Just seen through the self!

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Henrik70
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Just seen through the self!

Postby Henrik70 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:34 pm

Hi I am Henrik,

Not to long a go I finally began to see through the self after years of seeking. I was communicating with a realized person and could let go of a lot of ideas of what awakening is.
This person is not teaching for some time and while I felt I saw clearly what was pointed to I didn't feel it was established in my whole being. I was somehow expecting more or a shift to happen.
Lately I have had small insights that just came and went and I was surprised they had very little impact...is it the truth if it comes and goes?
I began to read David Bhodan's Lazy Man's Way to Enlightenment and one day I could see that nothing but an empty aware presence (like space) could be trusted. The voice in the head is not me no matter how true it speaks. I have always felt it was strange that we are empty and not at all a person or mind (allthough we are that too)...but now it was quite clear, and it was so natural. Feels very natural and a bit strange at the same time.
I just don't understand how some people seem to see that we, as one essence, have manifested everything... I mean I have no memory of that and no knowledge of how that can be done...what is meant by that?
Also...as far as I can see I don't know emptiness or awareness in deep sleep...how can it be the unchanging?
I have a few more questions but lets start with these. What else is good to look into at this stage?
It would be great to hear from you!
All the best, Henrik

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Bill
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Re: Just seen through the self!

Postby Bill » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:17 pm

Hello Henrik.

Welcome to LU. Glad you're here.
From reading through what you wrote, it looks like you have several questions you are seeking answers to.
Hopefully we can be of help to you in your quest.
Lots of questions usually indicate more is being sought.
This forum here is really for those who have no big questions left.

Our other forum "Guiding Area" is for those who might still have a lot of questions left.
Can you please read what is below this line (it's our opening post in this 'Home' section) and
see if it fits. Please comment on it.

Thanks!
Bill
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you have already seen through the illusion of a separate self and experienced the liberation that our guides are pointing to, the Home section of this forum is the place to start your journey with us. If you feel inspired to join this international network of volunteers, please share your story of awakening here.

You are free to share this story in any way you see fit, but the following questions may be helpful:

-How did you wake up? What happened?
-What changed? What is different after seeing through the illusion?
-What is the self?
-How would you explain this to someone who is interested in this, but not yet familiar with the topic?
-What brings you to this forum?

Once you have shared your story, you'll be welcomed by some of our guides, who will, if necessary, ask some further questions. If everything is clear, you'll be directed to the appropriate groups on Facebook, where you can meet other members of the growing LU community and continue sharing with everyone there.

Please remember that this is not an ordinary discussion forum and we only allow one thread per person. Thanks.

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed!

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Henrik70
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Re: Just seen through the self!

Postby Henrik70 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:51 pm

Hi Bill,

Nice to hear from you!
Let's see if I have that many big questions or if they are more of a lingering of mind stuff. You can probably see better than me!

I saw through the self when communicating with an awakened person on skype. It was very clear then but has faded a Little and that is the reason I started looking again and I found this site which looked very good.
The only change that happened was that I wasn't quite as easily fooled by the self sense and some small insights began to occur...though they didn't leave much of an impact as far as I noticed.
My true self was seen to be like an aware space that is ever present and the assumed self was seen to be thoughts and contractions in the body. I was the Impersonal and what I used to think was me , the personal, was more 'out there'!
Mind comes in and says 'How can this be the unchanging when it disappears at sleep?'
The other question about how all this came about (apparently as essence I'm doing it) is not very important to me but seems to pop up when the mind wants to doupt.
I'm aware that this is a forum for serious seekers and I'm very interested in ending the seeking now.
Hope I covered it and posted in the right place!
Sincerely Henrik

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Bill
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Re: Just seen through the self!

Postby Bill » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:14 am

Thank you for your reply Henrik.
I'm not an expert by any means, but it sounds as if you've had an experience of seeing no self which maybe resulted in a state for a while.... now that's faded.
Since you say you would like to end the seeking... I'd like to move your thread over to our 'Guiding Area' and start with you as if you had just come in... Whatever you've done in the past has been part of what's taken place, many have all kinds of teachings, teachers and other experiences prior to being here.
I'd like to ask you further questions to help you LOOK to see if there's any remnants of self left and clear up any questions you might have. You will actually be who clears them up... hopefully I can point in such a way that does this.
You sound like you are very ready.
Thanks for writing on what you've done.. it's helpful to know where people are on things..
Some of this could seem redundant to you but just bear with it if you will. I don't want to miss anything.

