denise is ready

[denise]

i am seeking a guide please. i'm in the u.s. - mountain time. this is how i type.
thank you, i am looking forward to seeing. seeing what is happened to me once and lasted 1 1/2 days. it was awesome. i've been practicing mindfulness for a while now and am aware when ego and fear arise. i've read way too much and have lots of conflicting ideas and questions in my head which i am going to put aside and hope will not feel the need to pick up after this process of direct pointing.
thank you so much!
d

[DianaM]

Hello Denise,

I will be happy to help you see through the illusion of self.You will need to bring to this forum a desire for truth, curiosity and honesty, I will ask questions and you will answer from your experience, no need to look for the answers in books and other sources. There are no right or wrong answers here, an honest

First tell me more more about what you have explored so far relating to this illusion, what motivates you to participate here and what do you expect from this investigation.

Diana

[denise]

yay diana!! thank you so much!

First tell me more more about what you have explored so far relating to this illusion, what motivates you to participate here and what do you expect from this investigation.

it's been a pretty quick journey. about a year or two of exploring alternative health and healing, then realizing i am eternal, and just recently finding bernadette roberts books on no-self and then jed mckenna. both of them i now realize had way too much drama with their transitions. they hooked me because i used to be a drama queen too.
i am motivated to get to no-self because i did see clearly once directly through my heart and it was so much better than all the barriers i see through regularly. i realize no-self might not be that way for me when it happens and that's ok.
i expect to truly get from working with you that i have no self. since i asked for a guide i have been using Tom's guiding with Ilona from the GG book and going thru the questions as if she was asking me. i still have some hang-ups and am excited to do this work with you.
i have read the instructions and do agree to follow them.
thank you so much, d

[denise]

hi diana,
i'm stuck at Who Is Orchestrating What. i get that the universe is orchestrating body, emotions, thoughts, circumstances. to me it seems that denise orchestrates paperwork, driving, choosing; i'm not sure how it's not me that does those things.
thanks!

[DianaM]

Hi Denise, thanks for your clear introduction!

I'm feeling happy to start this thread with you.

Just a few things before we start with the questions:

-What we point at here is very simple, there is no separate self. Thoughts may try to make it look complicated, we are not looking for a permanent altered state, fixing what is perceived as wrong in daily life, or getting rid of unwanted emotions. Just trying to point to the truth as it already is. This video may be useful, please take a look. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyNwhK2Ur1c

-We will post at least once daily if possible, at least to say hi, so the momentum of the investigation is kept.

-It is better to interrupt reading other books or sources related to this while this thread lasts. Instead of answering in an intellectual way just observe. You can read other threads here or the gateless gatecrashers book if it’s helpful. If you have a meditation practice you can keep doing it.

-I won’t be teaching you, just pointing... I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it

If you agree, we can begin…

i am looking forward to seeing. seeing what is happened to me once and lasted 1 1/2 days. it was awesome.

Yes, experiences can be awesome, but they come and go, don’t they? just as thoughts and feelings do.

These questions are about what you expect to happen as a result of this.

What will be different?
How will you feel or not feel?
Do you expect to gain/lose something?

[denise]

hi diana,
here is what i got from the video:
I desire to look with honesty. I’m okay with being wrong. shocks can be fun! I trust.
From concept to real looking. Not like/dislike/compare/think/filter but pure innocent attention for looking brings awareness of beliefs that depend on “I “ thought.
My looking becomes a fire to open the door to no-self. Looking and checking. Recognize the power of honesty/truth, an energy. Begin to stick with experience as it is not as I think it is.

Another reason to get this done is yes, that i am not reading about nonduality, etc during this process.

Daily or more frequent posting is great for me as i have the time now.

What will be different?
How will you feel or not feel?
Do you expect to gain/lose something?

different - i'm hoping i will have less baggage eventually due to the process and afterwards. also seeing others as they truly are.
feel - lighter, freer, less constricted by conditioning
gain - personal power
lose - caring what other people think

:)

[DianaM]

Hi Denise, i am glad to see that you are so enthusiastic about this too.

Ok, now we´re going to check some sentences from your first posts. Then we´ll move on to the last two answers you sent.

"i am looking forward to seeing. seeing what is happened to me once and lasted 1 1/2 days"

"i am motivated to get to no-self because i did see clearly once directly through my heart and it was so much better than all the barriers i see through regularly. "

Could you expand on what this experience was like?

i realize no-self might not be that way for me when it happens and that's ok.

