Otter Rivers and Cassius Ribhkus

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
otterrivers
Posts: 511
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:48 pm

Otter Rivers and Cassius Ribhkus

Postby otterrivers » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:59 am

[FROM FACEBOOK GATE GROUP/PRIVATE CHAT. PASTED TO GUIDING AREA]


Cassius Ribhkus-

I pondered hard and here is what I feel:

Even the search for Enlightenment is the Ego deceiving you. It tells you that you're not happy, that by asking these questions and getting these answers would make you Enlightened.

In actual fact, there is no need. The paradox is, there was never a need to be "Enlightened" or even questioning. Because no matter how hard you search, you'll never find the answer.

And here's the best part, there was never a need to question or have an answer. It is all there. All Is.

And so, knowing this, all you got to do is enjoy the show called Life.

Free from the need to question or obtain an answer simply because it is pointless to do so.

There was never a question or an answer. The Ego tricked us into it. Realising this, is the Truth.



Otter Rivers -Cassius I would like to ask:

Have you seen fully through illusion of self or is anything missing?


Cassius Ribhkus Otter Rivers I have somehow grasped it. The Self (Ego) latches itself on memories, events (past or future), and creates unnecessary doubts and questions. Alas, I'm still curious as to why I don't really feel "free". I still have this sense that there is something missing but I have no idea what it is.

Cassius Ribhkus But you see, I also have come to an understanding that even the desire to be Enlightened / Free is alas, a desire. Perhaps one is truly free when one let's go. That is the message I'm getting. I hope I'm right. Just need some assurance on this one as the monkey Mind is questioning even this haha

Christian Shadlock When you say 'I don't feel free' - What is 'I'?

Cassius Ribhkus The Ego. It always tries to latch on an identity or an idea to somewhat comfort itself that it has found the Truth.

Cassius Ribhkus Btw, when you speak of the illusion of the self, are you referring to the Ego? Because as I was growing up, I was raised to understand that the Self is separate from the Ego (based on Ramana Maharshi's articles)

i'll continue with you Cassius. sorry for the delay.

Otter Rivers so tell me more about the ego and the self. you say you have grasped that there is not really a separate self. logically it makes sense right? but experience is more important. you say you don't feel free. understanding is not enough. so we'll go through some exercises that will show you for yourself whatever is trye.

but first some questions.

1) tell me what is ego? is it a thing? does it exist? you might say the ego does this or that but is there an ego? describe what you find.

2) is ego different than self? depends what you mean by "self" right? self is a word. it means what you think it means.

So look for "I". please describe what you find when looking for it. not what you think about it, but what is actually experienced.

Otter Rivers 3) even the search for enlightenment is a selfish desire? yes I can see how that's true. but if you desire to stop desiring, is that any better?

why do you want to be free from desire?
- to improve your life?
- to help make others happy because that is what you want for them?

is there any escape from that selfishness?

Otter Rivers your answers should give me a good idea of where we're at here then we can get into some DE (direct experience) exercises.


Cassius Ribhkus-

Hi Otters! I have been doing some soul searching (to put it in laymen terms haha) and here is something I wrote recently which I think will answer all the questions. And I am convinced this is the answer.

The My Syndrome. My car, my wife, my life, my job, my kids, my husband, my food, my shirt, my pants, my computer, my this and my that, but really, who is this my fellow? Who am I?

And so I start by questioning this name which was given to me since I was born but really, deep down I know that even this is not me. It is but a label given to this identity in this present body. So who am I? And that is when the questioning process begins. I start to question my existence. How I came about, who I was in my past births, which planetary system I came from, which star I fall under, my astrological signs. I start to delve into religious practices and spiritual practices simply because I am not satisfied with the answer. I start to pray to an illusionary God. And then I start to question even him. I start to experience conventional and non conventional methods; meditation, yoga, psychedelics, substances. I start reading books, listening to podcasts, read articles, watch videos, scouring, looking, seeking, finding for an answer but really, who am I? And I get desperate at every phase of the process.

Who is this being, seemingly trapped in a human body, stuck in this cycle of life and death, governed by the laws of physics and gravity and not to mention the laws of cause and effect and obligated to an illusionary God and fearing his illusionary sidekick, the Devil?

Who am I?

And so I question everything under the sun and moon. My very existence, purpose, meaning to life. But really, who am I? I learn terminologies that label me and it only complicated matters. I start learning about the soul and spirit and chakras and various ways by various Masters but each time when I think I have found an answer, I drop down disappointed and resume questioning everything again and again. It is always going back to the same square one. Who am I?

I crave to find out the Truth. The very same written in myriad of Holy texts and hymns. I crave to unearth my true identity. By now, I already know that I am not just an identity or an entity. I already understand that I am a part of a process. This process. But again, who am I? And it's a simple answer to a really stupid question.

A paradox. But a necessary one.

And as long as the Ego remains, as long as the Ego is not put to sleep, I will never feel Awake. Because the Ego has this habit of labelling itself. I am this. I am that. That is mine. This is me. That is you. I am not Enlightened. I am Enlightened. The Ego, in a bid to find out its true identity, chooses to ignore the simple answer. A very simple answer simply because the Ego thinks the answer should be something complex. The Ego tells me that the Truth I'm searching for is grand, mysterious, beautiful, majestic, big, huge and whenever it finds a need a to label something, it will never cease to stop labelling. And so long as it is never satisfied, I'll keep searching.

So who am I?

I had always known who I was but had chosen to ignore the answer. The answer, alas, had always been staring point blank in my face.

I am nothing.

There you go. I am free. It's an offensive answer if the Ego is not put to bed. But truly, I have always been nothing and there was never a need to question in the first place simply because this is the Truth. And even the word nothing, is alas a label to a feeling you get when you come to a point where you just let go and let be. All Is.

All that questioning was but a process to tame the Ego. To put it to sleep and remind myself that I had always been Awake.

What a paradox! What foolishness! I laugh it off. All Is. Just be.

I am free!



Otter Rivers ok. so you clearly state there is an ego that must be put to sleep.

Otter Rivers and you say the biggest question is "who am I?" how about this one: is there any such thing as a 'Who'?

Cassius Ribhkus There is nothing. All is

Otter Rivers ask yourself this. "what is "I"?" please tell me not what you have already figured out, but what is found when looking right now.

Cassius Ribhkus I is just a letter. A label of some sort.

Otter Rivers so you can't really find an I, but try harder. don't tell me what is not there. tell me what you do find in the search.

Otter Rivers a label for what?

Otter Rivers stop.

Otter Rivers please don't feel the need to answer quickly

Otter Rivers I have to leave for a few hours. maybe 6 hours.

Otter Rivers take your time. relax if you can. get out of thinking and look at reality. look at what is perceived. when looking for "I", you may not find it. but what is found along the way while searching?

Otter Rivers i'll check back in tonight (i'm on u.s. west coast time. you?)

Cassius Ribhkus Haha Otters, all I get is a brain numbing sensation that I just feel that the questioning should stop and I should just start seeing things for what they are. Seeing things as it is and be completely free and liberated from even the search. I'm based in Malaysia, it's 3.22AM here.

Otter Rivers let's look at some places commonly considered to be evidence of a separate self.

-body. senses/sensations
-thoughts, thinking/thinker
-control, decision making, free will
-awareness, one who is aware of separate outside stimuli/experiencer vs experience

Otter Rivers starting with body: here's an exercise to look into body as self. it's not enough to know logically you are not the body. let's have a look at actual reality before mental commentary about it.

