Topic for New Insights

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Canfora
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Topic for New Insights

Postby Canfora » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:46 pm

Hi Hancock!

Let's see if this new thread works for us both.

You said:
I want to see clearly; I want to see beyond my story.
When you say that you want to see beyond the story of Hancock are you expecting that seeing that you don't exist - that the separated self it's an illusion - will make the story stop, get better, change the way you would like the story to change?

If you see with clarity, without a doubt that you don't exist, will the content of the story matter as much?

Let's look to what makes the story seem real. Can you please look and tell me when is the awareness of the story happening? In the past, in the future or always now?

Don't answer from what you think it's true. Look and see - in experience - when are stories really happening.
Give me some examples from experience that show that you're seeing what I'm pointing at, please (you don't need to write about very personal subjects).

Looking forward to read what you find! (and hoping that you can see my posts...).

Sandra

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New Insights
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Re: Topic for New Insights

Postby New Insights » Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:48 pm

Sandra,

Thank you.

YOU
"When you say that you want to see beyond the story of Hancock are you expecting that seeing that you don't exist - that the separated self it's an illusion - will make the story stop, get better, change the way you would like the story to change?"

ME
For me, the story does not need to change; the story is just a story. This story of mine means nothing to one of my closest cousin; he says, you did not do anything. The story means something to me only because I am attached to it; I have in wired that I made a mistake, did something wrong, am a bad person. Seeing clearly would mean that I see the story like my cousin; something happened, but it didn't happen to me. My cousin once said; life is living, and you are following life. Hence, you could not have done anything. I want to hold on to this vision of life; when I do I am able to live free, with the content of the story being exactly what it is; it just doesn't mean anything to me.

YOU
"If you see with clarity, without a doubt that you don't exist, will the content of the story matter as much?"

ME
Most assuredly, the content would not matter as much; it would be a story of what I believed happened, but there would not be a me that did it. I would see the story in neutrality; I recognize that something might have happened but that is all.

YOU
"Let's look to what makes the story seem real. Can you please look and tell me when is the awareness of the story happening? In the past, in the future or always now?"

ME
Awareness of the story happens when I have sensations or thoughts that I did something. The thoughts press on my mind and I feel sad, or even feel that I was stupid. So thoughts make the story feel real. Sensations do the same thing; they make the story seem real. I feel uncomfortable, and I trace these feelings to what I believe that I did. The awareness of the story is happening now, even though I might recall a past event. I might also imagine a future of failure, which I bring into now. I have created these unfortunate loops in my thinking. I have learned this way of being over decades. I some sometimes break free, and then I allow circumstances to drag me back into this familiar pattern. I realize that I imagine all of this is presently

YOU
"Don't answer from what you think it's true. Look and see - in experience - when are stories really happening.
Give me some examples from experience that show that you're seeing what I'm pointing at, please (you don't need to write about very personal subjects)."

ME
Example 1: I spoke to my mom and she made a comment about a past event. I immediately felt remorseful; I began thinking: I made a mistake. I wish I hadn't done that. I then called someone who was involved, and the story of me being wrong grew louder. I regretted the turns in my life. Those two conversations brought my assumed past into my present, and they made me feel sad.

Example 2: I went to a program and felt ignored by some of my peers. I felt inadequate. I thought: If I was a different type of person I would be welcomed. I felt: they think they are better than me. I assume: they had a better past.

Example 3: I felt someone was unfair to me around money. I became angry; I wondered if I had chosen well when I brought this person into my life. I again reviewed my past, and wondered about my choices.

What do I really want? I want to be able to see this crap and, without reservation see it for what it is. It's a story with legs, but it has nothing to do with me.

Hancock

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Canfora
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Re: Topic for New Insights

Postby Canfora » Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:22 pm

Hi Hancock! Good, you can see my post. Thank you for your answer.