Please take a look at the intro page of LU here, it contains our disclaimer and a short video too.
Watch the short video on 'looking', it's very helpful...
also read through the FAQ on that page.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Some guidelines that I would like your agreement on:

1) Agree to post daily or email if you are not able. You can post more often if you want.

2) Please set aside any other spiritual practices during this inquiry.

3) I will ask questions and you answer.... mostly just answer without deep thinking..
just look at what comes up..
Answer to the very best of your ability at that time
Try to avoid 'spiritually correct' answers. If you know what I mean.
And answer all questions given... they do build upon each other.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and are in agreement, we can go ahead and get started.

What is your reaction when I say that the you that you think you are is not real?
'I' is not the manager of life, not the controller, not an observer, not awareness.
There is no I/you in real life, none.... zero.... 'I' is just a thought that points to other thoughts — nothing real...
That there's just life... flowing freely... always.
Just what is. Here. Now.

Bill

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Henrik70
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Re: Just seen through the self!

Postby Henrik70 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:53 pm

Hi Bill!
I have now read the FAQ and watched the looking video. I agree with the disclaimer and guidlines!
I'm ready to start!
'I' is not the manager of life, not the controller, not an observer, not awareness.
There is no I/you in real life, none.... zero.... 'I' is just a thought that points to other thoughts — nothing real...
That there's just life... flowing freely... always.
Just what is. Here. Now.
That's just great. I felt so much relief when reading that. I have been identified with being conscoius or consciousness, for a long time, probably didn't want to dissolve completely, but now being absolutely nothing felt very good and relaxing. I know this is not about feeling good, but there was relief.
You know how they say 'you are this alive aware space' and similar things, and I began to see that, notice the aware space, after a lot of looking. But recently began to wonder if I haven't made myself into another object. Aware presence being what 'I am'...the aware space, and although no-one, still being something aware. Which means if awareness goes, I go! And that is what I notice in deep sleep.
So, I am finally OK with being nothing at all, and open to the fact that I don't know at all what I am.
It is clear though that I have no self!
I'd say that's where I am now!

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Bill
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Re: Just seen through the self!

Postby Bill » Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:02 am

Hello Henrik
Ive been traveling the last day or so
am finally back home now. Let's get started now.
That's just great. I felt so much relief when reading that. I have been identified with being conscious or consciousness, for a long time, probably didn't want to dissolve completely, but now being absolutely nothing felt very good and relaxing. I know this is not about feeling good, but there was relief.
You know how they say 'you are this alive aware space' and similar things, and I began to see that, notice the aware space, after a lot of looking. But recently began to wonder if I haven't made myself into another object. Aware presence being what 'I am'...the aware space, and although no-one, still being something aware. Which means if awareness goes, I go! And that is what I notice in deep sleep.
So, I am finally OK with being nothing at all, and open to the fact that I don't know at all what I am.
It is clear though that I have no self!
I'd say that's where I am now!
You had mentioned in the previous post about a 'true self'
If we have a true self, does that mean there is also a false self?
What about a higher and lower self... you hear those words also...
If you look, can you find any of these in reality?

We want to look at thoughts particularly in this dialogue.
Our thoughts are huge in our experience.
If you just look at what is arising right now,
Can you tell me where your thoughts come from?
Where do they originate?
Where do they arise?
Are the thoughts yours?
LOOK for yourself here with honesty.

Also, in looking at the thoughts, do they all start out with an I attached,
or does the I attach to the thought somewhere?
In other words, are they all about you?

Bill

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Henrik70
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Re: Just seen through the self!

Postby Henrik70 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:50 pm

You had mentioned in the previous post about a 'true self'
If we have a true self, does that mean there is also a false self?
What about a higher and lower self... you hear those words also...
If you look, can you find any of these in reality?
Hi Bill,
I usually think of false self as the assumed self...the sense of self we often refere to as our self. The one I have seen is just a thought and assumption. The true self would be our real nature...that I can't define...I don't quite know what it is. I am aware that these are just labels that don't point to real things.
I dont think there is a higher self and a lower. Seems like conceptual divisions.
I cant find any selves if I look...I see thoughts (that some would label higher or lower, true or false) and I feel sensations...but no self as such!
Can you tell me where your thoughts come from?
Where do they originate?
Where do they arise?
Are the thoughts yours?
Thoughts seem to just appear and dissolve. Cant say where they come from.
They arise in awareness...cant say it's my awareness...just awareness...being aware of thoughts.
If I look for an owner of the thoughts I just find another thought or a sensation in the body, but no owner or person in there,
Also, in looking at the thoughts, do they all start out with an I attached,
or does the I attach to the thought somewhere?
In other words, are they all about you?
There is no I atached to thoughts...but an I thought claiming there is an I having thoughts. They seem to refer to a self in here by habit...but I cant find one! Just thoughts and sensations.

