Guidance please.....

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
mumukshu
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:04 pm

Guidance please.....

Postby mumukshu » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:16 pm

Here is where I stand:

What are you looking for?

To see through, what you call and I seemingly have a sniff of, the illusion of the 'I'.

To resolve the contradiction in the following:

the heart beats without any control from Me, as do the senses sense. Also, I do not seem to have any control over my thoughts as well. They come out of nowhere and go into nowhere. I notice their rise and fall, out of nowhere and into nowhere. Then, how do I seemingly have control over how I react to these thoughts? This reaction must also be a bunch of thoughts over which I must have no control. So am I reacting without any control and then somehow thinking that I could have thought this way or that. This seeming reaction: is it also non voluntary, creating the illusion of control?

What do you think should be different than what it is now?

If there is no I in control, nothing should be different. If the I is in control, then understand how it can be in control and still not have any control over the thought process.

What do you expect to change?

Nothing except the resolution of the above question. If I am not in control, really nothing should change, other that Me thinking that I voluntarily chose to react a certain way to events, situations, in life.

What do you want to change and what you dont want?

I realise that what I want to change are the things that do not suit Me and not change are the ones that do suit Me.

So then the question then becomes who is this Me? I cannot be the body(aggregate of My senses), since they do not produce thought. Me seems to be in my mind (and what is this mind really?).

Where are these thoughts?

Not in my body as defined above, since these thoughts are not part of the aggregate of the senses. But without this body, can there be a thought? If there is no thought without this body, thought has to be part of this body. Contradiction again!

I would appreciate any help from anyone.

Thanks,
Mumukshu

User avatar
moondog
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:14 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Guidance please.....

Postby moondog » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:00 pm

Hi there and welcome Mumukshu,

My name's Pete and my role is to guide you through your own unique process.

There are a few things that we need to go over before the journey begins.

Tell me a bit more about yourself, how you came to LU and what it is that you're looking for. Also, what time zone are you're in? I'm in Somerset in the UK.

There are also a few standard ground rules before we start:

You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived, honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer, and that you'd like me to be your guide and then we'll begin.

Let's start with a summary of what you're looking for and what you expect to find. I know you've already answered some of these, but please forgive any overlap and just fill in the gaps where you haven't, and we'll get started.

What are your expectations for this process?

What is it that you are searching for?

How will you know that you found it?

How will this feel?

How will this change you?


Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:

1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

Don't worry, I don't intend to send any more posts this long, if I can help it! This is just to set things up for you nicely.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Lots of love,

Pete
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

User avatar
mumukshu
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:04 pm

Re: Guidance please.....

Postby mumukshu » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:02 am

My name's Pete and my role is to guide you through your own unique process.
Hello Pete,
My heartfelt gratitude for guiding Me! I apologize in advance for any annoyance or frustration that I might cause in the course of this journey.
Tell me a bit more about yourself, how you came to LU and what it is that you're looking for. Also, what time zone are you're in? I'm in Somerset in the UK.
I have been practicing meditation for about 10 years on and off. I go through periods of intense inquiry at times and then seemingly cool off having hit an equilibrium point, until something unsettles me from this temporary equilibrium, triggering another round of intense contemplation. Every time this search opens new avenues and this time, I happened on http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/, which lists your site as one of the references on its list of recommended books. I spent a few days reading carefully through the gateless gatecrashers book and a few threads here. I would follow some of the replies upto a point and then it would look like the people involved were making observations that I could not relate to. This was when, it was clear to me that I needed to talk to someone for clarifications.
I am looking to penetrate the words of many ancients on the non existence of self, through experiential verification. I am in Saint Louis, MO, USA.
You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same.
I agree to post at least once a day.
Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer, and that you'd like me to be your guide and then we'll begin.
I have seen the video and agree to the disclaimer and would like for you to be my guide.
What are your expectations for this process?
To feel/ascertain the hypothesis of no self through experiential verification on myself. I expect that I would be able to share with you my honest thoughts/feelings/emotions and the prevalence of sensations, in response to any queries that you might raise, towards establishing the myth of the self.
What is it that you are searching for?
I am searching to establish the truth of the statement that there is no self.
How will you know that you found it?
I would think if the myth of the self is busted, then there would be an uprooting of the 'I-me-mine' thinking and a natural alignment with the flow of things without any self centered thinking.
How will this feel?
Hopefully as a big relief as a lot of investment of thought and effort is made on the I currently.
How will this change you?
Hopefully if that hypothesis is true and is experienced then many of the egocentric thoughts and actions, I might currently be indulging in might cease. I could started directly experiencing the world than putting it through the filter of I.