Otter Rivers Close your eyes (after reading this ) notice the feelings labeled "body" now look for an end to the feeling. hear the sounds and see if they are really happening outside of this feeling of being. where do you end and "everything else" begin? now try flipping it around. imagine everything else at the center and the body feeling as the outer... (leave out anything you've ever learned about biology or physics for a moment.) is either perspective actually true in d.e.?

Otter Rivers when closing your eyes, feeling "body". and while noticing sounds. which is closer, the sound or the body feeling? closer to what?

Cassius Ribhkus I feel the sounds are closer than the feeling of body, although I do feel the body's presence.

Otter Rivers is there a center of sensitivity inside the body that notices everything?

Otter Rivers if so, what notices that?

Otter Rivers can you find a noticer?

Cassius Ribhkus Yes there is. It is this nameless, formless, I.

Otter Rivers if it is nameless and formless then how is it located only in the body?

Otter Rivers exercise: pick up any object around you. tell me when you have done so.

Cassius Ribhkus Alright Otter, I have picked up my wallet nearby. Holding it right now.

Otter Rivers now look at it. feel it

Otter Rivers can you find any actual separation between thethe object and awareness of the object?

Otter Rivers if you can, please describe. look for the exact dividing line between what is noticed and the noticing of it

Cassius Ribhkus Visually yes. It is square, slightly rough. Black in color.

Cassius Ribhkus And when I run my fingers on its surface, I can feel the difference in texture and design of it.

Otter Rivers i'm not asking for a description of the object of awareness. i'm asking can you find a dividing line where there is noticing vs what is noticed.

Otter Rivers ?

Cassius Ribhkus If that is the case, none. I feel it's one and the same.

Otter Rivers if there is no you, then how is there a central observer? or is it just one thing happening? I don't have a word for it but a good description might be experience and experiencer before the thought of separation between the 2.

Cassius Ribhkus In other words, you're saying, all is. Correct?

Otter Rivers well of course all is. how could it not be? i'm suggesting that you consider that the idea of a me witnessing an outer world is a learned fiction

Otter Rivers but I don't ask you to believe it. that's what these exercises are for. whatever is true, you'll see for yourself. I recommend being very suspicious of anything I say. what if i'm wrong? let d.e. be your guide

Otter Rivers I've got to go to work now. I won't be home until midnight (4am for you) so i'll send you off with this homework. take this with you through the day and night and morning. whenever you remember. look at everything happening. go outside look at the sky and animals and trees. be around people while they're doing their thing. look for self. ("others" is another word for self. if it is assumed that there are selfs in the others) is there any motivating force behind any of it? or is it just movement, color, sound, sensation. just experience playing out. including experience of watching.

Otter Rivers talk to you tomorrow cassius later!

Cassius Ribhkus Otter! There is no I. Just the process. Because when I looked at the wallet, visually I saw its shape. When I touched it, I felt its roughness. But really, there was no observer. Simply these sensations. There is really nothing.

Otter Rivers bye for now.

Cassius Ribhkus Alright, will practise this homework. Thanks buddy, see you tomorrow

Otter Rivers it doesn't take any time to "figure it out". just tell me what you find.

Cassius Ribhkus Otter, I suppose All Is. No I, nothing and yet everything.

Otter Rivers we're not aiming at finding a new conclusion or a new understanding. what is the truth of what you are? it's not a formula or a goal to be achieved. what do you find to be true that can NOT be disputed?

Cassius Ribhkus Nothing.

Cassius Ribhkus In all honesty, there is no proper word to describe it. Many mystics and Masters have used words to label it, but really, there is no point in labeling. Just being. Aware of the "present".

Otter Rivers many mystic masters can fuck off.

Otter Rivers lol. as far as we're concerned here right?

Cassius Ribhkus Of course! When you see Buddha, kill him

Otter Rivers no actual disrespect meant to any of them, I only disrespect the leaning on other's findings. no matter how holy they seem so let's find out what you see

Otter Rivers all this looking and pointing about what is self... it tends to lend it credibility. let's just relax and see what's actually going on here...

Cassius Ribhkus Like I said Otter, Nothing. There was never a need to find or question simply because there was never a need. I don;t know how else to put it into words as if i do, it's beyond words.

Cassius Ribhkus It's a hilarious paradox.

Cassius Ribhkus Like a dog chasing after its own tail when the tail had always been the dog.

Otter Rivers it's not like you said. what actually is, is not "nothing". that is just a cool word. and I know you can't use words to describe what is beyond words, so this isn't a rebuke, just another pointer. it's not what we say.

Otter Rivers yeah.

Otter Rivers so have you completely seen through illusion of an imaginary separate "me"? if not, what would you say is missing from this guidance?

Cassius Ribhkus Completely, not yet. Hahaha but I know the key is letting go. Direct experience is another key. It's like switching off a fan, it takes time for the blades to halt. Likewise for the Ego fan haha

Cassius Ribhkus But I'm grasping this Truth slowly but surely !

Otter Rivers sounds like your giving yourself a project to work on for years and never complete.

Otter Rivers looking and reporting what I actually perceived now, is there a separate self or not? if so describe. and is what you've described actually a separate self?

Otter Rivers it's no good looking for results to see if you've really seen what is true. if you're waiting for life to become perfectly smooth to the point where you are never tricked again, that's not what i'm looking to help with. the goal is seeing. not what effects the seeing my have your life.

Cassius Ribhkus Otter, give me some time to answer this. In the mean time, can you recommend me a practise that would help me better understand?

Otter Rivers there's nothing to understand. but I understand the craving for some technique. that's conditioned response. wanting to grasp it and "get it". i'll tell you this technique. let go. give up. you're never gonna get it. it wll never benefit you. you can't even do anything about giving up. you cant actually let go since you never had a grip. so just let go.

Otter Rivers no technique will get you where you've always been. techniques will only keep the mind satisfied.

Otter Rivers take all the time you need. but it's not something that takes time. let's talk more tomorrow!

Cassius Ribhkus Thank you Otter! See you tomorrow

Otter Rivers so what do you have to say lately? where are you at with all of this?

Cassius Ribhkus- Otter, I sent you a PM. Let's talk there haha

Otter Rivers- yes, reading back over our conversation I see I may have misunderstood some things you said and reacted slightly incorrectly to what you were probably actually saying. like when you said you'd like a technique to help ou see this more clearly, yes we have direct experience exercises that will help with that. i'll talk to you now in PM.

[CONTINUED IN PRIVATE CHAT]

Cassius Rhibkus- To answer your question, I have stopped questioning, and I know the key is all about letting go. But somehow, I feel like I'm giving up.

Otter Rivers- perfect.
is this seen as a bad thing? if so, where do you feel there is still work to be done?

[C=CASSIUS / O=OTTER]

C- I have mixed feelings about it. Sometimes I feel calm and other times I feel the things I do such as my job and all seems redundant.
.

O- probably because it is redundant.
repetitive
creatures need food and shelter. humans seem to mostly do that by getting jobs and money. oh well. yeah I work too and take transit every day for a total of 4 hours. it is very repetitive.
so if you saw that there was really no "you/me" self experiencing the experience, just experience happening including awareness (not separate: awareness vs. experience) would there always be feelings of calm or is some turbulence allowed?
also, seeing that there is no self, is this proof that consciousness will never fall into identification again? can you know that? i'll tell you, I am often finding that I am in trance of "being me" but I have definitely seen that is just a dream state. so when being me causes enough suffering, looking happens again and it is seen clearly again that it was just a dream. an illusion. it happens faster and faster as time goes by but if I was waiting for permanent calm and bliss before I accepted that I had seen that self is fiction, then I would still be waiting and denying I had actually seen it.
.

