Guide please :-)

[freespirit]

Hi, it would be great to talk to someone to confirm if I've truly seen.. I feel like the journey has ended after a few years of intensive searching with amazing transformations. It got to a point where it naturally felt right to drop everything, all beliefs and practices and just be. It seemed like then everything started dropping away even more and I noticed that I could almost watch life unfolding without any attachment to it. I must have known there was still something more to realise as I found myself exploring the no self and since then I feel even more different but I'm not sure if I've fully seen all there is to see and I would like some help with this please?

Very much appreciated
Caroline :-)

[Nettie]

Dear Caroline,
I will be happy to be your guide.

Here are a few ground rules,
1. You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!"
I am not your teacher, all I can do is point, you look, until clear seeing happens.
2. In general, I will ask questions, you look deeply and honestly, and respond.
3. Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers, and stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

This is an utterly intimate honest deep looking. Keep the focus on yourself. Keep it simple.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin.

What are your expectations for this process?
How will it change you?
How will this feel?
You can press 'subscribe to this topic in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive an email every time I post here. Some report its easier to write their response somewhere else and then copy it to avoid time running out on the forum.

Nettie

[freespirit]

Hi Nettie,

Thank you for your reply. I have read the above and I would be happy for you to be my guide, thank you very much :)

What are your expectations for this process?

I don't have any expectations of this really, I guess just to be asked questions and to see what my responses will be will be interesting and will help.

How will it change you?

I know that everything will be still like this, nothing will change as this is all there is and life will just go on. I guess my story will change a bit as it has been doing the last few years and things that seemed a big deal won't be anymore. As this illusion of me drops more and more I think this will become more so.

How will this feel?

I think feelings will still come and will be experienced but that I won't be sucked in by them as much and will let them be what they are. Just a feeling coming and then going again, not in "my" control.

[Nettie]

Dear Caroline,

Now leave behind all expectations anything you have read or heard about as this is not like anything you can imagine. This is uniquely your inquiry.

What are you referring to when you use the word 'I'?
Look.
Does it have color or shape or texture or any unchanging qualities or characteristics?
Can you bring it to me and put it on a shelf?

Next... Simply notice the nature of thought. Not the content... and not trying to figure it out... Just notice...
Can you remember all the thoughts you had yesterday?
Can you predict the thoughts you will have tomorrow?
If you were the thinker of your thoughts you would probably only have nice or pleasant thoughts right?
Are you the thinker of your thoughts?

Looking forward to your answer...
(There are no wrong or right answers....this is an utterly honest profound looking...only you can be this intimate with yourself...)

Love,
Nettie

[freespirit]

Thank you for your reply Nettie. In response to your questions:

What are you referring to when you use the word 'I'?
Look.
Does it have color or shape or texture or any unchanging qualities or characteristics?
Can you bring it to me and put it on a shelf?

When I say the word "I" I am referring to thoughts that come up about me and who I am like what kind of person I am, my qualities, likes, dislikes, where I grew up, experiences in my history etc but I know that this is all just a story, just a bunch of thoughts that I am identifying with as "me". It doesn't have a colour or shape and is constantly changing as more thoughts come up. One minute I might like something then the next minute hate it and who I think I am is constantly changing so I can't bring it to you, I can't find the "me".

I'm noticing thoughts, they just come and go really..

Can you remember all the thoughts you had yesterday?

I can't remember all the thoughts I have had as there is too many of them, they are constantly coming whether I'm aware of them or not.

Can you predict the thoughts you will have tomorrow?

No, I don't know what thoughts will come at all, they just arise it seems without control and I can't grab one and stop and look at it as before I have chance there's another one. But then it all just goes a bit fuzzy and as if the thoughts aren't even there but then they are if that makes sense. I am just doing things even before the thought comes so it's hard to even identify the thought anymore, it's just like haziness.

If you were the thinker of your thoughts you would probably only have nice or pleasant thoughts right?
Are you the thinker of your thoughts?

I can't be the thinker because I have no control about what thoughts arise at all, they just come. It makes sense that if I were in control then I would choose thoughts that brought with them pleasant feelings yeah but all kinds of thoughts come up and they're not always nice.