Thanks again for helping me in this endeavor,
Chandra

User avatar
moondog
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:14 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Guidance please.....

Postby moondog » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:20 am

Hi Chandra,

Thanks for accepting me as your guide, for letting me know a bit about yourself and for accepting all the various conditions etc. We've obviously got a fair slice of time difference between us but I've successfully guided quite a few folks living in the US before so I reckon we can easily work with that and it should be no problem.

Thanks for sharing so clearly your expectations and understanding of what seeing that you have no separate self might be like. It's good that your expectations are neither too specific nor unrealistic. It's natural, of course, to wonder and speculate about what this liberation/awakening will be like but, by its very nature, I can assure you that it's just not like anyone expects, although it does differ for each one of us. I'd just stress that the work we do is definitely not intellectual or thought-based. That being so, it's best to put aside any expectations, as they reside in thoughts about the future and so are not within direct experience.

Rest assured, that when you see that there isn't and never has been a "you", a self-entity, with my guiding to help you see that fact for yourself, you'll just know. In exactly the same way that you know that unicorns aren't real, Batman doesn't exist, and there's no Santa Claus. It isn't fundamentally at all difficult, amazingly simple in fact, but only if you don't rely on trying to figure it out by thinking it through but, instead, just LOOK, LOOK, LOOK in direct experience.

So, great, as I've already said, actually seeing for sure that there is no separate self, and never has been, is different for everyone. It can come with a definite pop of realisation, or it might creep up gradually until it is seen. Also the effects on life lived after liberation can vary widely.

It’s worth mentioning at this early stage that what can hold a lot of people back, and something that we can perhaps knock on the head now, are assumptions around what one would 'be like' or what life ought to 'look like' once it’s seen that there’s no self-entity. There is a view that 'getting it' is tantamount to kind of somehow seeing it all the time, or being in some kind of state in which negative emotions or problems don’t arise.

It's really helpful to be clear that it's not any kind of state - it's simply direct knowing, insight. The Santa example puts it very well - 'seeing through' Santa, i.e. knowing for sure that there is no Santa, doesn't mean that little kids then spend the rest of their lives constantly thinking, 'there's no Santa'! Nor does it mean that Santa isn't apparently spotted in shopping malls in December. It's just that the story has been seen through. The direct knowing of no-self may be recollected at any time, but states still continue to come and go - pleasant, unpleasant, 'positive', 'negative'. However, that said, changes will be noticed, some possibly quite dramatic, including in relation to suffering arising from a pre-occupation with a separate self that simply doesn't exist!

I'll post once a day, perhaps occasionally more, and will tell you in advance if I know I won't be able to post. It would be good if you could do the same.

I hope that's helped to clarify the background stuff a bit. Don't hesitate to ask me about any of this.

Moving on towards the core of this work - just look at the following statement, and ponder it every which way you can:

Nothing exists outside the present moment.

Can you find anything, anything at all, that does?


And next:

How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ me' that you hold 'yourself' to be?

Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?


Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

User avatar
mumukshu
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:04 pm

Re: Guidance please.....

Postby mumukshu » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:31 am

Thanks for accepting me as your guide, for letting me know a bit about yourself and for accepting all the various conditions etc.

I am the one who needs to be thankful to have someone like you spending the time and effort to work with me.
It’s worth mentioning at this early stage that what can hold a lot of people back, and something that we can perhaps knock on the head now, are assumptions around what one would 'be like' or what life ought to 'look like' once it’s seen that there’s no self-entity.
I have judged others from certain preconceptions I have had of who people with a sense of self would be. I probably will project this on myself as well. I will try to let go of such judgments/expectations, if and when that time comes.

Nothing exists outside the present moment.