C- I suppose if there is no "you/me" I would be calm and turbulences would just be considered as another learning process. An experience of some sort. I find it to be an up and down graph. At times I feel really calm and relaxed and sort of "neutral" about things. And there are other times when I feel really choked, suffocated at times. But I know it is just me strangling myself haha So I just practise letting go. I don't even know if I have seen it. But many experiences have been quite convincing that the consciousness can and will never fall into identification again. I remember going two weeks last Dec simply feeling euphoric and relaxed with life. But I realised nothing is permanent and so I fall back into the repetitive zone again. Like a cycle haha
.

O- right. well we're not trying to achieve an effect here. that is not the reason i'm talking to you.
so tell me where you still find identification as a separate being?
you are the one feeling the ups and downs? you are the one letting go or choking yourself? there is a thing inside that receives the experience and lets go or not? let's find it. then we can ask "then what notices that?"
.

C- I usually find identification to a certain phase in my life as a separate being. It assumes this event as good and that event as bad etc
.I know I'm not the one and I also understand that the Ego latches on to these experiences and perceives it as letting go and choking myself. And of course there were many times I have found myself observing myself doing this.
.

O- 1) is there any control over whether an event is seen as good or bad?

2)what is the ego? is it something?
.

C- 1) Absolutely none. But I do know that I'm free to make the choices but not at all free from the consequences

2) I view the Ego as this thing that views itself as Cassius Ribhkus, age 28, from Malaysia etc and Cassius has a car. But I also know the Ego is subtle in that it makes one feel negative and even positive. It gives a reason for things and meaning.
.

O- ok let's focus on choice then we can come back to ego as a thing.
.

C- Alright
.

O- if there is no you, what is choice? is there a chooser?
.

C- If there is no me, then there is nothing haha no choice or chooser
.

O- I can understand if you say you are free to do whatever. but is there ever any possibility, looking back, that any other thing could have happened?
i have a great exercise for this. i use it a lot. it works wonders. let me copy it here. one moment!
.

C- Hmm I suppose there is a possibility because I doubt this thing we call life is predetermined
.

O- predetermined? by who or what?
i'm only suggesting that we check out is there really anything called choice?
if so there would need to be a chooser.
i'm not saying that creatures don't look at options and do what they do, just that there is no other path that they could go. only the one they do go.
like any organism. responding to circumstances.
.

C- Choice as in, do I go to bed now or later? And I choose, and face the consequence of sleeping early or late.
.

O-
here's the exercise. Take your time. if you do it right, it should take at least 10minutes. please let me know how it goes. answer each part like
1)
2)
3)
take a few minutes and actually do this slowly and watchfully.

This is very over-simplified for a reason.
let's take a good hard look at exactly what is happening with what we call "decision making"!
Answer each part ok? it's a good exercise. it gets right to the point!

1) Sit with one hand on each leg. think about the right hand moving. think "I will move the right hand".
imagine it happening.

did the hand move?

2) now just move the right hand. try it both ways again. watch closely, what was the difference?

3) was there any cause-effect relationship between the thought and the movement? or was there simply a thought,
then either movement or not, then another thought "I did that. I moved the hand."? Do this a few times very slowly.
report only exactly what is noticed.

4) after spending a few minutes on that last exercise, return both hands to resting on your legs.

Now think "I will decide to move my left or right hand".
Wait until you are calm and settled. Watch closely! Now move one of your hands (or both/neither. whatever).

5) did choosing really happen or was there possibly just a thought "I will move my ____ hand" and then this happened or not,
followed almost immediately by another thought "I did that. I chose to do that." ...?
the word "choice" implies that something else could've happened, right?

is there choice happening? what IS choice? is it an idea or does it actually happen?
is there a chooser/agent/decider? did you do/choose/decide it?
or did something just happen followed by a habitual thought "I chose/did that."

6) let's say the right hand moved. looking directly at reality,
is there any possibility at all that the left could have moved that time? could it have been different?
can you know that? if you can say there is such a thing as choice in direct experience, shouldnt you be able to find in direct experience
that something else could've happened?

go through a day and watch decisions as closely as you can without straining. every little decision you notice...
what is really happening?
(also watch this investigation. is there something there that is investigating, or is investigation simply happening?)
so i'll come back some time today and look for your response.
.

C- Alright Otter, thank you!
.
1) No

2) I moved my right hand

3) I thought of moving my right hand and it didn't move and I thought to myself, "Well it didn't move." But when I moved the right hand, it moved, I saw it moved and felt it moved. And then I heard myself say, "Okay, moved it now."

4) I thought to myself and was calm and settled and observed closely. I saw my left thumb twitch. So I moved that. On the second try, I decided not to move any of my hands. I didn't had thoughts about it, I just moved the left hand for the first try and none for the second.

5) I chose it. Yes, the word choice gives an impression that something else could have happened. Yes, there was a decider. I was free to choose.

6) The possibility of the left moving was equally high as the right. But I decided to move only the right. Heck, even both or none would have moved. I can only know when it happens.

Will get back to you on the going through the day part.
.

O- Hey i'm sorry I have been so busy!!! please have a look at this video in the meantime. i'll try to respond more fully tonight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM#t=12
Neuroscience and Free Will
www.youtube.com

O- http://liberationunleashed.com/LU_Recom ... ading.html
some other cool videos about science and self/decision making.
.

C- Beautiful! Thank you so much! Will read and watch these videos and books
.Btw Otter, I'm gonna surrender to "Life" and just see where it goes. Why resist it? Futile attempt haha
.

O- yes! u cant even do anything about the surrendering! it happens when it does. you are not the surrender. this was a huge lesson i had to learn! i mean i knew it for years but when i saw it clearly letting go follows naturally
.

C- The answer was right there, directly staring at me and yet I had to stupidly concoct all sort of questions and imagine answers hahaa
.Thank you Otter, truly appreciate this
.

O- oh you are very welcome. here are some questions for you to help me see if we're done with this talk. (we can still talk but we'll see if this 'process' is done.)
.

C- Alright
.

O- 1) was there ever a self in any way at all in life? if so, what is it?
.

C- 1) No there was never a self.
.
O- what is self?
.

C-Nothing
.Self was just a silly identification to the body.
.

O- 2) what is the illusion of separate 'Me' self? how does it begin? how does it work? how is it maintained?
.

C- 2) The body. It makes one believe that this body is me. It begins when one starts to feel dissatisfied and goes on a never ending quest to seek an illusionary answer. As long as there are questions, this silly "Me" is there.
.

O- 3) how does it feel to see this. is there any difference between now and before we started talking? describe:
.

C- 3) I feel calm and extremely relaxed There is, but also deep down I had always known this was the truth but I was so ignorant to this fact. Now that I have faced it, let go, it feels great !
.

O- What was different before we started talking? Anything different now that was not so before we talked?
.

C- I feel silly and foolish haha I feel that all those questions were unnecessary when the Truth is, this is it !
.

O- 4) what was the last bit that pushed you through? Was there any specific part of our talk that caused you to look and see?
.

C- 4) I just came to a point where I had enough of these questions. Grew extremely tired of it and I decided to let it all go. I remember you telling me that it was repetitive and redundant, and I had been feeling this way before you said it. But as usual, the Self being doubtful, constantly questions. I just grew tired of the unnecessary chatter of questioning.
.Much more at peace now
.

O- 5) do you decide, intend, control any events in life? Please explain. Feel free to rant. I'd rather have that than a simple yes or no answer.
.