I really enjoy this investigation!

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Bill
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Re: Just seen through the self!

Postby Bill » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:17 pm

Hello Henrik,

About the thoughts again...
Look at things you think are yours.
Your car, house, computer, family....
We think of these as ours.

How does a car get to be from 'just a car' to 'our car'?
(hint - I'm not talking about the buying of it)

What about clothes, computers, houses....
How do they become 'ours'?

Try this small exercise. Look at the computer you're using now.
Is it more correct to say, it is A computer? or MY computer?

Can you attach a computer to a self? If so, how do we do it?
How do we possess something? What is the process? How is something made 'ours'?

**********************************************************
Just let this in... you can comment on it or not.

"Its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple."

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Henrik70
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Re: Just seen through the self!

Postby Henrik70 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:33 am

Look at things you think are yours.
Your car, house, computer, family....
We think of these as ours.

How does a car get to be from 'just a car' to 'our car'?
(hint - I'm not talking about the buying of it)

What about clothes, computers, houses....
How do they become 'ours'?

Try this small exercise. Look at the computer you're using now.
Is it more correct to say, it is A computer? or MY computer?

Can you attach a computer to a self? If so, how do we do it?
How do we possess something? What is the process? How is something made 'ours'?
Hi Bill!

There seems to be a built in system in the body to take ownership. Without ever questioning it 'I' have 'owned' things all my life. The self ownes a body, this body, and all the ideas, feelings and matrial possesions of the body. It's never questioned if there is a self in there in the first place...and if there isn't how is something owned. If we dont talk about the buying of it, there is just a thought saying this is mine. And it says that because it believes that there is a self there that takes ownership.
Ownership needs an I (the 'owner') and objects to own. 'I' is just athought and 'I' need to own things...it makes 'me' feel secure. It's all about the phantom, the assumed self again! No self-no ownership! Not real but seems to be some natural insticual thing for survival.
Its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
Even if I see that I is just a thought, and I do that often, I'm surprised how strong the impact of thought and the sense of I still is! I can see thought doesnt think...just one thought after another!

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Bill
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Re: Just seen through the self!

Postby Bill » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:18 am

Hello Henrik...
If we dont talk about the buying of it, there is just a thought saying this is mine. And it says that because it believes that there is a self there that takes ownership.
Ownership needs an I (the 'owner') and objects to own. 'I' is just a thought and 'I' need to own things...it makes 'me' feel secure. It's all about the phantom, the assumed self again! No self-no ownership! Not real but seems to be some natural instinctual thing for survival.
So what we're looking at here with the computer, and other possessions, is that things become 'ours' only through our thoughts. Like your clothes for example. It's solely because of your thinking that the clothes become yours vs some other clothes that are not yours. And this is the case for any other possession too.
Yes thoughts seem to arise from somewhere, nowhere and everywhere. We can't really pinpoint where they come from. But come they do... again and again and again. It seems like we have control over them but when we really look, we do not. We can't stop thoughts from coming. We don't know what the next thought is going to be.
if you look carefully, you'll see that most all thoughts are 'self' centered. Dealing with me and mine or some
relation to that.
Our thinking then is what we want to look at. Its what has been shaping our reality.

Do you see how literally all thoughts are stories?
We see, a label is put on what we see, and a story is developed.
Every thought is essentially past tense in its nature.
Describing something that has happened in the past.
The only thing that is real is what is happening right now and here.
We need a willingness to see prior to labels being put on what we see.

We've believed that the self is needed.
But no self is needed to function at all.
You've been taught since you were just a young boy that yes, there
is a you and your name is Henrik. We have never looked at this and
questioned whether its really true or not.

OK, we've taken a quick look at thoughts.
Now lets look at the body and see if there is an owner or entity controlling it.
Lift one of your hands. either one.
Move it to the right. Now move it left. Look with your eyes what is happening. Did a self move the hand?
Or did the hand just move?
Direct observation. Move it again. Check it.
Which is more true, the hand moved, or a self moved the hand?

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Re: Just seen through the self!