Can you find anything, anything at all, that does?
No, I cannot. Only the things that I experience in the present moment (conscious wakeful moment) exists.
How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ me' that you hold 'yourself' to be?
I seem to conceive the I/me to be the physical body that I am endowed with and the stored mental image of me as also I/me. There seems to be a mental construct of me in my memory/mind that seems to get invoked many a times when I think of me. I almost think it is what gets invoked everytime, but this requires more time to confirm.
Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?
The mental component of the self does not reside in the flow of experiencing. There is just pure experiencing. But the physical component of the self aids in creating the flow of experience and comes into play when asked who is creating the experience? The senses are Mine. I seem to identify my mental image of me with my physical body, while making the above the statements! It almost seems that every time I/Me/Mine situation arises, it is the mental construct of me that I seem to corroborate with.

I am sorry if you find that I am a bit slow in responding to your queries. I really want to settle into an answer before I mail you. The response changes from the time I read your question and I might still keep pondering about them after I have mailed you. I hope that is fine.

With gratitude,
Chandra

User avatar
mumukshu
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:04 pm

Re: Guidance please.....

Postby mumukshu » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:32 am

I also see the following: the mental image of Me takes credit for everything i do, grossly inflating itself and its role. Thoughts did not come out of it. Actions were not performed from its instigation. Thoughts come, actions happen but how does the I take credit for it?

User avatar
mumukshu
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:04 pm

Re: Guidance please.....

Postby mumukshu » Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:06 pm

Since the thoughts and the action happen in the organism which others refer to as you, I seems to take credit for everything automatically, reinforcing the belief it was in charge all along.

User avatar
moondog
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:14 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Guidance please.....

Postby moondog » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:45 pm

Hi Mumukshu,
I have judged others from certain preconceptions I have had of who people with a sense of self would be. I probably will project this on myself as well. I will try to let go of such judgments/expectations, if and when that time comes.
Yes, it really helps to maintain an awareness that preconceptions, judgements, expectations are just thoughts, no more than that, and so not to be taken seriously, or substituted or preferred to what is seen in direct experience.
Nothing exists outside the present moment.Can you find anything, anything at all, that does?
No, I cannot. Only the things that I experience in the present moment (conscious wakeful moment) exists.
Great. It's good that you see that.
I seem to conceive the I/me to be the physical body that I am endowed with and the stored mental image of me as also I/me. There seems to be a mental construct of me in my memory/mind that seems to get invoked many a times when I think of me. I almost think it is what gets invoked everytime, but this requires more time to confirm.
My approach in guiding you to see that there is no self, no 'you', will be to take you in a loosely structured, relaxed and informal way in turn through each of the areas where a self entity might be lurking, so that you can see for yourself, in 'your' direct experience, that there simply isn't one there, or anywhere. You say that you - conceive the I/me to be the physical body that I am endowed - and the body is one of the areas we'll soon be looking at in some depth.

For the time being however, can you say whether this conception of you being your body can be found in direct experience? Or is it just a thought? If not, please tell me what you see in direct experience.

Similarly, what is - a mental construct of me in my memory/mind - if not another thought arising in the present moment? Again, if it is a directly experienced entity please describe it.

The mental component of the self does not reside in the flow of experiencing. There is just pure experiencing. But the physical component of the self aids in creating the flow of experience and comes into play when asked who is creating the experience?
You're absolutely right, there is just experiencing, but can you say a bit more about what you mean by the mental component of the self and the physical component of the self.
I also see the following: the mental image of Me takes credit for everything i do, grossly inflating itself and its role. Thoughts did not come out of it. Actions were not performed from its instigation. Thoughts come, actions happen but how does the I take credit for it?
Since the thoughts and the action happen in the organism which others refer to as you, I seems to take credit for everything automatically, reinforcing the belief it was in charge all along.
Good observations! We'll be looking in depth at how thoughts are always trying to pin all the credit on this mythical 'me'.

As you've probably noticed, these initial questions point you towards looking into 'your' direct experience which is where I will be frequently pointing you to look, and where this investigation will take place. That's as opposed to thought content. Direct experience is the very core of what we're doing here with this. Essentially, and utterly fundamentally, all there is, and can ever be, is here right now in this moment. So looking to see whether a separate and separating self is to be found can only take place within direct experience of this. Now. There's nothing else. It follows therefore that all of our work to realise and actually know that there is no self is done by investigating In direct experience. To this end, we can divide direct experience into thought, sensations (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling [tactile and kinaesthetic] and an unmistakable sense of Aliveness (presence/being). I referred to the useful article on direct experience in the introductory post.