C- 5) I can only decide so much and intend this much and probably control a little but even that, I know, if I let go fully, life will naturally take its course.
.

O- 5a) if you can decide, what is it that is deciding? you saw that video about how 'decisions' are made in the brain up to 6 seconds before mind thinks it decided. so is mind ("I") deciding?

5b) Can you choose to let go fully? having chosen to let go, will this decision last permanently?
what is decision besides a thought?
what is "I" besides a thought?!
.

C- Hi Otter, give me some time to reply ya. My turn to be busy this time haha
.

O- UNACCEPTABLE DUDE!
Ahhhhh! just joking. take your time. dont be too long though!
.

is "i" or "me" "ego" separate self anything or just words and thoughts that dont represent anything in actual experience?

can words or thoughts do anything? can a thought think? can thought choose or decide?
.

C- Hi Otters! Sorry for keeping you waiting!
.I'm trying really hard to put to words to answer you. Thoughts cannot choose or decide (tried your right hand moving exercise). Although words and separate selves are necessary (if you take our conversation as an example) they also don't mean a thing.
.But what we think is what we become.
.It works both ways.
.

O- so do you ACTUALLY decide or control anything?
.

C- Yes, I do ultimately.
.But only from the inside (if this is a correct term to use haha)
.I can't control the weather hahaha but I can choose to be happy if it rains or shines.
.

O- is "i' anything other than a collection of thoughts?
.
what is "i" byond thought?
.

C- It's nothing.
.

O- can "nothing" choose, decide, take action?
.

C- Ahh you got me there! Hahaha of course not!
.

O- ok. so outside of mental abstraction do you have any control? do you decide anything? is an imaginary thing (seperate self being) capable of doing ANYTHING?
.

C- Beyond mental abstraction I have no control whatsoever. I can decide on what to do (should I eat this or that etc, do I decide to let go or question?) An imaginary thing is not capable of doing anything at all
.

O- you saw the video about how the body takes action up to 6 seconds before a person says they decided. maybe the body just "cooses" (if you can call it that) it reacts to situations and then "selfing" habits say "yes i did that for this or that reason" so that it can continue to seem like an entity.
even all the bad stuff. like feeling not good enough. like thinking you're a bad person and all guilt... can you see how there's a secret payoff there. a reward? illusion of self as separate from life is maintained in self hate as well as arrogance.
this isn't wisdome from otter to cassius. i'm not saying it as fact for you to accept or debate. it's called a pointer. look where these words point. tell me what u see.
.

C- In other words, if we can let go the need for a reason for anything we do, the illusion shatters, correct?
.

O- the illusion of an "I, We, Me" that can let go disappears...
I am not going to push it. I know it's only a habit that causes this returning to "I" thinking. as if anything that happens needs a doer or something for it to happen to. is there really this separation?

.A lot of it is supported by language. but consider this: just because humans invented some words like "hearing, hearer, heard" does this mean there is really a being that hears as opposed to what is heard? or is it just happening? like when you did the exercise holding your wallet. the sensations just happened. when looking for a controller or something that can let go.... isn't it the same? there is letting go or not. you can't even choose to believe this or not. just tell me what you see.
.

C- The only way I can put it Otter, is that all is happening. No doings
.Everything is one and the same process
.

O- yeah i think i agree! haha.

so please give an example or 2 from life story of cassius recently where it was clear there was no decider or chooser or controller.
.

C- Like now, I'm going on a trip to meet someone whom I have never met via Facebook. It just happened at the spur of the moment as this person is a mutual friend of one of mine.
.I'm just going to see what he has to teach and show and at the same time I'm looking forward to share what I have learnt.
.

O- ah. yes i've done that too. met a few cool people through l.u. in my area.
.

C- But on a smaller scale (if you wish to put it that way) It is when I drive my car. I know where the road leads and I just go with the flow
.And I also know the destination but I enjoy the ride, the scenery and the moments. It's beautful
.

O- yeah i recommend not teaching just pointing at what you see. that's what i'm doing here .questions are great pointers
awesome. i'll have a closer look tonight at our conversation and see if i've missed anything. and please consider it too. have we missed anything? are we done? i mean with the purpose of this conversation. are you "through the gate"?
.

C- Life happens Otters, and there is nothing I can do about it. We just have to enjoy the happenings.

User avatar
otterrivers
Posts: 511
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:48 pm

Re: Otter Rivers and Cassius Ribhkus

Postby otterrivers » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:39 am

Otter Rivers:- All right! some questions from other guides:

1) I would like to see an example of Q5 which is not just a 'spur of the moment' thing, but something that would seem to be a deliberate choice. How there is no I making that choice.

2) He refers in Q1 and 2 to a 'silly identification' and a 'silly "Me"'. Are they silly? Or just illusory? Just what is/was (apparently) happening?
and a third:

3) Cassius: "Beyond mental abstraction I have no control whatsoever. I can decide on what to do (should I eat this or that etc, do I decide to let go or question?)" Could he pls explain this process of control that he believes he has. Is he the thinker?


Cassius:- 1) There is no chooser or doer, only happenings. For example, the other day my friends and I were jamming and I'm terrible in music. While one of them played the guitar, I just had a sudden urge to sing and so I did. Had the "I" been there, it would have told me to stop and feel embarrass about my voice. But when I see the whole process as a happening, it was an amazing moment.

2) They're silly because they're illusionary. In actual fact, there is nothing (no thing) happening except the Self placing perception, labels and assumptions on happenings.

3) I'm not the thinker or the doer, I am the thought and the happenings itself. To be honest, I have full freedom to do what I want, and I am in control (always have been). But the Self tells me that I am not in control and that I should question. So doubts arise over my free will. When in actual fact, I had always been free.
.

User avatar
otterrivers
Posts: 511
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:48 pm

Re: Otter Rivers and Cassius Ribhkus

Postby otterrivers » Sat May 31, 2014 10:19 am

CASSIUS:
. You just showed me duality that still exist within me. Which means, I have more work to be done! (owh boy, hahaha)




.

...




Otter Rivers


3/16, 2:05am


whatever. duality doesn't go away. you just see it's not really true. there is everything! there is no void. it is only a void of a something that IS the everything.




.

the words make a very simple thing seem confusing.




.

...




just consider. please look over our recent talk a few times at different times over the next day or 2. see what comes up. mount your best argument. I don't want you to agree. I only want honesty without citing habitual thought as proof. thanks cassius.




Cassius Ribhkus



Hi Otter, my apologies for the delay in messaging.




.

Took me two months to think the question over.




.

Otter, I have no total control in life. White flag, I surrender. I'm done haha




.

The I is but an illusion created by the mind. I give up. I don't know anything, i don't have to. I didn't need to. I'm done bro




.

Sorry if it sounded a little rude. But i'm just saying what is in my head and i feel relieved saying it. Like taking a huge shit after a week long constipation.




.

Phew!




.

...
April 27




Otter Rivers


4/27, 4:27pm




Otter Rivers



It doesn't sound rude. . So what is it that gives up?




.

Can you choose to surrender?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


4/27, 4:44pm




Cassius Ribhkus



I gave up haha




.

What else can I do, but surrender, Otter




.

...




Otter Rivers


4/27, 4:54pm




Otter Rivers



I see but you said you have no control so can you surrender because you choose to? Or is it something that happens?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


4/27, 4:59pm




Cassius Ribhkus



In my case, I just gave up. Pointless. I'm tiring and worrying myself. Placing all these unnecessary ideas into my head. Giving reasons and expectations. I chose to give up because i really have no control. I also realised it was a paradox because when i surrendered, it was when i fully accepted things as they are. I realised there was never a need to surrender or control, simply because it was a stupid idea put into my head.