Postby Henrik70 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:23 pm

So what we're looking at here with the computer, and other possessions, is that things become 'ours' only through our thoughts. Like your clothes for example. It's solely because of your thinking that the clothes become yours vs some other clothes that are not yours. And this is the case for any other possession too.
Yes thoughts seem to arise from somewhere, nowhere and everywhere. We can't really pinpoint where they come from. But come they do... again and again and again. It seems like we have control over them but when we really look, we do not. We can't stop thoughts from coming. We don't know what the next thought is going to be.
if you look carefully, you'll see that most all thoughts are 'self' centered. Dealing with me and mine or some
relation to that.
Our thinking then is what we want to look at. Its what has been shaping our reality.
Hi Bill,

I can see clearly now that things become 'ours' in thought, and that thoughts just appear and disappear with little (if any) control on our part. There are moments when 'I' can decide to think a perticular thought and that gives me the impression that I have some control..question is rather...does a self do that, and I don't see one or find one.
Yes, thoughts seem to be by nature self-centered, and the believer in them is another thought.
Do you see how literally all thoughts are stories?
We see, a label is put on what we see, and a story is developed.
Every thought is essentially past tense in its nature.
Describing something that has happened in the past.
The only thing that is real is what is happening right now and here.
We need a willingness to see prior to labels being put on what we see.

We've believed that the self is needed.
But no self is needed to function at all.
You've been taught since you were just a young boy that yes, there
is a you and your name is Henrik. We have never looked at this and
questioned whether its really true or not.
Yes, I can see that all thoughts are stories, they are like labels put on What Is, colouring What Is. I must admit that it is sometimes quite difficult so see what is beyond the labeling of thought. Thought has become my self and it does all valuation, and is constantly talking about things believing it's who I am and that waht it says is important for 'me'. Still I can often see that no self is there, only thought, and I am not that.
Now lets look at the body and see if there is an owner or entity controlling it.
Lift one of your hands. either one.
Move it to the right. Now move it left. Look with your eyes what is happening. Did a self move the hand?
Or did the hand just move?
Direct observation. Move it again. Check it.
Which is more true, the hand moved, or a self moved the hand?
I did this and it is much more the hand that moved than a self!

Bill, I am going away tomorrow for two weeks and I wonder if we could continue after I come back, and if there is anything I can do while away? I'll bring these notes! I read David Bhoden's book Before we started but I suspect that I shouldn't mix teachings now! I really appreciate your guiding me!
Sincerely Henrik

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Bill
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Re: Just seen through the self!

Postby Bill » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:38 pm

Have a nice vacation Henrik.
Yes we can pick it up when you come back.
If you wanted something to read, download the Gateless Gatecrashers book
from this page http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_Books.html

It's probably better not to mix a bunch of different teachings at this point.
After this is done, you'll be able to look at any teaching and tell right away
whether it points to what you would call 'truth' or not. At least for most of
us that's the case.


As you're gone, just let this be looked at whenever in comes to mind:

While you move around in your normal activities daily, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around.
Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc.
Is there a self or an entity living your life?
Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life?
Big difference.
Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.
Report back what you find when you're back.
See you when you're back.

Bill

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Henrik70
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Re: Just seen through the self!

Postby Henrik70 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:31 am

Thanks Bill, see you then!

Henrik

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Henrik70
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Re: Just seen through the self!

Postby Henrik70 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:07 pm

While you move around in your normal activities daily, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around.
Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc.
Is there a self or an entity living your life?
Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life?
Big difference.
Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.
Hi again Bill. I'm back!
I did look many times during the vacation at what seems to move the body. I can only find thoughts...and thoughts about a self. And a sense of self...like a feeling that is hard to pinpoint but which is nevertheless taken to be real or about a real me. The strange thing is that I see no self yet the system keeps going on as if there is an entity or self there to protect and cater for...and refere to.
Many say keep comming back to this no-self space, the awareness that is prior to thought and you'll soon see your true nature or get established in the truth. But, I figure, if I really see that there is no self (no santa Claus) then I don't have to keep looking at the truth again and again right? I suspect I haven't seen properly for some reason...no shift! What could be the problem?

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Re: Just seen through the self!

Postby Bill » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:41 am

Hello Henrik,

Hope all went well for you... glad you continued to look while you were gone.

Yes there is a sense of self.
Did you expect that to somehow not be?
Seeing through the self and also feeling the sense of self are not in-congruent.

Let's look at your expectations of what you thought this would be....
Can you bring out here and write down as close to what you expect liberation to be?

Get all of your thoughts out on what you are expecting.
No matter what they might be.
We have been studying and reading and accumulating ideas on this for many years.
Let's see what you've come up with.


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