Excellent that you're not waiting for seeing to happen the same way it was for others. If you have seen some threads here and gateless gate book you may have noticed it happens in many different ways.

i've been practicing mindfulness for a while now and am aware when ego and fear arise.

That will be really useful, please be alert and tell me anytime fears or uncomfortable emotions arise. Tell me, what is ego?

[denise]

Could you expand on what this experience was like?

i was rafting on the river 3 or 4 years ago and just looking a hill with red dirt and green trees and the blue sky with white clouds and really appreciating them and the fact that i am alive during such an easy time to be on the earth with all the things technology offers and all of a sudden my heart opened up. at the time i did not have a frame of reference for what happened, i believe there was probably silence inside me but i don't specifically remember. i went to work the next day and remember seeing one of my customers that i hadn't seen for a long time and just loving them so much. i know they felt it. then after about 1 1/2 days i had an interaction with someone who pushes all my buttons and i fell out of that state.

please be alert and tell me anytime fears or uncomfortable emotions arise.

yes, i will as soon as i notice. so far just excitement to have a guide. :)

Tell me, what is ego?

ego is "I" and struggle and pain and separation and specialness and fear.

thanks Diana!
denise

[DianaM]

Thanks for sharing this experience, Denise.

Some experiences last longer than others, some may last one day or a few seconds. Then they end as you have noticed, more important than the time they last or if they come and go, it is what you notice during them. No need for any state or condition to be long or permanent, only to observe. We may come back to this later if needed.

º Let’s try an exercise, no hurry… do it when you have time. Walks in nature or going outdoors can be really helpful. Even a park could work for doing it if going out of town is difficult. Just go and see how everything happens. Notice your breath, the trees, people walking by and report about it here when you do, You can try it once or more times during this investigation. As i mentioned before, we’re not trying to make any state permanent, only to observe.

different - i'm hoping i will have less baggage eventually due to the process and afterwards. also seeing others as they truly are.
feel - lighter, freer, less constricted by conditioning
gain - personal power
lose - caring what other people think

Before knowing what “others” are, we’ll need to check closely if there is an “i“ over here and “others” over there. More precisely you may see what “you” and “others” are not.

º What do you imagine will change, reality or the perspective about it?

hi diana,
i'm stuck at Who Is Orchestrating What. i get that the universe is orchestrating body, emotions, thoughts, circumstances. to me it seems that denise orchestrates paperwork, driving, choosing; i'm not sure how it's not me that does those things.
thanks!

Great!! then you can see that you don’t orchestrate body, emotions, thoughts, circumstances. :)
º Could you explain to me how this happens as if i have never heard about it before?

º Then tell me, what's the difference between the first part of the list (emotions, thoughts, circumstances)
and the second (paperwork, driving, choosing)?
º Why do the first part doesn’t seem under "your" control and the second does?

Somedays i have more free time than others, i am fine with answering more than once when time allows. Shorter but more frequent replies may work well.

[denise]

hi diana!

What do you imagine will change, reality or the perspective about it?

i'm sure it's my perspective that will change.

i will get back to you with the rest later tonight or tomorrow.

thanks, d

[DianaM]

Hi Denise, just a quick comment

i'm sure it's my perspective that will change.

YES! That's how it is, Reality is already as it is and after seeing through the illusion, it is perspective what changes. good that you notice this.

i believe there was probably silence inside me but i don't specifically remember.

Oh, the silence! Enjoy it when it comes!

I'll wait for the rest of your answers, you're doing great!

[denise]

hi diana!

Great!! then you can see that you don’t orchestrate body, emotions, thoughts, circumstances. :)
º Could you explain to me how this happens as if i have never heard about it before?

I’m guessing it kind of like trees grow. A nut falls to the ground, gets buried by a squirrel who promptly forgets it and in spring, the seed sprouts and eventually with no self-volition grows into a tree. Trees take whatever comes to them – sun, rain, wind, storms, chainsaws, pavement, antler marks, bear scratches. They have no choice about whether to grow or how they grow or how long they live or how they die.
People are the same as trees. The earth/universe/oneness produces people and we have no volition in that choice. We don’t make ourselves be born, or grow, or die. We don’t choose the things that happen to us in life- joy, pain, sorrow, death. I don’t know if a tree has thoughts and emotions but people do. Thoughts and emotions also just arise, they are just more of life/universe/oneness expressing and experiencing.

º Then tell me, what's the difference between the first part of the list (emotions, thoughts, circumstances)and the second (paperwork, driving, choosing)?