I understand everything your saying in your post.
When I say that I understand, what I'm saying it's that I also had and have thoughts like yours. They make perfect sense and the majority of the persons that live in this world would also understand what your saying.
But *understanding* is relying in thought content. And relying in thought content make us believe in what's not real.

You described what you think it's true not what's really true. There's a big difference between what we think it's true and what we can see it's true. It's the difference between thinking about life and seeing life, thinking about eating an apple and eating an apple, thinking about going to Paris and really going there.

Everything that I'm going to say in this thread has a unique goal: make you look to your experience and see what's real, make you experience life without the story and also with the story - because *the story* is also life, in the sense that it can be experienced, like you said.

Am I making you feel confused or are you seeing what I'm trying to point at? Anyway nothing that I say can be of use to you if you don't take the time to make it experientially yours. And the only way I know to do that is by looking.

Let's move on - what I say above are just words. Don't think to much about them.

Please answer all my questions looking to what's real here-now. The answers may seem more than obvious but don't jump right away to what you think it's the right answer. Take the time to look and see what's happening in experience - what's here, what's being experienced. Answer not from thought but from seeing.

Can you see any of the stories that you talked about in your examples happening?
Can a story happen outside this moment?
What's a story made of?
Can thoughts make stories real?

Sandra

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This site often logs you out while you write a reply and you can lose what you have written. I suggest you write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send. Or you can copy the text before pressing the Preview or Submit button.

To quote my words you need to use the Quote Reply button on the left when you enter in edition - not the Quick Reply one at the middle in grey. Place the mouse cursor were you want the Quote to appear, then go to my post and underline the text you want to quote and clic the option Quote that appears in the top right of my post.

You can also learn how to use the quote function here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

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Re: Topic for New Insights

Postby New Insights » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:02 pm

Hi Sandra,

I understand. What I hope to achieve from this dialogue is to know what you are saying in my way of being, and not just know from my intellect. My intellect likes those words; there is a difference between thinking about eating an apple than actually eating one. There is a difference in what you are thinking, your story, and what is actually happening.

I’ve looked, as you say, and here are my reflections on your questions:

YOU
Can you see any of the stories that you talked about in your examples happening?

ME
The ideas in my stories are not actually happening. The ones in the past seem to have happened, but probably not in the same way I remembered them. Someone said or did something, and I said or did something. Everyone said or did something, so, if someone is guilty, everyone is guilty. All have sinned, said the carpenter, and come short of the glory of God.

My story of these events have been translated into me being the guilty party. Me alone. That’s not actually happening; it’s my story, and it is not real. I made them up in my head, in thoughts, and I react to them as real. They are actually just as real as the picture on the screen. I saw a movie last night, and reacted to the scenes; the events looked real enough but they were make believe. My mind did not care; it translated what was happening as real events, and my body reacted to them.

YOU
Can a story happen outside this moment?

ME
The story cannot happen outside this moment because the story is not real. The story needs this moment, and me conjuring up the event, in order for the story to play. Te story is not a real event, just like the movie. Still, like the movie, it feels real, and my body can react to the scenes. The problem is that I have come to believe the story; I never really learned to recognize the story for what it is: It’s just like a movie. This is a result of bad training; this is a result of my conditioning. I have lived life believing that the story is real. I have unlearning to do.

YOU
What's a story made of?

ME
The story is made up of thoughts. They are mental images. The thoughts assume a life of their own. One thought builds on another thought, and another, and another. If I am not careful I can build a mountain out of a molehill. I’ve seen others do it to. They take the reaction of a person, construct a story about it, and soon, their mind is on fire. They need someone to help them put it out; quiet the mind. So, the story is constructed with thoughts; no thinking, no story.

YOU
Can thoughts make stories real?