.

...




Otter Rivers


4/27, 5:00pm




Otter Rivers



Ok. You see why I ask. I know you may not mean the exact words you use but there is almost no perfect way to say it. "I chose to give up because I have no control" lol. You see?




.

So what is the "I" when you say "I chose to surrender"?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


4/27, 5:03pm




Cassius Ribhkus



The Ego. I also realised it is necessary. But never let it get over the head hahaha




.

...




Otter Rivers


4/27, 5:06pm




Otter Rivers



Haha. What is it then that let's the ego up to the head or not??? Lol




.

How tricky




.

What I really want to know is did you relinquish control or did you see there never was control?
Was it ever anything other than believing a thought that says "there is a me that is doing things" ??




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


4/27, 5:22pm




Cassius Ribhkus



I relinquished control. There is control at the individual level. But beyond that, no control whatsoever




.

I hope i word it correctly hahaha




.

There is a me. But this me has to stop questioning and struggling when in actual fact nothing at all is taking place. Simply letting go (I'm looking at this metaphor; floating in water) and let life flow through. No control simply because there was never really a need for one.




.

...




Otter Rivers


4/27, 5:28pm




Otter Rivers



WEll Then we are exactly back where we started! Lol is there an individual? What is an individual? What is a "me"?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


4/27, 5:31pm




Cassius Ribhkus



There is an individual. But it is so minuscule. This individual forms the bigger picture. Like a hair strand on the body. I do not know how else to explain. The me is just a necessary tool for daily communication etc but otherwise, it does not exist at all




.

...




Otter Rivers


4/27, 5:33pm




Otter Rivers



Ok




.

So are you saying there is not really any actual separation between this me and anything else?




.

Don't get frustrated with my questions if you can help it. It might take a lot more questions before I'm sure we are clear




.

Does a hair on a body really have any choice on how to grow? Have you ever REALLY had any choice at all? If so can you please explain it in a way that proves it?




.

Rather than saying "yes of course" have a look. Describe what happens with choosing. How do you do it?




.

...
May 3




Otter Rivers


5/3, 12:41am




Otter Rivers



I'm looking to see if you believe you are the limitations you describe as the little insignificant me




.

...
May 7




Otter Rivers


5/7, 10:34am




Otter Rivers



Are you tired of talking to me? Feeling frustrated? I can only keep pointing out what I see. Identification as the chooser. The surrenderer. Identification with the idea of a limited little 'me' that shares the limits of the mind and body. If you want me to do this properly you'll be happy that I only speak what I see and don't just agree with you to keep you from feeling frustrated. Or is it that we are getting a little too close to an area you are not comfortable questioning? That there is not a me that is separate from anything? And no anything else that is separate from what you think of as me. If you can talk to me honestly from where you are at now we can continue to flow downhill. No matter where we are there is always the opportunity to flow downhill effortlessly. The only effort is in questioning. Having a look at what is true. If you speak with me we can keep moving. if you are avoiding answering me ask yourself why. Tell me why. Because wherever you are at is the perfect point to look from. I can meet you where you are and we can continue flowing towards the inevitable.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/7, 10:36am




Otter Rivers



Even if you see me as the problem this is completely fine. Don't be afraid to say so. We can flow downhill from there too




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/7, 10:40am




Cassius Ribhkus



Haha Otters, my apologies for not replying. Was mulling on ur question.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/7, 10:41am




Otter Rivers



Ok I sensed some frustration. Was I incorrect?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/7, 10:41am




Cassius Ribhkus



No you were not. I was slightly frustrated haha




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/7, 10:43am




Otter Rivers



Ok. Yes if you think "i got it!!!" And I question your conclusions, I see how that can be frustrating. Take your time but not too long. It doesn't require a lot of deep thinking. Just what do you find when looking now?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/7, 10:43am




Cassius Ribhkus



I do have a choice. I have total freedom to choose how to react towards events. But I have no control over them. It is how i view them, determines the outcome. In actual fact, nothing really is taking place. Just the mind placing perceptions.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/7, 10:44am




Otter Rivers



Deep long pondering thought is a great chance for egoic thinking habits to hijack the boat and steer back to safe waters lol




.

Yes. Something happens. Then thinking say "I chose that"




.

What is this "I" that chooses? We can't say much about choice without knowing the chooser. What is it?




.

What is it that you say has absolute freedom to choose?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/7, 10:48am




Cassius Ribhkus



This is I is but the medium or conduit




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/7, 10:49am




Otter Rivers



Explain more. Too vague. What is it that is the conduit?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/7, 10:49am




Cassius Ribhkus



Owh man Otter, this is frustrating. We keep going back in circles




.

I get it and then I don't. Damn




.

I dont know which is which now hahaha




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/7, 10:50am




Otter Rivers



We can't just accept this fuzzy outline of what "I" is and then just move on while basing everything upon it




.

We aren't going in circles. We are going to the center then you pass by it and I point you back again and again




.

When you say "I" explain in your direct experience now what that is.




.

Don't answer now




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/7, 10:53am




Cassius Ribhkus



The Present moment?




.

Because, i pondered hard, the only thing genuine is the present moment.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/7, 10:54am




Otter Rivers



Try this today. Don't avoid "I" or "me" thinking. Do it MORE. try to really raise that feeling of "ME!!!" So you can see it clearer. Bring it closer so you can describe it.




.

Cool. But continue this exercise today ok?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/7, 10:56am




Cassius Ribhkus



The I just the body and the identity given to it.




.

A point of reference of some sort. A beginning and ending point




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/7, 10:58am




Otter Rivers



Don't answer with opinions or theories. Describe only the basic facts of what is found. No thoughts about it. Describe the feelings. In the body. Where in the body? You can tell me what thoughts arise with this "myself" feeling but dont tell me what you think about the thoughts or what they must mean. But don't answer now. Take this practice with you for a day at least. Get as clear as possible.




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/7, 10:59am




Cassius Ribhkus



Okay Otter. Will get back to u soon on this one




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/7, 11:01am




Otter Rivers



I'm not saying your current answers aren't the right words. But feel it beyond words. Don't look for a desired outcome. Don't try to prove your (or my) previous conclusions. Look for only what is true.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/7, 11:06am




Otter Rivers



Magnify the "me!!! Cassius!!!!" feeling. Draw it closer and closer so you can study it. Or follow it down the rabbit hole. Where is it? What is it? Describe it like you are studying a mysterious secretive animal. Lure it out of hiding. Draw it close or follow it. Do both. Haha. This one thing that your WHOLE LIFE centers around.... How can you be content to not know it perfectly? Like you have been serving a master you have never seen or met. You have no proof he exists. You have the right to demand he show himself and speak with you!!!




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/7, 11:07am




Otter Rivers



Ok bye Cassius. Don't be frustrated! It's a great cause for joy! No more bullshit, only what is true!




.

Talk to you later




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/7, 11:07am




Cassius Ribhkus



Thanks Otter




.

...
May 11




Cassius Ribhkus


5/11, 11:32am




Cassius Ribhkus



Otter, I'll tell you the truth. I tried what u said but i can't seem to find where this "I" comes from. I'm beginning to think it's a word, a grunt of some sort where I identified it as myself. Owh man, I'm tired racking my brains over this bro. I really am. I give up. I just want to let go and get off this pointless question pondering. Not to care anymore and just fucking live, you know.




.

...
May 11




Otter Rivers


5/11, 3:37pm




Otter Rivers



Perfect!