Thank you
Caroline

[Nettie]

Dear Caroline,

"When I say the word "I" I am referring to thoughts that come up about me and who I am like what kind of person I am, my qualities, likes, dislikes, where I grew up, experiences in my history etc but I know that this is all just a story, just a bunch of thoughts that I am identifying with as "me". It doesn't have a colour or shape and is constantly changing as more thoughts come up. One minute I might like something then the next minute hate it and who I think I am is constantly changing so I can't bring it to you, I can't find the "me". "

Niiiiice.
So there is no separate you?
Has there ever been?


"I'm noticing thoughts, they just come and go really.. "
Yes.
"I can't remember all the thoughts I have had as there is too many of them, they are constantly coming whether I'm aware of them or not. "

Yes.
Is there a separate you to be aware of them?

"No, I don't know what thoughts will come at all, they just arise it seems without control and I can't grab one and stop and look at it as before I have chance there's another one. But then it all just goes a bit fuzzy and as if the thoughts aren't even there but then they are if that makes sense. I am just doing things even before the thought comes so it's hard to even identify the thought anymore, it's just like haziness."

Yes.
It would be impossible to have to think before every action.
Even walking would be impossible.

"I can't be the thinker because I have no control about what thoughts arise at all, they just come. It makes sense that if I were in control then I would choose thoughts that brought with them pleasant feelings yeah but all kinds of thoughts come up and they're not always nice. "

Yes.
Can you really tell when one thought ends and another begins?
Can you capture and isolate a thought?

Nettie

[freespirit]

Thanks Nettie, these questions are great :)

So there is no separate you?
Has there ever been?

I see that I am not separate from anything around me. When I am still I get that hazy dream like feeling and it is like there is no "me" anymore. When thoughts arise I see they are just thoughts but even then they seem to blend in with the haziness and I can't stop one and look at it because another comes. All these thoughts are making up "me" and they just keep coming from more thoughts about me. All these thoughts seem to be coming from the brain/mind on their own. Is it that this is what the brain does? like the body grows and the heart beats by itself. It's as if the brain stores all this information then just keeps churning it all out on repeat again and again!

The "me" that I think I am is all these thoughts but I can't be a thought. And I can't grab a thought and look at it, when I try to do that it's gone and there's another one or is there, I can't even tell! This body that I think is me is doing things even before a thought anyway, it's moving on it's own and then the brain is telling itself what it is doing as if there is somebody that is doing it but how can there be! The "me" that I think I am wasn't there when I was born as I had not seen and registered anything. I wouldn't have thought to cry before I did as I had never cried before but it just happened automatically. The more that was experienced the more information was stored in the brain and it learned to identify as a "me" from what it processed.

Is there a separate you to be aware of them?

Since there is no separate me then there isn't anybody to be aware of these thoughts but there is an awareness of them somehow. It feels like there is somebody watching them but there can't be so it must be happening on it's own like everything else is happening on its own. I started thinking that awareness is just a thought as how can I tell if something else is watching the thoughts anyhow when the thoughts all blend into one and go hazy. But am I making this complicated by having to think that awareness has to come from somewhere? Maybe it is just happening. After all we can't explain what makes everything happen. Although I do see everything is just happening there is still some doubt but I can't seem to figure out exactly what that doubt is if that makes sense? I guess it's just a thought anyhow, haha. The brain is just trying to make sense of everything as that what it does!

Can you really tell when one thought ends and another begins?
Can you capture and isolate a thought?

I think I probably answered this already above. I can't tell when a thought ends and another begins, they all just blend into one big haziness and I can't even find a thought to isolate it, it's as though it's not even there. Was it ever there?!

I'm not sure if all of this has made sense as it's just jumbled thoughts coming out so let me know if you want me to clarify anything.

Many thanks
Caroline

[Nettie]

Dear Caroline,

"Thanks Nettie, these questions are great :) "
Nice!

"I see that I am not separate from anything around me. When I am still I get that hazy dream like feeling and it is like there is no "me" anymore. When thoughts arise I see they are just thoughts but even then they seem to blend in with the haziness and I can't stop one and look at it because another comes. All these thoughts are making up "me" and they just keep coming from more thoughts about me. All these thoughts seem to be coming from the brain/mind on their own. Is it that this is what the brain does? like the body grows and the heart beats by itself. It's as if the brain stores all this information then just keeps churning it all out on repeat again and again! "

Yes. Life spontaneously simply happens... And just as naturally the objectifying mind labels this as "perception". And "sights sounds" and describes them and usually labels them good or bad.
Yet thought never actually divides this seamless timeless stream.