ME
Thoughts can make stories feel real, and one can react to them as if they are real; however, the thoughts cannot make the story itself to be real. It’s like a magician on stage; the woman is sawed in half, says my thought. I saw it! But I now it’s a trick; yet, I can’t doubt what I saw. It’s like the movie last night. They had a death scene; I turned away from the dying person’s eyes. I was in a movie, for goodness sake; yet, I believed in the death scene. I did not want to see death simulated in that way. It seemed that real to me. So, thoughts cannot make a story real. A thought, nevertheless, can make a story seem or even feel real. You gotta get to the point where you see a story for what it is. It’s just a story.

Thanks, Sandra,
Hancock

Question 1
Is there a way for me to go to our email thread in LU upon my logging in? AS it is now, I have to go to the email notice I get, click on the link, to get to the thread.

Question 2
I pasted my reply into the message box. I tried to quote but evidently I did not do it right. How do you quote when you paste into the message box?

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Canfora
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Re: Topic for New Insights

Postby Canfora » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:16 pm

Hi Hancock, thank you for your answers!

I read your conversation with Space again today. I noticed that he made you an amazing question: Where is Hancock?

That is also my question to you: where is this Hancock you talk about in your posts?

Try to find this person that you think you are, the person who thinks about the past, the person to whom all the thoughts belong. The person that can be guilty of something.

At the time your answer was: I'm obviously doing this incorrectly. How do I do it right?

You do it right by looking for the answer. If Hancock is real then it can be easily found in reality.

If I ask "where is your computer?" you wouldn't think twice, you would just point to the computer. What's being asked it's exactly the same. You talk about Hancock and Hancock story. Can you see Hancock in reality?

So, where is Hancock? Find it and describe it to me, please.

Use the senses, the same way you would do if you where trying to find a cat that you knew was an uninvited guest in your house.

Looking forward to read what you find,
Sandra

*****************************************************************************************************************************************
Question 1
Is there a way for me to go to our email thread in LU upon my logging in? AS it is now, I have to go to the email notice I get, click on the link, to get to the thread.
You can do login and select the option "View your posts" that appears on the left of the menu – the same place where you click to make "login" and "logout".
Question 2
I pasted my reply into the message box. I tried to quote but evidently I did not do it right. How do you quote when you paste into the message box?
Don't worry with that, I like your solution, it works well.

Anyway, one way to quote is by selecting the text you want to quote with the mouse and use the "Quote" option in the menu that appears in the top of the post, where the format options are. If instead of pressing Submit you use the Preview option, you can see how your post will be. If you want to make corrections you can go back to the place where you have the text and make changes, if everything its OK press Submit.

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Re: Topic for New Insights

Postby New Insights » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:46 am

Hi Sandra,

YOU
So, where is Hancock? Find it and describe it to me, please.

ME
I see the point of the question. I also see the answer: Hancock does not exist. I see this in my intellect. I have read some, and have learned some of the lingo. I realize that this is not enough. It's obvious that I am not my body-mind. I am not my thoughts. I am not my stories. Hancock does not exist as a separate entity.

What I don't understand is whether I should know more than this. That is, I don't understand how to go beyond this idea as just another belief. I don't see how to bottom out, so to speak; how to let the sense of me dissolve. I don't know what I am holding on to. I don't know how to cross over once and for all. Does this make sense?

Hancock

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Canfora
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Re: Topic for New Insights

Postby Canfora » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:03 pm

Hi Hancock and thank you for your honesty.
I also see the answer: Hancock does not exist.
You see the answer or you think this is the right answer? If your answers are coming from thinking, not from looking, then you are lost in the path.
I see this in my intellect. I have read some, and have learned some of the lingo. I realize that this is not enough.
Yes, you're right! Drop the lingo and what you've learned. In fact, drop everything that can be dropped :)
Look at reality with fresh eyes. What's real, what's here before thought appears, before thought labels reality?
It's obvious that I am not my body-mind.
When you say that it's *obvious* are you talking about how thoughts say this and that about this investigation?
Thoughts are like sirens in the ocean, they sing their song. Let the song just be there, it's not your song. You don't have to believe thoughts. Just look at them and see if their content is pointing to something real (this is something that needs practice...).