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/11, 3:40pm




Otter Rivers



I wasn't giving you that exercise in order for you to find something. Just to see it can't be found. Well you can easily find what you are but there's nothing you are not. So there is no you! There is thinking that gravitates toward identifying but have you found any ACTUAL point of separation?




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/11, 3:43pm




Otter Rivers



It's like it's just arbitrary. You could say mind is you but not body. Or body is you but not the next person. Or there is identification saying this group of people I belong to is me but not those other people. Or there can be identification with human as opposed to non human. ...which one of these is the actual truth? Are any more true than another?




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/11, 3:44pm




Otter Rivers



And if you've seen that I is just a thought, you can know for sure that is not you right? A decider? A doer? If I is a thought.... How can a thought decide or choose? ...or think?




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/11, 4:08pm




Otter Rivers



So I ask again can you choose to surrender? Can you choose to not choose? What is it that chooses? Or is choice just a useful idea?




.

...
May 11




Cassius Ribhkus


5/11, 9:29pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Hmm since there is no chooser, only the process of choosing and surrendering happens.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/11, 9:47pm




Otter Rivers



Or something happens and it gets habitually labelled as choice.




.

Like the hand choosing exercise a few months ago. Can you prove there is choice?




.

There seem to be multiple options presented. One of them really happens. Then thinking gives the credit to some chooser that can't be found in reality. Can you look at that and prove that anything other than the actual outcome could have happened?




.

I'm not trying to get you to agree with me. Just what do you see. If you only agree I may test you. . Tell me what you find when you look.




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/11, 9:53pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Haha Otter, i can vaguely remember the hand choosing exercise. Can u remind me again? I will try it and answer ur question

[SOME VOICE CONVERSATIONS HERE: EXERCISES ON INVESTIGATING CHOICE]


Cassius Ribhkus



Please don't give up on me Otter.




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/22, 3:14am




Cassius Ribhkus



I have recently started reading Jed Mckenna's books. However, although I do get the idea of No Self, i don't fully grasp it. I keep trying and trying and yet I keep missing the point haha




.

I realised it was due to alot of the inbuilt programming and beliefs I had installed in my hard drive (my brains)


OTTER:
Don't worry too much about finding non self. It might seem weird for an LU guide to say that, but I'm just not asking you to deny reality. I only ask what is self? And any answer you give, I will have you investigate further. We are done when you fall into that space of seeing that self, non self, any belief, it is there but it is empty of any absolute exclusive truth.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/23, 6:06am




Otter Rivers



You said a while ago that Self is "A point of reference of some sort. A beginning and ending point". Yes. But can you see how fluid and impermanent/indefinite this dividing line is? Like we identify with this at this time and that at another time. We see our neighbor as separate yet us and our neighbor are "me" when considering someone from another country. Identification is just a thought pattern.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/23, 6:08am




Otter Rivers



I won't say there is no self except as a pointer. Like Any words; it is not ultimately true. Words are like wind. They can only blow in one direction at a time. But the truth is just air. No direction.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/23, 6:14am




Otter Rivers



Self and no self are not really opposites. Not two separate issues. Like this phone I am typing on has a left side and a top side. There is no decision to make whether the left is true or the right is true. And even it I cut it in half each half will still have a left and right side. To say there is no self is true if you think of a self as an entity, separate from it's surroundings. But self happens right??? Maybe if we look at it as a verb rather than a noun, it makes more sense. Like a conditioned thought pattern of "this is me, that is not". So try calling it self-ing. Instead. I have had bad internet trouble for the last couple days and it is finally working now but it is 6am. I'll have internet access at work though. In about 8hours.




.

...
May 23




Cassius Ribhkus


5/23, 10:17am




Cassius Ribhkus



Hi Otter, thank you for coming to my rescue! Hahaha




.

Okay, what is self?




.

Can I use an analogy? (I think I can best describe it in analogical sense haha)




.

Self is basically a page in a book.




.

"I am page 4!"




.

or "I am page 1!"




.

But in truth, it's just a fucking book.




.

The pages are necessary as without them, you wont have the book.




.

And without the book, there wont be pages.




.

Each need one another. But it doesnt matter what page you're on because it's just a book in the end.




.

I get what you mean now




.

I see where you're getting at.




.

...
Tuesday




Otter Rivers


5/27, 2:35am




Otter Rivers



So is there a "me" outside of thought? Can you choose to do anything? Can you choose not to choose? If "me" is a thought, is it possible for a thought to take action or make decisions?




.

...
Tuesday




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 6:58am




Cassius Ribhkus



Haha not at all. Because a thought, is a thought. Like vapour!




.

So, no. A thought can't take action or decide. And there is no "me" outside of thought.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 6:58am




Otter Rivers



So can you surrender?




.

What does that even mean?




.

U know? This living that was never separate may stop producing vapor/thought(me/self) of control, but there never was control. This was another vapor to begin with though right?




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 7:06am




Otter Rivers



It only makes sense to be able to choose (even to choose to surrender and stop choosing. So surrendering to not choose is a choice too lol) if you define what you are as sharing the defined limits of a mind and body. These limits are true (mind is only capable of thought and bodies are limited to the outline of skin. They are subject to relativity. Some things are bigger and other things are smaller. And they run out of energy and die.) but the identification in thought that says "i am these limits" is completely arbitrary. It's like drawing a line at some random place in the sand and saying this is the true boundary.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 7:09am




Otter Rivers



And because everyone we know always drew the line here we say it must be the right place to draw it. And there is no reason not to draw a line for reference but to believe that is ultimately true is the great illusion. When you hear of emptiness teachings, that's what they mean. Not that there is nothing, just that there is no actual separation outside of thinking and that the thinking places limits arbitrarily.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 7:09am




Otter Rivers






.



...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 7:09am




Otter Rivers



I'm talking a lot. I hope that was not an overload. So what do you say to that?




.

...
Tuesday




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 10:58am




Cassius Ribhkus



What is surrender? Otter, personally surrendering is when you witness the thoughts arising but you don't surf it. You see them pass by, acknowledging their presence but at the same time keeping in mind of the present moment. It is a choice.




.

In that sense, we have total free will.




.

Which is comforting




.

I can't stop myself from thinking hahaha But I can choose not to follow it.




.

Infact, like u said, trying to stop thinking itself is a limit that u set for urself. A choice.




.

...
Tuesday




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:24pm




Otter Rivers



What is it that can choose not to follow thought? See? We keep coming back to this gate. You say there is no Me except as a thought. And that a thought can't choose. Then you say you can choose not to follow a thought. A thought can make a decision not to follow a thought? See how silly? Or am I misunderstanding you?




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:24pm




Otter Rivers






.



...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:26pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Hahaha!




.

Your emoticon skills are getting pretty good




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:27pm




Otter Rivers



Thanks. I try. ....or...wait! ....I mean trying just happens! ....whew... That was close! Lol




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:28pm




Cassius Ribhkus



No you're not misunderstanding me




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:29pm




Otter Rivers



So do you see my point? You see why I keep questioning your statements about making decisions and choices?




.

Here's a new way to say it I just thought of: choice is a plan. A plan is a thought.




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:29pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Then who makes the decisions if the thought can't make one?




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:30pm




Otter Rivers



Planning just happens. Must there be a who?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:30pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Ahh I see where you're going




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:30pm




Otter Rivers



What does "who" even MEAN?! Lol!




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:30pm




Cassius Ribhkus



If planning happens, and if there is no who, then it doesn't matter the outcome of the plan. Correct?




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:32pm




Otter Rivers



"It doesn't matter" is another thought! What matters besides what you think matters? It's the same with any word like seeing, doing etc




.