"The "me" that I think I am is all these thoughts but I can't be a thought. And I can't grab a thought and look at it, when I try to do that it's gone and there's another one or is there, I can't even tell! This body that I think is me is doing things even before a thought anyway, it's moving on it's own and then the brain is telling itself what it is doing as if there is somebody that is doing it but how can there be! The "me" that I think I am wasn't there when I was born as I had not seen and registered anything. I wouldn't have thought to cry before I did as I had never cried before but it just happened automatically. The more that was experienced the more information was stored in the brain and it learned to identify as a "me" from what it processed. "
Yes.

"Since there is no separate me then there isn't anybody to be aware of these thoughts but there is an awareness of them somehow. It feels like there is somebody watching them but there can't be so it must be happening on it's own like everything else is happening on its own. I started thinking that awareness is just a thought as how can I tell if something else is watching the thoughts anyhow when the thoughts all blend into one and go hazy. But am I making this complicated by having to think that awareness has to come from somewhere? Maybe it is just happening. After all we can't explain what makes everything happen. Although I do see everything is just happening there is still some doubt but I can't seem to figure out exactly what that doubt is if that makes sense? I guess it's just a thought anyhow, haha. The brain is just trying to make sense of everything as that what it does!"

The mind seems to split up the seamless timeless unitary flow and then tries to glue all the pieces back together with the story of you.. It creates meaning and purpose...

"I think I probably answered this already above. I can't tell when a thought ends and another begins, they all just blend into one big haziness and I can't even find a thought to isolate it, it's as though it's not even there. Was it ever there?! "
Hahahahaha!
Beautiful!

Notice what is really going on.
There is an unbroken spontaneous naturally occurring timeless flow of whatever.
And that the objectifying mind naturally labels "perceptions"...
And further labels "sights sounds sensations experiences."....
And further labels bad or good or inbetween.
So life happens as it does...
Without any effort on your part.
And the mind simply utterly naturally uses learned words to describe what's going on.

Notice how naturally the mind will label "this" as a flower.
And the word seems to divide a separate thing called a flower.
Yet that word is a pretty paltry pointer to what is actually going on!
There is all the shades of light and color.. The smell... The wind blowing the petals to and fro.. The sound of your breath... The river and the mountains in the background..
Your memory of other flowers... Your friend saying... Oh! That's a daisy...

See how words really limit and seem to contain experience...when I could write volumes about my one minute with a flower and you could read them but... Well it is not the actual experience of "this".
"This" is the pre-conceptual world.
Always on...rarely noticed.

So is there anything that can step outside of this unitary flow and push or pull the universe in any way?
Is there a thinker?
A chooser?
A conductor of life?
Love,
Nettie

[freespirit]

Hi Nettie,

Notice what is really going on.
There is an unbroken spontaneous naturally occurring timeless flow of whatever.
And that the objectifying mind naturally labels "perceptions"...
And further labels "sights sounds sensations experiences."....
And further labels bad or good or inbetween.
So life happens as it does...
Without any effort on your part.
And the mind simply utterly naturally uses learned words to describe what's going on.

Notice how naturally the mind will label "this" as a flower.
And the word seems to divide a separate thing called a flower.
Yet that word is a pretty paltry pointer to what is actually going on!
There is all the shades of light and color.. The smell... The wind blowing the petals to and fro.. The sound of your breath... The river and the mountains in the background..
Your memory of other flowers... Your friend saying... Oh! That's a daisy...

See how words really limit and seem to contain experience...when I could write volumes about my one minute with a flower and you could read them but... Well it is not the actual experience of "this".
"This" is the pre-conceptual world.
Always on...rarely noticed.

This is lovely :-)

So is there anything that can step outside of this unitary flow and push or pull the universe in any way?
Is there a thinker?
A chooser?
A conductor of life?

There is just this flow of the universe happening on its own without there being a thinker or a chooser. It is only the mind that sends out thoughts that are identified with as being separate and as in control but there is no one there to control anything so it can't be true. There is something happening though but it's nothing to do with "me". I don't know how it is happening though and what has caused life other than it just is. I guess that this feels like the final thing that the "I" is still grasping to? The mind is trying to analyse. I see that I am not here but there is something here, the whole universe. Does this matter?