Can you please tell me why it's obvious that you are not the body-mind?
I am not my thoughts. I am not my stories. Hancock does not exist as a separate entity.
How do you know this?
What I don't understand is whether I should know more than this. That is, I don't understand how to go beyond this idea as just another belief. I don't see how to bottom out, so to speak; how to let the sense of me dissolve. I don't know what I am holding on to. I don't know how to cross over once and for all. Does this make sense?
Yes, it makes sense from the perspective of a you.
Your thinking about this. Thinking won't help you look.
I hope you don't let thoughts discourage you. Trust this process instead of thoughts. Try to relax. You're going well! I will propose you some exercises to help you focus and understand what I mean by look.

Please answer the two questions in bold and the ones below, drop the others, they're just observations.

If I say that Hancock doesn't exist and never existed,
What is experienced?
What thoughts appear, what is felt?
Please describe.

Sandra

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Re: Topic for New Insights

Postby New Insights » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:50 am

Sandra,

Thank you for your encouragement to look.

YOU
Please answer the two questions in bold and the ones below, drop the others, they're just observations.

ME
Everything I said above came from my head. I'm like a student, and I like the stuff I've learned. The knowledge, as you imply, only keeps the story of me going.

YOU
If I say that Hancock doesn't exist and never existed,
What is experienced?

ME
I've been thinking about this since I saw it earlier today. I don't resist the suggestion that there is no me; I welcome it. I'm not interested in creating a better version of me. There is nothing to hold onto; nothing to save.

YOU
"What is experience?"

ME
It's like I'm dead to the experience; I have no feeling in this regard. Nothing happens when you say, "doesn't exist and never existed."

YOU
What thoughts appear, what is felt?

ME
Helplessness. It makes sense that there is no person anywhere, even though bodies exist. We humans have learned the we are persons but we might be the only creatures who think this way. The cat just lives; the deer just runs, even into traffic. Life happens. I accept it.

But this me feels helpless because "I" am holding on to something. I entertain the possibility that I am not what I thought I was. I am not a separate persons; life is, and everything is happening. Only the thought: It's happening to me is a problem.

I'm stuck here....

Hancock
Please describe.

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Re: Topic for New Insights

Postby Canfora » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:20 pm

Thank you for your encouragement to look.
You can do it, if you couldn't you wouldn't be here. Just bear with me, even if your reaction to my words and requests is one of "I already know this, this doesn't make sense, this is too simple, I'm not going anywhere" and try to relax and be patient with this process - if you already are doing that, sorry for all this unsolicited advice - I'm trying to "read" where you are at the moment and what I "get" it's not always accurate. I also make stories :)
Only the thought: It's happening to me is a problem.
Could it be that this "me" only exists as a label? As a thought?

I would like you to do a writing exercise to look at the way labels keep the illusion in place. Ilona talks about this and explains the exercise in her blog: http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html

Please post the result of doing the exercise here and answer the questions she makes in the article:

Compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other?
If so, which one?
What is here without labels?
Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Looking forward to read what you find,
Sandra

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Re: Topic for New Insights

Postby New Insights » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:44 am

Sandra,

Thank you for this insightful article. Here is what I see:

QUESTION 1
Compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other?

ME
The I is not necessary; it claims and experience and makes it personal. Experiences just happen, and they do not require an I/me/mine to be real. I, for convenience here, sat in my room and this is what I found: sitting on the sofa, looking at a picture, drinking a cup of tea, hand on ankle, smile, seeing. All this was happening without an I.

You once asked, "is me another label?" I was confused when you asked; I'm not confused now. Me surely is just another label. Without the labels, then, life is free to roam; it's not happening to me, unless I claim it as a separate I. This still doesn't make it true; it only feels to to this imagined me, because I would be stuck in the fantasy.

QUESTION 2
What is here without labels?

