: Ready to be guided

Postby deezer » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:03 pm

If you are happy to agree to the above, let me know and we can begin.
Hi Paulo,

Thanks for replying. I am happy to agree with all the terms and am excited to begin.

I have had some very wonderful experiences while practicing Tibetan buddhism, especially Dzogchen. It seems that there is a similar result between Dzogchen and following LU line of enquiry. Other than that I live in Switzerland and have a great time enjoying the Swiss alps with my family.

I expect that this line of enquiry will help to deconstruct a lot of my mental fabrications, leaving a simple sense of being. I hope that by following the line of enquiry I will end up with more than a glimpse, in fact a stable view.

Thank you for agreeing to help :-)

d

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Paulo
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Re: Ready to be guided

Postby Paulo » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:46 pm

Hi Deezer,

It's wonderful to have you here, and thank you for sharing some of your story so far.
I expect that this line of enquiry will help to deconstruct a lot of my mental fabrications, leaving a simple sense of being. I hope that by following the line of enquiry I will end up with more than a glimpse, in fact a stable view.
Nicely put. Just keep in mind that any expectations of what will happen are just that - expectations. They are just thoughts of what may or may not happen in a future that hasn't happened yet. All I ask is that you put them to one side, just for now, and accept whatever happens. Remember, reality has no respect for expectations, it simply is as you find it, and it's a very beautiful thing.

What thoughts, feelings, and sensations come up for you when you read the statement below -

There is no separate self behind the words 'me' or 'I' in reality, never was, and never will be.

Paulo.

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deezer
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Re: Ready to be guided

Postby deezer » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:04 pm

Nicely put. Just keep in mind that any expectations of what will happen are just that - expectations. They are just thoughts of what may or may not happen in a future that hasn't happened yet. All I ask is that you put them to one side, just for now, and accept whatever happens. Remember, reality has no respect for expectations, it simply is as you find it, and it's a very beautiful thing.

I am happy to put them aside.

What thoughts, feelings, and sensations come up for you when you read the statement below -

There is no separate self behind the words 'me' or 'I' in reality, never was, and never will be.

Paulo.
My pulse quickens and I can feel a constriction in the chest. Similar to when I am about to do something risky/exciting on my bike, etc. A quick burst of adrenaline.

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deezer
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Re: Ready to be guided

Postby deezer » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:11 pm

I didn't manage to split what you said into 2 quotes so I have a small answer hidden in the quote.

work in progress :-)
d

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Paulo
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Re: Ready to be guided

Postby Paulo » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:48 pm

I didn't manage to split what you said into 2 quotes so I have a small answer hidden in the quote.
No problem, got it :-)

Did any thoughts about the statement in my previous post come up? Did you agree with the statement?

What EXACTLY are you referring to when you say 'I'?


Paulo.

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deezer
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Re: Ready to be guided

Postby deezer » Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:15 pm

Well I can see that everything is direct experience, and that 'I' adds a thin conceptual veil which dampens the direct experience, but I still have some attachment to sense of 'I'. If that makes sense

D


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Paulo
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Re: Ready to be guided

Postby Paulo » Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:30 pm

Well I can see that everything is direct experience
Let's look in a little more detail at each of the elements of Direct Experience. Firstly we will look at THOUGHT -

Think of a car.

Share your experience of what happens when you think of the above in as much detail as you can.

How did the thought arrive? Was there a Deezer there choosing the particular car that appeared in thought, it's colour, size, etc?

How did that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared?

If you wish to read a little more about DE (Direct Experience), there's a short little article here from Neil that might be of interest - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html

Paulo.

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deezer
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Re: Ready to be guided

Postby deezer » Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:59 pm

Well I can see that everything is direct experience
Let's look in a little more detail at each of the elements of Direct Experience. Firstly we will look at THOUGHT -

Think of a car.