As I've just said, the whole of this investigation centres around looking in direct experience to see if a self-entity can be found anywhere there. This is accompanied by seeing that it is in thoughts and only in thoughts that 'I' ever 'occurs' and that 'I' doesn't actually occur there either because thoughts, or at least their contents, are neither reliable nor real in any sense.

So anyway, let's start investigating in direct experience where a self-entity might be by looking at sense arisings and the self as experiencer (or not):

When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?

If there is an 'I', where are the boundaries between what is being seen, the seeing process itself and the seer?

Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.


Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

User avatar
mumukshu
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:04 pm

Re: Guidance please.....

Postby mumukshu » Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:29 am

For the time being however, can you say whether this conception of you being your body can be found in direct experience? Or is it just a thought? If not, please tell me what you see in direct experience.
In the direct experience, there is pure experiencing. The moment we talk about conception of me, it is in the thought domain and there is nothing in direct experience to be found for a body.
Similarly, what is - a mental construct of me in my memory/mind - if not another thought arising in the present moment? Again, if it is a directly experienced entity please describe it.
It is the indeed the conception of me in the thought domain.
You're absolutely right, there is just experiencing, but can you say a bit more about what you mean by the mental component of the self and the physical component of the self.
The moment you ask about the self, I have no recourse but to bring up My identification with the physical body and I moment I do it, I am in the thought domain part of direct experiencing.
Essentially, and utterly fundamentally, all there is, and can ever be, is here right now in this moment. So looking to see whether a separate and separating self is to be found can only take place within direct experience of this. Now. There's nothing else.
Indeed nothing exists outside of the present conscious wakeful moment as we established earlier.
When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?
There is just seeing. However, if you ask who is seeing, the thought of I attaches to the seeing. Also, interestingly now, as awareness of this comes, if you ask me again who is seeing, the reply would be there is seeing. The moment you ask, the thought domain kicks in. Thoughts start coming about seeing. Until then there seemed to be no noticeable thought. So, letting go of the thoughts and staying centered in the experience, there is no I. slowly, the identification with the physical body is not occurring.

Please do the same with hearing: birdsong, music, a pneumatic drill or whatever; and similarly with each of: tasting, tactile feelings and smelling.
did this with hearing and tasting: in essence, The separation between the object of the sensation and the subject is created by thought, in response to the question, who?

shall repeat the questions above tomorrow to see if there is any change in the answers.

With gratitude,
Chandra

User avatar
moondog
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:14 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Guidance please.....

Postby moondog » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:00 pm

Hi Chandra,
In the direct experience, there is pure experiencing. The moment we talk about conception of me, it is in the thought domain and there is nothing in direct experience to be found for a body.
Good, you can see that there is no 'body' in direct experience. It is just a concept, dependent on thought.
Similarly, what is - a mental construct of me in my memory/mind - if not another thought arising in the present moment? Again, if it is a directly experienced entity please describe it.
It is the indeed the conception of me in the thought domain.
Again, you see how thought plays such a crucial role in creating the myth of a separate self.
There is just seeing. However, if you ask who is seeing, the thought of I attaches to the seeing. Also, interestingly now, as awareness of this comes, if you ask me again who is seeing, the reply would be there is seeing. The moment you ask, the thought domain kicks in. Thoughts start coming about seeing. Until then there seemed to be no noticeable thought. So, letting go of the thoughts and staying centered in the experience, there is no I. slowly, the identification with the physical body is not occurring.
did this with hearing and tasting: in essence, The separation between the object of the sensation and the subject is created by thought, in response to the question, who?
shall repeat the questions above tomorrow to see if there is any change in the answers.
Yes, please continue to look at your experience with each of the five senses Chandra, and let me know whether you can find an 'I' involved or even present at all, save as a thought saying something like, 'I'm doing this, I'm seeing' etc.
Also, can you find any separation or boundaries between seer, the process of seeing and that which is seen? Or is there just seeing? The same goes for the other four sense arisings.