Planning...




.

The point is not about results. Just seeing this: is there really a separation between doer and what is done? Between what is sensed and the sensing if it?




.

Just because humans invented some words does this change reality? B




.

The thing that makes this tough is that we are taught to think in words.




.

Words are like wind. They can only blow in one direction at a time.




.

We have to create a duality just to make a point.




.

I'm not going to try to convince you with logic. I thought we already did this exercise but let's try again. Pick up any small object around you. Let me know when you have done so




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:35pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Alright Otter, I've grabbed my wallet nearby.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:36pm




Otter Rivers



Again. Haha it was your wallet last time too hahaha. It's ok though. Doing this again is helpful.




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:36pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Hahaha yes it was




.

It was the nearest!




.

Okay, I decided to switch it with a book




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:37pm




Otter Rivers



Sense everything about the wallet. Don't call it "wallet" because that reinforces the assumption hat there is a "me" and a "wallet".




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:38pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Thick, smooth cover, blue colored cover, pages smell really good, fonts are easy to read and see, soft pages




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:38pm




Otter Rivers



Feel the tactile sense of it. Is there any separation between the feeling and what is felt? (Don't think about it, just explain he direct experience) If so, find this exact line of separation.




.

Your last answer was all thoughts about the experience. Categorizing based on learned separations.




.

Don't describe the wallet. Answer whether there is a division between sensing and sensed.




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:40pm




Cassius Ribhkus



No, I couldn't see separation apart from the visual sense, my fingers on the book cover




.

In terms of feeling and touch, it's one.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:40pm




Otter Rivers



(Sorry I am direct but not meaning to be strict. Just cutting to the point lol)




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:41pm




Cassius Ribhkus



No worries Otter, sometimes I do need to be whipped haha




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:41pm




Otter Rivers



Look at it. Is the seeing separate from what is seen? Or is it one happening?




.

Seriously. Not the right answer, just what u see




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:43pm




Cassius Ribhkus



No, it is not separate.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:43pm




Otter Rivers



Now listen to a sound. Is the hearing separate from what is heard? Is there a "hearer" necessary just because this word exists?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:46pm




Cassius Ribhkus



No, it is not separate.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:46pm




Otter Rivers



Hear a "closer" sound and a "further" sound. In your direct, un- interpreted experience, Outside of any learned practical science, does one thing sound further than the other? Further from what? Is it your direct experience that the hearer is between the ears? Or is this another learned practical science?




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:46pm




Otter Rivers



I'm not saying what is true. Just questioning any assumptions of what "must be true"




.

To get you to sense experience directly rather than through the filter of what you have learned.




.

(Are we having fun right now? Hahaha)




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:48pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Ahh! No distinction!




.

The "closer" sound and "further" sound is just sound!




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:50pm




Otter Rivers



Ok so try this again with "doer", "doing", "what is done". Is there any distinction here? Or do you find these to be classifications you have learned for prActical purposes, but really not based on experience?




.

Right? Closer or further to what? Cassius's head. And is this "you"?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:51pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Cassius who?




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:52pm




Otter Rivers



I'll be direct. I bet you find that there is no direct experience of further sound or closer sound. Just a flow of experience/sense




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:52pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Yes, a flurry of sound and sight




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:52pm




Otter Rivers






.



...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:52pm




Cassius Ribhkus



We keep labelling it, "Further" "closer" "nearby" "far away" etc etc




.

"You" "Me" "Cassius" "Otter"




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:53pm




Otter Rivers



Right. And this serves a practical purpose you can use to navigate life. But it is an illusion!!!!!!!




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:54pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Like a map!




.

And once you know your way around, you can discard it, correct?




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:55pm




Otter Rivers



I'm not supposed to say things, only ask questions to point your attention. But we have circled around this gate long enough. So from now on if I say something as if it was truth I will trust that you will scrutinize it. I don't want you to be convinced. I want you to KNOW




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:55pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Roger that, Otter




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:55pm




Otter Rivers



Is it correct? You tell me brother? But I will hint again that there is no need for conclusions such as "this is, so that means..."




.

If I ask "is the window open or closed?" You just say what you see. Not "the window is open. Oh! So that means...." Lol.




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:57pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Hahaha gotcha




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 8:58pm




Otter Rivers



So look at your previous question "if a thought is not making the choice, then what is making the choice?" Answer yourself.




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 8:59pm




Cassius Ribhkus



The process of choosing happens!




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 9:00pm




Otter Rivers



Sure. Plans are made. They come true or not but we can only know what is experienced.




.

I'm glad you helped me think of this "planning" metaphor. I will use this!




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 9:01pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Hehe no worries Otter. Thank you too!




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 9:01pm




Otter Rivers



A choice is a plan! Also choice is a thought that looks at what happened and says "I chose that" or "I didn't choose that" haha. See how sticky it can be? A thought claiming ownership of experience.




.

Stop for tonight




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 9:03pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Yes, very sticky. I suppose if we remove the doer from the equation, the doing is not fully enjoyed (or experienced).




.

*if we don't remove




.

But again, even this is a thought




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 9:05pm




Otter Rivers



(It is 9pm here lol) go with this experiment for a day or more. No rush. Get a feel for it. Is there anything other than the experience? Even the thoughts and feelings we label as "feeling separate". Are these anything other that part of the experience? Is there somehow a "me" that is separate or outside of what is sensed that can look at sensation?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 9:06pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Thank you Otter, you definitely helped me out in identifying and scrutinising.




.

Alright, will give this homework a shot!




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 9:06pm




Otter Rivers



Any time you remember to check, see if there is a separation anywhere. See if there is noticing vs noticed, or if it is one thing happening.




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 9:07pm




Cassius Ribhkus








.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 9:07pm




Otter Rivers



Yeah. I feel you have a light enough heart so you can enjoy the investigation. Don't push or make an extreme effort lol




.

Just be curious like a scientist! If you aren't really REEEEAaly curious, what is the point?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 9:09pm




Cassius Ribhkus



*don's a scientist suit* Yes sir!




.

Thanks buddy




.

If you ever make a trip to Malaysia, you know who to call to be your tour guide.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 9:10pm




Otter Rivers



Yes. Like a zoologist who goes to live with the apes. Just check what is found without a preference for an outcome. You'll do great.




.

Yeah I'd love to!!! Maybe I'll have more money some day haha




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 9:13pm




Otter Rivers



Good to know you. Goodnight for now. (See these words in the screen? Is there a seer, seeing, and what is seen? Or is it just a variation of contrasting color happening as one with the noticing? Haha. U see the point? It's not about re attaching the seer and what is seen. It's just seeing they were never separate! We just get taught to live as if this was true!)




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 9:14pm




Otter Rivers



Sorry. I said I was done. Couldn't help that last one though. Haha




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/27, 9:15pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Hahaha the seeing process happens. Then the reading/deciphering and later on the contemplation process. Haha you make a swell guide. Gnite Otter!




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/27, 9:15pm




Otter Rivers



When you see how foolish we become to believe this separation you may have the biggest laugh of your life. Or like me, it may be a calm "ohhhhh... Ok..." Haha




.

Goodnight




.

...
Thursday




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 3:30pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Otter! Seer, seeing and seen is all happening in one go!




.

In fact, it is even silly to label this as seer, that as seen and the process as seeing hahaha




.

It's one whole damn thing! Like clouds in the sky.




.

Why the need for separation? That is a cloud and the blue stuff is the sky. And that's a bird. It's like watching a movie and taking in everything.




.