ME
Experience of life. Whatever appears now, in this moment, is here. At this moment, typing the keyboard, sitting in a chair, thinking, seeing, hearing. Life is unfolding as it is.

QUESTION 3
Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

ME
No. Labels cannot affect the experience. The labels only sustain the idea of separation, even though separation does not exist.

What exists in this moment is a lightness; a sense of freedom. Slight anxiety also exists; the question is will this be here tomorrow. Will a life experience happen and the illusion disappear. That is, the question is have I seen through the illusion so clearly that I know that Santa is not a real life figure which single-handily fly around at Christmas time delivering gifts to all people.

It will be interesting to see what happens. It will also be interesting to see what you write back.

Thank you for patiently guiding. You staid with it every when something so simple could not be seen.

Cheers,
Hancock

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Re: Topic for New Insights

Postby Canfora » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:35 pm

Lovely post, Hancock, happy to read it. Here are my observations :)
sitting on the sofa, looking at a picture, drinking a cup of tea, hand on ankle, smile, seeing. All this was happening without an I.
At this moment, typing the keyboard, sitting in a chair, thinking, seeing, hearing. Life is unfolding as it is.
Wonderful, you looked and you saw reality. That's it.
it's not happening to me, unless I claim it as a separate I. This still doesn't make it true; it only feels to to this imagined me, because I would be stuck in the fantasy.
Do you see that you are always experiencing the inexistence of a you? If the self isn't real now, then it never was and all happened and happens without a you managing life.

Can you see this, even when thoughts appear about you and your story? The only necessary thing to see this is looking. You can look any time, anywhere. Thoughts appear, stories are imagined and believed. When looking to reality happens, what's seen as the truth? Can the thoughts and the stories be found?

For instance, when you talk about being stuck in the fantasy, is *stuck* more than a label?
If you look now - and I see from your words that you know how to do that - what can you see in reality that can get *stuck*?
Slight anxiety also exists; the question is will this be here tomorrow.
Are you expecting to reach a permanent state of *enlightenment*? A permanent state of peace and bliss and no identification? Can you control states? How if you don't exist?

Thoughts and stories may not disappear. Can you see through them?

Welcome anxiety and other feelings. Don't resist them - it's resistance to what's here that makes us suffer.
If you look to and behind anxiety, fear, guilt, what can you see? Do they belong to you? Can you see a you here to whom these stuff belongs? Or just the sensations and thoughts, flowing freely in awareness?
That is, the question is have I seen through the illusion so clearly that I know that Santa is not a real life figure which single-handily fly around at Christmas time delivering gifts to all people.
Are you saying that you are 100% sure that the separate self it's an illusion?
If yes, what changed since you first arrived to the forum?

Looking forward to your answers,
Love, Sandra

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Re: Topic for New Insights

Postby New Insights » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:49 am

Sandra,

Thank you for your post.

YOU
Are you saying that you are 100% sure that the separate self it's an illusion?

ME
There is no doubt about it; there is no self.

For every situation that arises, there is one question that resolves the confusion. "Look: Where is the I/me/self that's having the experience?" It does not exist; it never has and never will.

"Will I keep this?" Who is the one who wants to keep this? "Will I be able to handle a crisis?" Who is the one in crisis? Only life is happening. There is no self. Doubt arises? Who is the one who is doubting.

On my drive home, it occurred to me that I could function quite well without an I. It became, "driving home." "Sitting in the care." Later, "going to be." The I because important to function in the world, and only when it's necessary. I can say to my wife, "I need a glass of water." The I is only for convenience and to communicate in the natural world. But if I do it myself, it becomes: "Getting a drink of water."

Surely, circumstances will come up: Life is doing it's thing. But there is no me doing it. The story might come up. It will be interesting to see if I need to look, and see if the truth comes out. What's the truth? "A story is playing." There is no I involved whatsoever.

YOU
If yes, what changed since you first arrived to the forum?