I really appreciate the time you're taking out for this.
Thanks
Caroline

[Nettie]

Dear Caroline,

"There is just this flow of the universe happening on its own without there being a thinker or a chooser. It is only the mind that sends out thoughts that are identified with as being separate and as in control but there is no one there to control anything so it can't be true. There is something happening though but it's nothing to do with "me". I don't know how it is happening though and what has caused life other than it just is. I guess that this feels like the final thing that the "I" is still grasping to? The mind is trying to analyze. I see that I am not here but there is something here, the whole universe. Does this matter? "

The feeling of certainty arises just as naturally as the feeling of uncertainty....
Confusion and clarity arise equally.
Effort and effortlessness both arise effortlessly.
The thought I'm getting it....
Equal to the thought I'm not getting it.....
All life simply happens...utterly without effort...and just as spontaneously the objectifying mind labels it. Amazingly! ....without effort. Without a separate you doing anything...
This seamless expanse has no inherent qualities or characteristics.
It is a-temporal non-dimensional non-spatial....
It is the mind which creates edges.
Yet it is possible to swim as edgeless beauty.... and simultaneously live as the self.

Can you separate or isolate two individual perceptions?
Can you really catch them and put them side by side?
Are there really better or worse?
Are there really separate events?
Cause and effect?

"I really appreciate the time you're taking out for this."
I simply love to talk about this and write about it as it is truly the most interesting thing to talk about.
Love,
Nettie

[freespirit]

Dear Nettie,

The feeling of certainty arises just as naturally as the feeling of uncertainty....
Confusion and clarity arise equally.
Effort and effortlessness both arise effortlessly.
The thought I'm getting it....
Equal to the thought I'm not getting it.....
All life simply happens...utterly without effort...and just as spontaneously the objectifying mind labels it. Amazingly! ....without effort. Without a separate you doing anything...
This seamless expanse has no inherent qualities or characteristics.
It is a-temporal non-dimensional non-spatial....
It is the mind which creates edges.
Yet it is possible to swim as edgeless beauty.... and simultaneously live as the self.

Yes, I see these thoughts and feelings just arising easily, naturally and the mind simultaneously describing and analysing these..making meaning when really there is none. I feel the flow of the energy of life and that there is no separation. It feels alive, buzzing, flowing, freely, effortlessly.. this is what religion and spirituality are pointing to and why we search for meaning because that connectedness is felt.

Can you separate or isolate two individual perceptions?
Can you really catch them and put them side by side?
Are there really better or worse?
Are there really separate events?
Cause and effect?

Perceptions just like thought arise and disappear and similarly I can't find where the perception starts and where it ends.. it's a constant flow of perception as when you try to look for perception more perception arises!
It is the mind that perceives events as good or bad but they just are. Without a mind perceiving them they are nothing.. since everything in life just flows, thought, perceptions so too must events.. so events cannot be separate and must flow with the rest of life. The mind is making events as happening separately but how can that be as nothing can be isolated and truly seen. That's how time is just an illusion..
There is no cause and effect because everything just is, moving, flowing like energy.. for cause and effect there needs to be separation..

Caroline

[Nettie]

Dear Caroline,
"Yes, I see these thoughts and feelings just arising easily, naturally and the mind simultaneously describing and analyzing these..making meaning when really there is none. I feel the flow of the energy of life and that there is no separation. It feels alive, buzzing, flowing, freely, effortlessly.. this is what religion and spirituality are pointing to and why we search for meaning because that connectedness is felt."

Nice. Searching for meaning is the same as searching for connectedness.
And it is the feeling of lack that drives the search... And that very seeking is what we are. That sense of lack creates the sense of an individual separate you. And the seeking further solidifies it.

"Perceptions just like thought arise and disappear and similarly I can't find where the perception starts and where it ends.. it's a constant flow of perception as when you try to look for perception more perception arises!
It is the mind that perceives events as good or bad but they just are. Without a mind perceiving them they are nothing.. since everything in life just flows, thought, perceptions so too must events.. so events cannot be separate and must flow with the rest of life. The mind is making events as happening separately but how can that be as nothing can be isolated and truly seen. That's how time is just an illusion..
There is no cause and effect because everything just is, moving, flowing like energy.. for cause and effect there needs to be separation."