Share your experience of what happens when you think of the above in as much detail as you can.
It is very hard to think of the car. A white car popped into mind. I have no idea why. It wasn't a car that I particularly recognized. But as I started to look closer at it then it started to distort, dissolve. So if I tried to see the lights then I could see big lights in relation to a shrinking car. Then I try to see the car again and it is less clear. Before I know it it is very difficult to think of the car, and it dissolves. So I tried to think of what used to be a favourite car of mine years ago. Here there is a deezer trying to image a car, and it is very forced, and none clearer.
How did the thought arrive? Was there a Deezer there choosing the particular car that appeared in thought, it's colour, size, etc?
nope it just popped up when I read your words.
How did that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared?
Absolutely no idea, but it is very interesting that it did.
If you wish to read a little more about DE (Direct Experience), there's a short little article here from Neil that might be of interest - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html
Yep I will do.
d

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deezer
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Re: Ready to be guided

Postby deezer » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:10 pm

Great article. I can feel the lack of seperate self when using touch. I noticed that using vision is very seperated. I held a pen infront of me. I could feel the lack of separations between my fingers and the pen, but I couldn't shift the idea that there was a pen infront of me.

d

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Paulo
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Re: Ready to be guided

Postby Paulo » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:51 pm

A white car popped into mind
That's perfect, the first thought that comes into awareness is what we're looking at here. That's direct experience, it's right here, right now. Anything after that is 'thinking about' what happened, and is just a thought, an illusion. Remember, thoughts are real, they are experienced, but the content of thought is not real.

You saw this when you tried to examine the white car in more detail - it shifted, changed, was not stable or lasting. That's what we aim to do here - look at what IS, and anything that is real will remain, anything that is illusion will disappear.
So I tried to think of what used to be a favorite car of mine years ago. Here there is a deezer trying to image a car, and it is very forced, and none clearer.
Let's look at that in a little more detail, and whether there was there really a Deezer making a choice to think of a favourite car.

Next time there is a choice to be made, for example, a choice between tea and coffee, left or right when walking down the street, take a closer look at what's happening. Try to pinpoint the very moment the choice is made.

Is there really a Deezer there making that choice, or is there just an experience that's later labelled as a choice made by 'Deezer'?
How did the thought arrive? Was there a Deezer there choosing the particular car that appeared in thought, it's colour, size, etc?
nope it just popped up when I read your words.
Great, you can see that thoughts just arise in response to stimuli, whether that be physical stimuli (words on the page), or in response to other thoughts. There's no Deezer there behind it all, sitting on a cloud sorting through all possible cars and making a decision to deliver one to consciousness.

You might also like to try looking at thoughts again, this time with a 'word association' exercise -

Look at the words in the list below. As soon as you read them write whatever come to mind beside them - that should be fun! I've completed the first one for you as an example. When you have finished ask -

Was there really a Deezer there deciding on the associated words?

Banana - Monkey
Table -
Lady -
Corner -
Flagpole -
Paper -
Lamp -
Newspaper -
Murder -
Handle -
Animal -

Enjoy that one, Paulo.

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deezer
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Re: Ready to be guided

Postby deezer » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:06 am

A white car popped into mind
Remember, thoughts are real, they are experienced, but the content of thought is not real.
Interesting. I don't get it yet.
That's what we aim to do here - look at what IS, and anything that is real will remain, anything that is illusion will disappear.
Sounds great.
Next time there is a choice to be made, for example, a choice between tea and coffee, left or right when walking down the street, take a closer look at what's happening. Try to pinpoint the very moment the choice is made.
This is not easy. I am going to continue with this as it is hard to pinpoint any moment other that the 'choice' just pops up also.
Is there really a Deezer there making that choice, or is there just an experience that's later labelled as a choice made by 'Deezer'?
Well it's pointing towards the second option, but I need to experience this more.
Great, you can see that thoughts just arise in response to stimuli, whether that be physical stimuli (words on the page), or in response to other thoughts. There's no Deezer there behind it all, sitting on a cloud sorting through all possible cars and making a decision to deliver one to consciousness.
Correct.


Was there really a Deezer there deciding on the associated words?


No but it struck me that some words popped up out of a habitual tendency. The process didn't seem creative, but rather functional
Banana - Monkey
Table - Chair
Lady - lover
Corner - stone
Flagpole - Blank, just an image of a flag pole came to mind
Paper - basket
Lamp - bright
Newspaper - article
Murder - she wrote
Handle - car
Animal - rights
It's been a great day, thank you Paulo. I'm off to bed.