ME
What's changed? I'm not in la la land. But something was different: there was a calmness. I didn't feel confused. When something came up I paused and realized that there is no me. I felt good all day, even though, as I said, it's not all giggles. It could be though; knowing that I am not whatever, why not have a good laugh!

You can ask me more questions, and see what pops up. I know I want to stay in the community and continue these conversations with like-minded people.

Peace, Hancock

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Re: Topic for New Insights

Postby Canfora » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:05 am

Hancock, thank you for having the courage to look at reality and for sharing what's happening in experience!
I know I want to stay in the community and continue these conversations with like-minded people.
Great! That makes me happy.
You can ask me more questions, and see what pops up.
Perfect, I still have some questions that I would like you to answer if you don't mind. Curious to see what pops up with these ones :)

What remains?

What lives?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What controls?

What is aware?


Love, Sandra

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Re: Topic for New Insights

Postby New Insights » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:54 pm

Hi Sandra,

Thanks for your post. Here is where I am today:

YOU
What remains?

ME
There is a quietude about me today. It's not as if I have fallen into a trance. It's like I am aware of what's going on. Things do come up in smaller quantities than before, and when they do I know what they are, and who I'm not. If a little doubt arises, I realize that there is no me have doubts. There are doubts without an owner. When I see people and feel that they did not acknowledge me, I realize that there is no one to be acknowledged. I also feel some compassion for people who believe that they are a separate self. I know how painful that is, and I realize that they are in a story of a non-existent self. How can I not feel compassion for someone in that state?

What remains is that I now know how to look, if, and whenever, I feel like Hancock is a separate person with an identity. What is is boundless energy (I prefer not to use God here, even though I can use it with ease.) The word God is in part that has our world divided by war. My God is bigger than your God. It's like two guys measuring themselves and arguing about who is bigger. You know what I mean. It's just life. Life appearing in this organism, just like life appear in rocks, or a cockroach. This is the truth I turn to, and settle into, whenever I find myself believing that I am a separate self. It's just this: boundless energy that appears as everything. Only the thought of separation gives, or can give, a person the thought of separation. The thought, however, doesn't make it true. It's just this: Life. Take a chill pill, and let Life play, whatever the play might be.

YOU
What lives?

ME
Boundless Energy. Sure, trees, grass, organisms, including humans, live, but there is no animation without It. The animation is what is living, and that I call Boundless Energy. It's everywhere, including seeing and feeling and tasting through this body I, for convenience, call me.

YOU
What experiences?
Boundless Energy. There is only one answer. Sure, in this body I can feel pain; yet, it's just pain. There is no "I" to own it. I can experience pleasure. It's just pleasure. Boundless Energy is all there is. I don't have the language to explain it.

YOU
What thinks?

ME
Boundless Energy

YOU
What does?
Boundless Energy

YOU
What controls?

ME
Boundless Energy

YOU
What is aware?

ME
Boundless Energy

There is only one answer, once you look. It's counter to every thing I have ever known. There is no me; there is no you either. There is awareness but there is no "I" who is aware. I can't get this because there is no me to get it.

See what happens. Going to work might happen. Getting a drink might happen. Getting laid might happen. Who is doing it? Is there a me to do it? can't be. There is only one Boundless Energy, and it does it all.

This is what I see today. (Oh, by the way, using I or me or self means nothing to me. I know they are just words that help me function in this world. I will chose times, like on my drive how, to just name actions without a doer.

Peace unto you, Hancock

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Re: Topic for New Insights

Postby Canfora » Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:59 am

Hi Hancock!

Nice answers. You are labeling reality as boundless energy. I use the words This or Life.

I can see in your words that you started *falling*. Read this article from Ilona . Near the end you will find Step 7. I think it can be useful: http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/p/start-here.html

Can you please answer the questions below? That will tell me if we still need to look at something.

There is no rush - you can answer them all at once or one or two at a time, what feels best to you.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?


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