So is there a separate you?
Has there ever been?
How do you suppose that feeling of separation comes about?
A chooser?
A conductor of life?

Love,
Nettie

[freespirit]

Dear Nettie,

So is there a separate you?

There is no separate “I”. “I” is just a thought arising and that thought cannot be found or separated; it blends with other thoughts and flows constantly. The perceiver of thoughts that can be seen to be “me” is also just perception arising and cannot be found or separated; it blends with other thoughts and flows constantly.

Has there ever been?

There has never been an “I”, there has only ever been “life”, one continuous stream of flow..

How do you suppose that feeling of separation comes about? A chooser? A conductor of life?

Senses are felt and the thought arises that there is a feeler and the mind perceives that there is a separate person that experiences these sensations. The mind stores all these perceptions and replays them strengthening the sense of separation and it continues to create new perceptions to make sense of the world. There is the perception that “I” is in control of what happens.. fear arises a lot and is identified with.. the feeling of not enough, always searching, trying to be better, change our lives is constant and it reinforces that we are separate and in charge of what happens. The more we do this the more we become sure that this is who we are and thoughts keep arising to confirm it to us…it is a constant cycle, which just happens..

love
Caroline

[Nettie]

Dear Caroline,

"There is no separate “I”. “I” is just a thought arising and that thought cannot be found or separated; it blends with other thoughts and flows constantly. The perceiver of thoughts that can be seen to be “me” is also just perception arising and cannot be found or separated; it blends with other thoughts and flows constantly"

Nice! How cool is that?
What is it like to know this?
In your everyday experience can you give examples what it was like before and what it is like now?

"There has never been an “I”, there has only ever been “life”, one continuous stream of flow.. "

Wow! How amazing this thing we call life!!!!!

"Senses are felt and the thought arises that there is a feeler and the mind perceives that there is a separate person that experiences these sensations. The mind stores all these perceptions and replays them strengthening the sense of separation and it continues to create new perceptions to make sense of the world. There is the perception that “I” is in control of what happens.. fear arises a lot and is identified with.. the feeling of not enough, always searching, trying to be better, change our lives is constant and it reinforces that we are separate and in charge of what happens. The more we do this the more we become sure that this is who we are and thoughts keep arising to confirm it to us…it is a constant cycle, which just happens..

Niiiiice!
So does it feel like you are awareness or the observer separate from perception?

Love,
Nettie

[freespirit]

Dear Nettie,

Nice! How cool is that?
What is it like to know this?

It is cool to know this  it is a relief too. There is no searching to do anymore, how can “I” search when “I” don’t exist, it’s funny really. That feeling that there is something more to find, discover is what is making the sense of self even stronger! That is what brought me here because I felt a big shift when I dropped the searching and decided to just enjoy the ride. Now it’s as though the more “I” take a back seat from what’s going on, the easier it is. And it doesn’t even feel like “I” is watching it happen anymore, it’s just sounds and sensations, thoughts and perceptions everywhere. They don’t even feel like they’re in this body anymore but they feel like they’re just somewhere but everywhere.

In your everyday experience can you give examples what it was like before and what it is like now?

This “I” felt heavy and burdensome. Before any looking a few years ago I was completely and utterly this “I”, this is all there was and it suffered greatly. Thoughts and feelings of wanting, inadequacy were always there and they were believed and with that brought more thoughts and more almost like they fed each other and became stronger. When feelings came “I” would resist them, want them to go and the more “I” did this the more “I” would identify with them and feel great suffering.

Then “I” became more aware of thoughts and feelings and that they could be observed. This was much better than being the thoughts and feelings because as the watcher the attachment wasn’t as strong as it had been before. However, there was still an “I” involved that was observing these thoughts and feeling. As the observer, “I” had the sense of control of which thoughts and feelings to identify with. There was still the sense that they were coming from somewhere and for a reason and the “I” continued to search for what is was.

Now there is the realisation that there is no separate “I” even to perceive. Perception is just arising and disappearing on its own like the thoughts and feelings, there is no “I” involved. The thoughts, feelings, awareness and the perception of all this moves together as one without control!!

Now it feels that life is just going on and there is no effort involved, no “me” controlling it. There’s not any need to analyse anything that comes up because there is no analyser, analysing just happens like everything just happens. Yes, life is amazing :-)

Much love
Caroline