Emotions arise paperwork arises
I can just notice the emotion I can just notice the paperwork
I don’t have to fix the emotion I don’t have to do the paperwork
The emotion will pass I will be homeless
A new emotion will arise more paperwork will arise

Is paperwork the universe expressing itself? If so, that’s messed up! Ok, maybe I get it. Paperwork arises and I can resist it or not?

º Why do the first part doesn’t seem under "your" control and the second does?

How does the universe orchestrate driving and choosing?
Oneness is driving through me? No, AS me. (I don’t know what this means)
But if this body doesn’t choose to get behind the wheel oneness won’t be driving my car today.
Driving arises… choosing arises…I can resist or not? Am I on the right track? (LOL) I’m lost. (LOL)

º Let’s try an exercise, no hurry… do it when you have time. Walks in nature or going outdoors can be really helpful. Even a park could work for doing it if going out of town is difficult. Just go and see how everything happens. Notice your breath, the trees, people walking by and report about it here when you do, You can try it once or more times during this investigation. As i mentioned before, we’re not trying to make any state permanent, only to observe.

Breathing happens all by itself, trees also, but if people walk by it seems to be because they want to and so make the effort to do so.

thanks for guiding me!
d

[DianaM]

Hi Denise,

“I’m guessing it kind of like trees grow. A nut falls to the ground, gets buried by a squirrel who promptly forgets it and in spring, the seed sprouts and eventually with no self-volition grows into a tree. Trees take whatever comes to them – sun, rain, wind, storms, chainsaws, pavement, antler marks, bear scratches. They have no choice about whether to grow or how they grow or how long they live or how they die.
People are the same as trees. “
“Breathing happens all by itself, trees also, but if people walk by it seems to be because they want to and so make the effort to do so.”

Good way of expaining it. That’s it! just life expressing.

º Did the nut decided to fall, did the wind decided to blow or the bear to scratch the tree, then if you walk near to the tree and go and sit under it’s shade, did you decide to do it? What's the difference between the nut or the tree that don’t decide and people seeming to decide?

I got more exercises for you, try them and tell me what you observe.

º get up… walk slowly…
is there a controller that controls walking?
or
is there just walking? How does walking happens?

º Try looking at the moment you wake up in the morning, how does this happen? Is a YOU needed for that to happen? For the eyes to open? to choose the moment when you stand and get out of bed?

“Ok, maybe I get it. Paperwork arises and I can resist it or not?”
“Driving arises… choosing arises…I can resist or not? Am I on the right track? (LOL) I’m lost. (LOL)”

º Yes, driving happens, filling out paperwork happens. What is resistance? A thought, an emotion? Something else? WHAT can resist or not resist to do the paperwork?

[denise]

Diana,

Did the nut decided to fall, did the wind decided to blow or the bear to scratch the tree, then if you walk near to the tree and go and sit under it’s shade, did you decide to do it? What's the difference between the nut or the tree that don’t decide and people seeming to decide?

you are saying there is no difference. that i think it's me moves this body but that really it's just life or oneness expressing. i only think 'i' am choosing?

get up… walk slowly…is there a controller that controls walking? or is there just walking? How does walking happens?

when i walk like you write about first i choose to walk and then i do it. but if i think there is danger i don't think at all, i'm just moving. so the thinking is unnecessary, just an extra step that 'i' adds.

Yes, driving happens, filling out paperwork happens. What is resistance? A thought, an emotion? Something else? WHAT can resist or not resist to do the paperwork?

resistance is emotion and also sometimes thought too. i can't find a WHAT that resists doing the paperwork and yet it is not done.

i will do the waking exercise tomorrow.
thanks, d

[denise]

Try looking at the moment you wake up in the morning, how does this happen? Is a YOU needed for that to happen? For the eyes to open? to choose the moment when you stand and get out of bed?

Ha! "i" got the jump on me and we were out of bed before i knew it. the "i" has lots of things it wants to do today. i was thinking about being a light sleeper and sometimes an insomniac - i believe both are caused by or exacerbated by a preponderance of "i". because what am i doing when i can't sleep- thinking. and when just the slightest noise wakes me up it's because "i" is super-alert.
maybe tomorrow the "i" will wake up after the body. sometimes before or after a nap when i'm between awake and asleep there is an interval where the body has almost disappeared into a floating/expanded/not solid sensation and that is all the awareness there is. it's fun, that blurring of the lines of me. we are so conditioned to be solid and grounded.
thanks Diana.
d