Until tomorrow.

d

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Paulo
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Re: Ready to be guided

Postby Paulo » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:29 am

Is there really a Deezer there making that choice, or is there just an experience that's later labelled as a choice made by 'Deezer'?
Well it's pointing towards the second option, but I need to experience this more.
Great, I certainly won't ask you to take anything for granted here, that would just be asking you to take on another belief. Your own experience is the best teacher, and remember to always LOOK at what's happening in the moment. Don't think ABOUT what's happening, that happens after the moment has passed, but actually look. Try a few more activities where there is a 'choice' to be made, and look at how that process actually works. You can share your findings here if you wish.
Was there really a Deezer there deciding on the associated words?
No but it struck me that some words popped up out of a habitual tendency. The process didn't seem creative, but rather functional
Sure, you can see here again perhaps that thoughts arise in response to stimuli, it's almost mechanical or automatic. Everyday life passes by so quickly we hardly notice this taking place, but if you slow things down and look at what's happening you may find that things just seem to arise without a Deezer there in the background making an actual choice as to what comes up.
Remember, thoughts are real, they are experienced, but the content of thought is not real.
Interesting. I don't get it yet.
No problem, we can look at this one right away. If you 'thought' you were a millionaire and walked into a Rolls Royce showroom to buy a car would they give you one, or call security? If you 'thought' you could walk on water and wanted to test that theory could you actually do it, or would you be taking an early bath? If you were hungry and 'thought' you had eaten a meal, would your belly be full and your appetite fulfilled?

We can think anything we want - that we can fly, walk through walls, run like the wind, but if we actually look at direct experience these are just thoughts, illusions, fantasies. The thought is real - it's actually experienced, but the content of that thought is not.

But again, don't take my word for it, let's try a little exercise to explore how the mind mistakes the imaginary character 'I' for a real being and how it will attempt to protect or preserve what it believes itself to be.

This little exercise demonstrates how the mind mistakes the imaginary character 'I' in thought for a real being, and tries to protect it. It's what we might call the 'jump test'.

Step 1: Stand in a room where you have some quiet and some space
Step 2: Close your eyes and imagine as vividly as you can that you are standing on the roof of a tall building. Feel the wind around you, hear the traffic and noise of the street below, check if it's night or day, have a look around and note what you can see - engage as many senses in the imaginary experience as you can.
Step 3: In your imagination walk to the edge of the building - look at how far the street is below, see the traffic and people if there are any, see your feet on the edge.
Step 4: Both in your imagination and with the physical body take a step forward over the edge.

Observe how the body reacts, observe how the imaginary characters falls - did you reach the bottom, landing on the ground?

Try that exercise again until you can successfully fall and land.

The laws of physics don't apply to the imagination - why do you think people find it so difficult to fall to the bottom?


Paulo.

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deezer
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Re: Ready to be guided

Postby deezer » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:45 pm

Great, I certainly won't ask you to take anything for granted here, that would just be asking you to take on another belief. Your own experience is the best teacher, and remember to always LOOK at what's happening in the moment. Don't think ABOUT what's happening, that happens after the moment has passed, but actually look. Try a few more activities where there is a 'choice' to be made, and look at how that process actually works. You can share your findings here if you wish.
I'm probably going to answer this in a few replies as there is so much in it.

So refering to the above quote, I found it very hard to pinpoint when a choice is made. It was almost always made before my awareness tuned in. I haven't been able to find any deezer that is making choices. This is quite unnerving as it gives me the feeling of something other than deezer having control. This has also made me think to much about it rather than trust in the experience. So interesting and still a work in progress.

Sure, you can see here again perhaps that thoughts arise in response to stimuli, it's almost mechanical or automatic. Everyday life passes by so quickly we hardly notice this taking place, but if you slow things down and look at what's happening you may find that things just seem to arise without a Deezer there in the background making an actual choice as to what comes up.
So what is making the choices/reactions to stimuli?

d


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