And not just focusing the attention to one subject or object in the movie while the whole scenario is taking place.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 6:28pm




Otter Rivers



So now when you say the words "I, me, myself" what do these words mean to you?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 6:30pm




Cassius Ribhkus



I see them as ownership. Labels of some sort.




.

*taking ownership




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 6:44pm




Otter Rivers



What is doing the labeling?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 6:44pm




Cassius Ribhkus



The Ego/Self




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 6:45pm




Otter Rivers



Which is.....




.

?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 6:45pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Nothing! It's vapour, illusionary.




.

Like.. smoke on the water




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 6:46pm




Otter Rivers



Just thoughts about something that isn't there




.

What is doing the thinking?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 6:47pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Nobody. Only the thinking is taking place.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 6:47pm




Otter Rivers



Ok! U got it!




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 6:47pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Yes!! :))))




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 6:48pm




Otter Rivers



Was there ever a self? Or did you get rid of it?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 6:48pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Otter, there was never a self, how am I to get rid of something which was not there in the first place?




.

What a paradox hahaha




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 6:49pm




Otter Rivers



And what would get rid of it if there is no self? Hahaha




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 6:51pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Nothing haha It's like asking, hey can you vacuum this clean carpet. It would be utterly silly to vacuum a clean dust free carpet hahah




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 6:52pm




Otter Rivers



So you say this illusion of separation that claims ownership as separate from what is experienced is a vapor. Nothing that ever existed outside of imagination, right?




.

So then tell me, how does this illusion start?



.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 6:57pm




Cassius Ribhkus



It starts when we follow it down the rabbit hole. When we start piling excuses, beliefs and ideas after ideas on it. Atleast, that is how I remember it starting. By viewing it for what it really is and just allowing the fleeting thoughts to pass through, like watching a movie, we allow it to unfold before us. And we view it without worrying about the good or the bad. Without.. perception and prejudice (i hope i used the right terms).




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 7:17pm




Otter Rivers



How does it feel to see this? To finally see there is no self separate from life? That there is no "me" that can manipulate life because it is only a thought that there were two things? (Even the surrendering. Like "I choose to surrender to life") ....now that you see this how does it feel?




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 7:17pm




Otter Rivers



Please give an example from the last few days.




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 7:19pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Otter, I'll give you an example of what happened moments earlier. I went out to the balcony, lit a cigarette and man, it felt so good! Felt the wind blowing, felt it on my arms, I closed my eyes and I felt the most free ever. Like, there is no need to worry. That feeling you get when you're on a roller coaster. You fucking enjoy that ride!




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 7:19pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Fuck what happens. This is it, the ride, man!




.

Come what may, let's see what takes place! That excitement! The jitters, nervousness mixed with enthusiasm! That feeling you get, when you laugh silly and all you feel like doing is just jumping and doing somersaults!




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 7:22pm




Otter Rivers



What was the last bit that finally pushed you through? What finally got you to see? What happened?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 7:23pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Tiredness really. That whole overthinking and overclocking the brain for something so trivial!




.

The answer was there, staring right at me. Even now it stares as I type.




.

It's here in the now! Wtf was I even doing? lol!




.

I found out that there was never a self. Then I asked, so what is real?




.

This! The present. This is the only real deal




.

Nothing else. Nothing more.




.

It's like i just had a weeklong constipation and i finally took the biggest, glorious shit ever hahaha


Hahaha sorry bro, I had no other better way to say it




.

But really, thank you so much!




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 7:30pm




Otter Rivers



No it's a good metaphor




.

So can you ever decide, choose, control events?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 7:35pm




Cassius Ribhkus



The deciding and choosing happens but nothing is in control.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 7:36pm




Otter Rivers



Yeah we can call it deciding but we only can know what happens and it isn't a decider separate from the situation is it?




.

Like I pointed out earlier. The "choosing" is planning right? And the planning is just thinking.




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 7:41pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Ahhh okay in that sense no, you can't. It just happens.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 7:41pm




Otter Rivers



thought happens that says "I am choosing" (making a plan or attributing responsibility for what happened to this thought 'ME' as if a thought could take actions)




.

Choosing is just a word. Like "me" or "mine" or "doer" or "hearer, heard". It's ok to use these words. The point is just not to take it literally. As if there must be something real that these words point to.




.

Like just because he idea exists it must be based on reality




.

The idea




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 7:45pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Yes, for example, I can choose not to go to work. Or go to work. Regardless, what happens, happen happens. And it has happened. Correct?




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 7:46pm




Otter Rivers



Right. There is only a habitual thought hat says "I am choosing (planning) this" and then later "I chose to do that"




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 7:46pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Which can lead to "Owh dear, why did I even choose this??"




.

Correct?




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 7:47pm




Otter Rivers



As if to claim it. So as not to appear out of control. Like a thought could ever have control or do ANYTHING!




.

See how much childish denial is involved? How much wasted energy?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 7:47pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Hahaha yeah!




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 7:47pm




Otter Rivers



Yeah.




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 7:50pm




Otter Rivers



I want to have guides look at this again. But having seen finally, beyond just the idea (haven't you?) that there is not two things happening here but one flow.... This is the gate! So unless I'm missing something, I would like to say welcome! But to be safe, (and to allow access to after care groups) I will have other guides scrutinize our conversation.




.




Otter Rivers


5/29, 7:51pm




Otter Rivers




.

So do you see that we weren't just needlessly walking around in circles chasing your tail? You see the reason we kept coming back to this one simple point? It seemed so frustrating didn't it? But you get it now?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 7:54pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Sure thing Otter!




.

I do




.

Thank you!




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 7:55pm




Otter Rivers



What was the main thing U weren't getting?




.

What finally clicked?




.

I ask to help make it clearer to anyone else reading this




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 8:00pm




Cassius Ribhkus



The whole seer, seeing and seen thing. Today morning, I had sat at the cafe and directly asked myself. Stared down at the whole scenario; my hands on the table, the table, and the cafe in the background.




.

Then it clicked, oneness.





.

And then, I asked myself, if I am nothing, the I is insignificant, then what the fuck is true?




.

I took a good look. Observed a waiter passing by. Then it made sense; everything is in constant motion.




.

And I have no absolute control over it. Fear was just a fucking veil placed on my head, masking the beauty of life itself.




.

Now I understand why they call it "veil of illusion". Makes perfect sense.




.

Nothing changed, everything is the same. But the intensity of experiencing life is even more. It's much more.. authentic I would say. Much more real. I had the best cup of tea today morning




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 8:12pm




Otter Rivers



Since it is so recent for you and you remember exactly the feeling of not getting it and the contrast now of "getting it" can you give some words of advice or some helpful words for anyone else who may read this?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 8:14pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Trust yourself and the situation you're in. Enlightenment is really just a huge word used for something so simple, genuine and profound. It's like a rebirth of some sort!




.

...




Otter Rivers


5/29, 8:18pm




Otter Rivers



Is there anything you could say to someone else being guided and feeling stuck that you wish you could go back and say to yourself a month or two ago?




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 8:19pm




Cassius Ribhkus



Give up! Hahaha Stick to the present moment and observe it real hard. Every answer is there.




.

But be brave to look. The Truth is so offensive but it's genuine.




.

...




Cassius Ribhkus


5/29, 8:25pm




Cassius Ribhkus



I also understand that it does not necessarily follows a required step but here's how mine went; realising no self then seeking truth. The third and final step is when you accept it for what it is and heave a sigh of relief and say, "I'm done!" Then you can do whatever the fuck you wanna do haha


OTTER:
ok i'll get back to you soon!


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests