Request for a guide, please.

[JonathanR]

Hello, my name is Jon. My whole life has been profoundly influenced by buddhism but mainly by little corners of brilliance or synchronisity rather than the long lists of ritual observations. I have tried 'letting go' quite a bit and with fascinating results, a mixture of vastness and fear, in case I fall for ever. A very big part of me would like to fall for ever.

If you feel you can help me to go further please let me know.

Many thanks.

[Xain]

Hi John

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.
I may be willing to guide you. Perhaps I could assist you to go 'further'.

I have tried 'letting go' quite a bit and with fascinating results, a mixture of vastness and fear, in case I fall for ever.

That is interesting. What did you do? What did you experience?

Can you tell me what it is that you would be seeking in our conversation together, and what it would mean (for you)?

Best wishes to you
Xain ♥

[JonathanR]

Thanks for your time Xian,

There was a great teacher, Jamyang Khyentse. When I was seventeen I read a tiny booklet he wrote on meditation. His essential advice was just to sit and 'let go'. There was a photograph of the guy in his lama hat sitting and grinning like the sun. I tried 'letting go', just sitting in my bedroom. I felt the presence of vast energy that I could not easily sit with. This energy seemed explosive so i became uncomfortable. What was i supposed to do with it?

I formally became a buddhist and in the process of adopting long lists of rituals that were compulsory, partly lost sight of the simple sun-like radiance of letting go. Thankfully I saw through the rituals and broke free.

I am 53 now but i still let go whenever I can. Other things have happened. I've noticed claws in my mind, like great talons sunk into my shoulders and gripping. Then the idea has just popped up that these talons need to be loosened, to stop grasping, just stop grasping. And then they have opened. The relief of just not grasping, not holding on has been great. But hard to know if it's permanent.

To answer your question about what I want from our conversation, Xian, I would wish for guidance beyond my self. I do not have any expectations. I have had enough of ego. If it's trully unreal, an illusion or dellusion, i want to see through it once and for all. Life is short after all.

I am very pleased that you have responded and if you decide to help me I will take that seriously. Many thanks. Jon.

[Xain]

Thank you for your reply, Jon.

His essential advice was just to sit and 'let go'. There was a photograph of the guy in his lama hat sitting and grinning like the sun. I tried 'letting go', just sitting in my bedroom.

Interesting. Was his advice also (perhaps) to let go of the need/desire to let go?

I do not have any expectations.

Good. This is important.

All our discussion will focus on is one thing - For you to make the realisation that there is no separate self, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be. That the words 'I' and 'me' are simply thoughts - Ideas.
What happens 'after' this is unknown. For the moment, just concentrate on this one area.

This is simply 'a chat' - A talk with a friend if you like. It's not a test, no-one is judging you, and there are no right or wrong answer. All I ask is that you be totally honest with me, and try to speak from what you currently believe is right (rather than from what you may have read, or someone may have told you).

A few guidelines which will assist us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
(Scroll down the page)

If you need to you can use the QUOTE function like I have done above to quote some of your replies - It may make it easier to read through the dialogue.
A guide for this function can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Xain ♥

[JonathanR]

Thanks for continuing with this conversation, Xian.

Unfortunately I just spent an hour writing a reply to you and tried to preview it, whereupon I found I had to sign in again, after which the reply was lost. So I don't have long now.

But I'll be brief. Thank you for spelling out the conditions and disclaimer. I accept and agree with everything you have said.

His essential advice was just to sit and 'let go'. There was a photograph of the guy in his lama hat sitting and grinning like the sun. I tried 'letting go', just sitting in my bedroom.

Interesting. Was his advice also (perhaps) to let go of the need/desire to let go?

I am sure that you are right about this. Letting go of letting go. This threatens the ego. Or, threatens the ego so long as one imagines that there is an ego to be threatened. But this is my experience sometimes, of feeling threatened in the face of enormity.

Many apologies for a very brief reply. I have to get back to work now. I am delighted to be able to converse with you.


Jon.

[Xain]

Many apologies for a very brief reply. I have to get back to work now. I am delighted to be able to converse with you.

Likewise, Jon - Good to hear from you again.

Unfortunately I just spent an hour writing a reply to you and tried to preview it, whereupon I found I had to sign in again, after which the reply was lost.

Ah - Yes.
To remedy this, highlight your entire reply with the mouse and use CTRL and C to copy all the text into the clipboard memory. If the reply is lost and you have to log in again, simply log in, click reply, then with the cursor in the reply box hit CTRL and V to paste all the text from the clipboard memory back into the text box.
Something to get into the habit of doing :-)

First thing to establish for a base to begin with is what you currently believe you are.
For the moment put any previous study into this subject aside, and focus simply on what you believe is true.
What is 'I'? What does the word 'I', or 'me' point to?

Xain ♥

[JonathanR]

Hello again Xian,

Thanks for the clipboarding advice. I'll do that next time.

First thing to establish for a base to begin with is what you currently believe you are

I was listening to a podcast recently, an interview with a prominent liver pathologist from the USA who happens to be a Zen

Buddhist. He did a really excellent and compelling job of describing his work. There are all these cells and bacteria and DNA and so on and so forth, that cooperate together to form the human body, but there is no no actual person 'there'. This is what I believe is going on. Fizzing bits of universe but no 'me'.

What is 'I'? What does the word 'I', or 'me' point to?

I is some kind of fuzzy familiarity with a me-shaped nothing that seems to lie somehwere at the centre of 'my' actual experience. To

be honest each time I look it is very clear that nothing real occupies this position. Nobody is in charge. The very idea that there is a

fixed skipper at the helm of my life is absurd. Because if there is a definite me, where is he? I don't know. Neverthess there is the

ingrained habit of attempting to refer back to 'I', as if there were a hub of some sort. But it's always a fuzzy, indistinct, implausible hub.

'I' points to something that is supposed, for the smooth running of the human world and your own sanity, to be there, but isn't.

Essentially, there is a hollowness right where most of us think there must be a core. This strikes me as fairly creepy and can worry

me until the thought arises that if there is no core to being then there is nobody to get hurt.



Jon.

[JonathanR]

Dear Xain, my sincere apologies for mis-spelling your name.

Jon

[Xain]

Dear Xain, my sincere apologies for mis-spelling your name.

No problem at all - It is pronounced the same as 'Zane'.

There are all these cells and bacteria and DNA and so on and so forth, that cooperate together to form the human body, but there is no no actual person 'there'.

Ok. So is it quite clear that the body that appears in experience right now is not 'you'?
Can you give an idea of how you know this is the case?

I is some kind of fuzzy familiarity with a me-shaped nothing that seems to lie somewhere at the centre of 'my' actual experience.

Err . . . that sounds a little unusual. How can 'nothing' be 'me-shaped'?

There is experience right now. These words on the screen are being seen.
Is it clear that they are not being seen by 'you'?
If this is the case, how is this known?

Essentially, there is a hollowness right where most of us think there must be a core.

I have a tendency to take what you write literally and must ask you to detail exactly what you mean.
You state 'hollowness' and 'a core' - Are these things you see, feel, etc?
What exactly is this 'core' that most of us think is there?

Xain ♥

[JonathanR]

Essentially, there is a hollowness right where most of us think there must be a core.

I have a tendency to take what you write literally and must ask you to detail exactly what you mean.
You state 'hollowness' and 'a core' - Are these things you see, feel, etc?
What exactly is this 'core' that most of us think is there?

I don't actually know. I am sorry. It goes in and out of focus. No, I don't see or feel these things via my physical senses. In an effort to understand my relationship to life I have resorted to intuition. I spoke metaphorically. This intuitive sense is beyond my understanding.

There is experience right now. These words on the screen are being seen.
Is it clear that they are not being seen by 'you'?
If this is the case, how is this known?

Oh dear. Yes. That sucks. The words are being seen by me. So something is present in the moment, quite obviously.

How can 'nothing' be 'me-shaped'?

Just my way inept of trying to describe the impossible

There are all these cells and bacteria and DNA and so on and so forth, that cooperate together to form the human body, but there is no no actual person 'there'.

Ok. So is it quite clear that the body that appears in experience right now is not 'you'?
Can you give an idea of how you know this is the case?

Oh my god. It's the sound of one hand clapping, isn't it? This makes m brain hurt.


Apologies for not having answers.


Jon.

[JonathanR]

Hello Xain,

I may have been tired last night because I couldn't concentrate on your questions.

Ok. So is it quite clear that the body that appears in experience right now is not 'you'?
Can you give an idea of how you know this is the case?

Somebody could come along and chop me up into pieces and at no point would a 'me' fall out. Nevertheless I have long habit of assuming that 'I' exists and of associating bodily sensations with 'I'. Right now I cannot say that the body is not 'me' and I can't say that it is 'me' either.

Jon.

[JonathanR]

Please forgive the several entries.

I had a thought Xain. I don't know whether you would think this helpful but I work as an artist (painter). This is where a lot of my time and attention goes. Perhaps it's not relevant to our conversation but thought I should mention it in case it is useful? Painting matters to me.

Best wishes,

Jon.

[JonathanR]

Xain

I don't think I was able to properly consider one or two of your questions last night. I was tired and tried to think too hard about answers. But I want to give them further consideration now.

[quoteThere is experience right now. These words on the screen are being seen.
Is it clear that they are not being seen by 'you'?
If this is the case, how is this known?][/quote]

They are not being seen by me since 'I ' don't really exist. How this is known is a mystery.

Essentially, there is a hollowness right where most of us think there must be a core.

I have a tendency to take what you write literally and must ask you to detail exactly what you mean.
You state 'hollowness' and 'a core' - Are these things you see, feel, etc?
What exactly is this 'core' that most of us think is there?

I don't see and feel these things with my eyes or external senses. I don't know how I perceive the hollowness and the core. Nevertheless this is something I notice. By the core I mean an idea of a solid 'I' or self. By hollow I mean that if you really look for it there is nothing at all,

How can 'nothing' be 'me-shaped'?

Quite so.



Jon

[Xain]

Hi Jon

Please forgive me - There may be one or two days delay in getting back to you due to work pressures.
I will write again when I can - Hopefully on Sunday or Monday.

Xain ♥

[JonathanR]

Hi Xain,

Many thanks for letting me know. As it happens I am engaged in quite a bit of work pressure this week-end too.

Jon.