Finally, just a few words about thoughts and thinking, as they've been such a strong underlying theme in these last two posts. Thoughts are fine, there's nothing wrong with them and they won't go away anyway. They're here to stay and they can be very useful for practical things like analysis, planning etc. However, the problems start when we confuse what thoughts say with reality: direct experience of what's happening right now. Many thoughts, aside from taking the credit for thoughts and actions, consist of opinions, judgements about 'others' and 'ourselves', worries about the past and future, all 'designed' to protect and benefit this self that thought continually tells us is running the show, but isn't anywhere to be found, except as merely a reference, a concept, in that very thought. Now, I'm not interested here in peddling you theories. I'm only concerned in showing you where to look. But when you do look into your direct experience and find no 'you', no self-entity, except as the content of persistent thoughts, you'll know what is real, and what is just a story. Hope this helps.

Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

User avatar
mumukshu
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:04 pm

Re: Guidance please.....

Postby mumukshu » Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:51 pm

Yes, please continue to look at your experience with each of the five senses Chandra, and let me know whether you can find an 'I' involved or even present at all, save as a thought saying something like, 'I'm doing this, I'm seeing' etc.
Not only there is no 'I' involved, there were extended periods of pure experiencing after the reply was posted yesterday. Vivid images and sounds were seen and heard.
Many thoughts, aside from taking the credit for thoughts and actions, consist of opinions, judgements about 'others' and 'ourselves', worries about the past and future, all 'designed' to protect and benefit this self that thought continually tells us is running the show, but isn't anywhere to be found, except as merely a reference, a concept, in that very thought.
when the hearing is from my son screaming or saying gibberish, where there is no mental processing involved, there is pure experiencing. But while watching two people talk about something important on an internet clip, mental processing kicks in. Tendency to judge happens. Do not know if this is the 'analysis' aspect of thinking or 'judging' aspect of it. Either way, there seems to be some preconceptions and the entire conversation is filtered through it. Even while talking, there might be some statements made that are based on some preconceptions, justifying certain acts while condemning others.

User avatar
moondog
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:14 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Guidance please.....

Postby moondog » Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:59 pm

Hi Chandra,

Can you answer the following question, still outstanding from my last post please:

Can you find any separation or boundaries between seer, the process of seeing and that which is seen? Or is there just seeing? The same goes for the other four sense arisings.
Not only there is no 'I' involved, there were extended periods of pure experiencing after the reply was posted yesterday. Vivid images and sounds were seen and heard.
That's good that you could see that there's no 'I' involved at all.
Can you say a little more about what you mean by pure experiencing.
Were the vivid images and sounds actually seen and heard, or we're they thoughts?

when the hearing is from my son screaming or saying gibberish, where there is no mental processing involved, there is pure experiencing. But while watching two people talk about something important on an internet clip, mental processing kicks in. Tendency to judge happens. Do not know if this is the 'analysis' aspect of thinking or 'judging' aspect of it. Either way, there seems to be some preconceptions and the entire conversation is filtered through it. Even while talking, there might be some statements made that are based on some preconceptions, justifying certain acts while condemning others.
As I say, thinking just goes on most of the time. It's just good not to confuse the concepts that thoughts carry with that which is directly experienced, particularly when looking for a self-entity, that's all.

So, now seems like the perfect time to move on to looking for a self in thinking and thoughts:

Not from what you think, but from direct experience, please say:

Where do thoughts come from?

Are you in control of them?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Can a thought think?


We seem to have got off to a really good start Chandra. How do you think it's going so far? Are you enjoying this process?

Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

User avatar
mumukshu
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:04 pm

Re: Guidance please.....

Postby mumukshu » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:47 pm

Can you find any separation or boundaries between seer, the process of seeing and that which is seen? Or is there just seeing? The same goes for the other four sense arisings.
There is no boundary between the seer, the process of seeing and that which is seen. This is very clear. For a few moments, it felt like there was only sensing and nothing else going on, no sense of I/me etc. It was very calming.
Can you say a little more about what you mean by pure experiencing.
Were the vivid images and sounds actually seen and heard, or we're they thoughts?
They were everyday images and sounds. They had existed all along - the vacuum cleaner buzzing, son shouting/screaming, sound of water pouring out of the faucet etc. The images were from the news website that is visited almost everyday, the pictures were CLEAR, so much so that there was a tendency to think why was this missed all along? In all of this experiencing, there was simply seeing and hearing.
Where do thoughts come from?
Not sure where.
Are you in control of them?
No.
Can you stop a thought from coming?
No.
Can you stop it in the middle?
No.
Do you know what the next thought will be?
No.
Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?
No.
Can a thought think?
No
We seem to have got off to a really good start Chandra. How do you think it's going so far? Are you enjoying this process?
It has been a wonderful experience, there is a lot of tranquility in life and the mental chatter, seems to have really diminished. Beginning to think, almost all belief systems in place, acts as a filter of reality skewing it one way or the other. It might be good to become aware of them. There might be a lot of such things in place from many years of living that it might take a lot of work. Not sure if situations/conversations can be processed without this distortion at all and if it can be, how will it be!

notice 'myself' patting myself on your complement! And as always, as it was not part of the direct experience, it was let go.

User avatar
moondog
Posts: 948
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:14 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Re: Guidance please.....

Postby moondog » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:33 pm

Hi Chandra,
There is no boundary between the seer, the process of seeing and that which is seen. This is very clear.
I'm glad that it's so clear. Good to see!
Can you say a little more about what you mean by pure experiencing.
Were the vivid images and sounds actually seen and heard, or we're they thoughts?
They were everyday images and sounds. They had existed all along - the vacuum cleaner buzzing, son shouting/screaming, sound of water pouring out of the faucet etc. The images were from the news website that is visited almost everyday, the pictures were CLEAR, so much so that there was a tendency to think why was this missed all along? In all of this experiencing, there was simply seeing and hearing.
That sounds wonderful and you should enjoy the experience when it happens. It's great and could be an indication that something is shifting. But bear in mind that, fundamentally, this investigation is not about seeking or attaining any particular states, enjoyable though some may be. They just come and go. It's simply about seeing that there's no self whatever your mental state, whether it be heightened or more mundane.

Your answers to my questions about thinking are spot on. You clearly see that thoughts just arise into awareness unbidden, without any self-entity there to do anything at all. Excellent.
It has been a wonderful experience, there is a lot of tranquility in life and the mental chatter, seems to have really diminished. Beginning to think, almost all belief systems in place, acts as a filter of reality skewing it one way or the other. It might be good to become aware of them. There might be a lot of such things in place from many years of living that it might take a lot of work. Not sure if situations/conversations can be processed without this distortion at all and if it can be, how will it be!
I'm pleased that you're enjoying this process of looking. When it's has been seen for certain that there's no self, it is views and beliefs that come to light to be examined and, in the absence of any self, are seen for what they are (or aren't) and gradually fall away. As there's no one to do this, it just happens.

But, back to what we're doing right now. You've looked for a 'you' in sense arisings, including thinking and have found no self at all in direct experience. Now let's look at actions: doing and controlling to see if there's any self at all involved there.

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing?
Try all kinds of stuff.

Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?

Look to see whether, when 'you' do these things there is sometimes a thought, just after that says, 'I did that.'

Are all actions 'automatic'?


Pete x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

User avatar
mumukshu
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:04 pm

Re: Guidance please.....

Postby mumukshu » Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:35 pm

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?
There are many instances when walking happens. Here one such instance is described:

Hunger is felt and a thought arises about eating. The body obliges by walking to the kitchen to fix food and eat. There is no 'I' involved. If asked who walked, previously the answer would be I walked with 'I' taking credit for it. Not anymore.
How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing?
Try all kinds of stuff.
A similar process as above unfolds in many of the cases like, brushing teeth, etc.
Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?
There is no 'I' in any of these. A thought arises and to accomplish the task that the thought brings to awareness, if habitual steps need to be taken, they are taken. If it involves new actions, that are not habitual, thought guides them. Again, no 'I' is involved in this, since thought by itself does not come out of 'I'.
Look to see whether, when 'you' do these things there is sometimes a thought, just after that says, 'I did that.'
When you said that we seem to have gotten off to a good start, the thought that said 'I did that', was noticed and let go.
Are all actions 'automatic'?
Habitual actions seem to be automatic. Non habitual ones, where trial and error is involved, seems to have a feedback loop with thought, with an action, triggering a thought and the thought triggering an action and so on.

Chandra


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests