Guidance needed please

[jbixman]

Hello, my name is Jerry. My journey has gone on for more than 30 years. From Ram Dass in the beginning, Course in Miracles, Wayne Dyer, Kaballa, . . . most recently Jed McKenna, Adyashanti, Rupert Spira finally Gateless Gatecrashers. Intellectually there is an understanding but need a push into reality. I have read and understand the Guidelines.

[Sarah7]

Hi Jerry
My name is Sarah and I would be happy to guide you.
Can you tell me a little bit about how you came to be here and what you expect.
Have you looked around the site - do you know what we do?
Looking forward to working with you.
Love Sarah xx

[jbixman]

Hi Sarah, Thank You in advance, responce to questions will be forthcoming.
Jerry

[jbixman]

Can you tell me a little bit about how you came to be here and what you expect

( I) had read Jed McKenna Trilogy 1 & 2 and was considering 3 and while looking at the reviews someone suggested Gateless Gatecrashers. Checked out the site and bought the book and read it, watched most of the videos and came here for help. Expectation is to be relieved of the habit of labeling and getting lost in the thought process. I have had some success with Douglas Harding's "Headless Way", but can't seem to make it lasting.

Have you looked around the site - do you know what we do?

Intellectually, I understand the process but feel I have not crossed fully into reality.

Thank you in advance for your caring and devotion to this project
Jerry

[Sarah7]

Hi Jerry
Where in the world are you Jerry? Im in England and usually post around 5 or 6 p.m. after work.

There are a few formalities to take care of. If you haven't already, please read the Disclaimer and watch the short video on the LU home page.
There are also a few standard ground rules before we start. Please confirm that you agree.

1. You agree to post at least once a day, time permitting. (If you can't respond fully on a given day, a few words to let me know you're still engaged would be appreciated.)

2. I will post questions, which prompt your investigation and answers. (I'm here to guide, not to teach.)

3. When you answer/report, please do so with 110% honesty.

4. And when you do answer, please answer from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time.

5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really commit to begin looking for this separate self, this "I"; look for what is the experience throughout the day as this looking happens. And if you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's fine to continue that. Please answer from your OWN experience. We use Direct Experience here – it is what is noticed, here and now:
- Thought.
- Sensations – seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling.
Please use this to answer questions.

Here are a couple of notes about posting in this forum.

1. Learn to use the quote function. There are instructions in this post.

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We can get started as soon as you confirm that you've seen all the above and agree to it.

Expectation is to be relieved of the habit of labeling and getting lost in the thought process. I have had some success with Douglas Harding's "Headless Way", but can't seem to make it lasting.

I will bring up any expectation I see to look at as we go along. What in your direct experience is permanent? Can you find anything that is, anything at all? Look.

How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ me' that you hold 'yourself' to be at present?
Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?
Much Love Sarah xx

[jbixman]

Where in the world are you Jerry? Im in England and usually post around 5 or 6 p.m. after work.

I live in Southern Utah, USA.

We can get started as soon as you confirm that you've seen all the above and agree to it.

Seen and agree to all of the above. Further Response to follow.
Jerry

[jbixman]

Hi Sarah,

What in your direct experience is permanent? Can you find anything that is, anything at all? Look.

The only thing I can find during my lifetime that is permanent is the knowledge that I AM, the sense of isness that I have experienced since my first memory.

How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ me' that you hold 'yourself' to be at present?

Intellectually I know that "I" don't exist. I am a collection of thoughts sensations and personal pronouns that can't be found in the real world.

Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?

No.

Jerry

[Sarah7]

Hi Jerry

Sarah7 wrote:How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ me' that you hold 'yourself' to be at present?

Intellectually I know that "I" don't exist. I am a collection of thoughts sensations and personal pronouns that can't be found in the real world.

Without the intellectual answer (and it is the non intellectual answer I need) what would you write?

Sarah7 wrote:Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?

No.

Is this experienced or guessed at? For instance do you feel you are inside looking out, so the self would be located behind the eyes so to speak.

OK let's look at sensory experience. Seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling and tasting. Let's start with seeing. Describe the experience of seeing step-by-step. In seeing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "seeing" is happening? What is doing the seeing? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of? Go into detail. Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing.

Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Or is there only seeing? What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?
Much Love Sarah xx

[jbixman]

Sarah7 wrote:How do you conceive the 'self' or 'I'/ me' that you hold 'yourself' to be at present?
jbixman wrote:
Intellectually I know that "I" don't exist. I am a collection of thoughts sensations and personal pronouns that can't be found in the real world.

Without the intellectual answer (and it is the non intellectual answer I need) what would you write?

I know my real self to be the awareness of the universe shrouded in a cloak of darkness called self. This cloak has worn spots which allow clear seeing for brief periods only to fade again to my dismay. This clear seeing is when my focus on the world eases back from a singularity to a wide unobstructed view without mental chatter or labeling.

Sarah7 wrote:Now look directly at the flow of experiencing. Where in that flow does the 'self' that you conceive reside? Can it be found, at all?

jbixman wrote:
No.

Is this experienced or guessed at? For instance do you feel you are inside looking out, so the self would be located behind the eyes so to speak.

Misunderstood you question, yes the self would be located behind the eyes.

OK let's look at sensory experience. Seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling and tasting. Let's start with seeing. Describe the experience of seeing step-by-step. In seeing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "seeing" is happening? What is doing the seeing? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of? Go into detail. Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing.

A field of view comes into attention, if the view is familiar it is probably scanned for changes since the last memory and any changes are noted and labeled for instance "oh that's where I left my glasses" Seeing does not persist on any object or scene for very long, it is a process of constant change. Unless I am specifically interested in what is being seen most of what happens goes unnoticed to me.

Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Or is there only seeing? What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?

Seeing is happening but I am claiming the experience to be my own. There is no dividing line between the object and the seeing of it.
'

[Sarah7]

Hi Jerry

I know my real self to be the awareness of the universe shrouded in a cloak of darkness called self. This cloak has worn spots which allow clear seeing for brief periods only to fade again to my dismay. This clear seeing is when my focus on the world eases back from a singularity to a wide unobstructed view without mental chatter or labelling.

You wrote this a few days ago: The only thing I can find during my lifetime that is permanent is the knowledge that I AM, the sense of isness that I have experienced since my first memory.

If this is your direct experience would this be an expectation then that you would expect universal awareness to be permanent? Can you tell me when you are not part of this universal awareness? Can you tell me how you are not part of this awareness? This implies there is a universal awareness outside of a separate you – does that make sense?

OK. Id like you to just sit for 10 minutes with a paper and pen and I want you to record everything you notice from your ‘I’ list. I want you too look at what experiences come up, what actions you notice, what labels you see and WHERE they are applied, what feelings and emotions come up, and what sensations arise.
Don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - I am lying in bed, I am hearing the rain, I am writing this list, I can feel a sensation of relaxing etc….
Id like you then to repeat the exercise doing exactly the same as you did above, but this time I don’t want you to use the word ‘I’ or ‘me’ when you write the list of what you notice. Again don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - waiting for the next thought, writing, breathing, listening, relaxing sensation etc…
What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises?
Which feels truer?

Misunderstood you question, yes the self would be located behind the eyes.

Please let me know Jerry if there is ever anything you need clarifying and Ill do the same. OK. So this self located behind the eyes – is it a feeling, a sensation, a thought, or thoughts, something else or a combination of? Have a good look and report back.

A field of view comes into attention, if the view is familiar it is probably scanned for changes since the last memory and any changes are noted and labeled for instance "oh that's where I left my glasses" Seeing does not persist on any object or scene for very long, it is a process of constant change. Unless I am specifically interested in what is being seen most of what happens goes unnoticed to me.

So would I be correct that you consider the observer to be separate here from the process of constant change? Kind of like it is moving around you?

Seeing is happening but I am claiming the experience to be my own. There is no dividing line between the object and the seeing of it.

OK. Lets look at that claiming ownership. What is it that is doing that? Is there a ‘you’ inside, a thought, a string of thoughts, labels, feelings, something else? Sit quietly whilst looking at something and see if you can locate it?
Much Love Sarah xx

[jbixman]

Hi Sarah, could not respond today last night was a Noon to Midnight Shift. Thank you for your tenacity, you are quite a task master, I'll try to step up to the bar.
Jerry (:|)

[jbixman]

jbixman wrote:
I know my real self to be the awareness of the universe shrouded in a cloak of darkness called self. This cloak has worn spots which allow clear seeing for brief periods only to fade again to my dismay. This clear seeing is when my focus on the world eases back from a singularity to a wide unobstructed view without mental chatter or labelling.

You wrote this a few days ago: The only thing I can find during my lifetime that is permanent is the knowledge that I AM, the sense of isness that I have experienced since my first memory.

If this is your direct experience would this be an expectation then that you would expect universal awareness to be permanent? Can you tell me when you are not part of this universal awareness? Can you tell me how you are not part of this awareness? This implies there is a universal awareness outside of a separate you – does that make sense?

Hi Sarah, I expect that UA is present at all times. My difficulty is that I get caught up in being the "I" in Jerry and in turn forget my true being. The Isness referred to is here every time I take the time to look but to my dismay, does not receive my constant gaze.

OK. Id like you to just sit for 10 minutes with a paper and pen and I want you to record everything you notice from your ‘I’ list. I want you too look at what experiences come up, what actions you notice, what labels you see and WHERE they are applied, what feelings and emotions come up, and what sensations arise.
Don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - I am lying in bed, I am hearing the rain, I am writing this list, I can feel a sensation of relaxing etc….

I am sitting the chair feels hard I hear the tv in the other room my fingers are feeling the keys I looked at the clock to see when 10 minutes was going to expire I thought about missing the TV News I noticed my breathing I moved to make the chair more comfortable I looked at my typing on the computer screen I notices some buzzing in my ears I complained how hard this is Five minutes left I yawned I felt the weight of my glasses on the bridge of my nose I arched my back to get more comfortable I stretched my neck I stared at the keyboard I looked at the stapler on the desk I noticed these thoughts are coming slower I looked at the clock and time is up

Id like you then to repeat the exercise doing exactly the same as you did above, but this time I don’t want you to use the word ‘I’ or ‘me’ when you write the list of what you notice. Again don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - waiting for the next thought, writing, breathing, listening, relaxing sensation etc…

breathing is happening seeing is happening sitting waiting breathing relaxing thinking observing thinking listening adjusting posture listening seeing relaxing waiting scratching yawning listening stopping this exercise.

What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises?
Which feels truer?

The second was truer, there was less mental activity and less typing.

jbixman wrote:
OK. So this self located behind the eyes – is it a feeling, a sensation, a thought, or thoughts, something else or a combination of? Have a good look and report back.

If I close my eyes there is a sensation, it feels like a magnet drawing my attention to the spot, it seems to be in the third eye area. The "I" only exists when there is thought, it thinks it is the owner of the other thoughts.

jbixman wrote:
A field of view comes into attention, if the view is familiar it is probably scanned for changes since the last memory and any changes are noted and labeled for instance "oh that's where I left my glasses" Seeing does not persist on any object or scene for very long, it is a process of constant change. Unless I am specifically interested in what is being seen most of what happens goes unnoticed to me.

So would I be correct that you consider the observer to be separate here from the process of constant change? Kind of like it is moving around you?

No I see the observer as being the space in which the seeing takes place.

jbixman wrote:
Seeing is happening but I am claiming the experience to be my own. There is no dividing line between the object and the seeing of it.

OK. Lets look at that claiming ownership. What is it that is doing that? Is there a ‘you’ inside, a thought, a string of thoughts, labels, feelings, something else? Sit quietly whilst looking at something and see if you can locate it?

Under these circumstances there is no ownership just seeing.

Many thanks for your help in this process
Jerry

[Sarah7]

Hi Jerry

I expect that UA is present at all times. My difficulty is that I get caught up in being the "I" in Jerry and in turn forget my true being. The Isness referred to is here every time I take the time to look but to my dismay, does not receive my constant gaze.

Expect????? Look!!!!! Never take anyone’s word for anything Jerry – especially mine! Verify everything yourself!
Can an eye look at itself? Can awareness/isness look at itself?
So – when caught up in Jerry are you separate from what is? Are you no longer in awareness/is-ness simply because you are focussing on something else? How?

The second was truer, there was less mental activity and less typing.

OK – so now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership? You may know this, the mind is a labelling machine and it always labels AFTER events. Have you ever noticed sometimes that you arrive at a destination and don't really recall actually making the journey? It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It is only afterwards that the mind grabs hold of the experience and states 'I was driving the car' or, if questioned whilst driving (a present continuous activity), it would say 'I am driving the car'.
Whether your mind is totally concentrating on each gear shift that 'I' make, each look in the rear view mirror that 'I' makes, each twist of the steering wheel . . . or the entire journey is done automatically, the same result is achieved. Similarly when doing household tasks. Whether mind is involved or not, the task still gets accomplished.
Have a good look and report back!
Can you look without labelling?

If I close my eyes there is a sensation, it feels like a magnet drawing my attention to the spot, it seems to be in the third eye area. The "I" only exists when there is thought, it thinks it is the owner of the other thoughts.

Do you actually experience a third eye? Or is that a story based around thoughts collected from reading etc?
Can a thought own another thought? Can a thought think? Or are thoughts being linked together as a story when really there is no relationship at all. Look at how thoughts work. Is it really one thought following another? Look?

Under these circumstances there is no ownership just seeing.

Is this seen?
Jerry if Im giving you too much to do please let me know. OK.
Much Love Sarah xx

[jbixman]

Expect????? Look!!!!! Never take anyone’s word for anything Jerry – especially mine! Verify everything yourself!
Can an eye look at itself? Can awareness/isness look at itself?

I know that an eye cannot look at itself without the aid of a reflection, isness looks at itself in the reflection of the world.

So – when caught up in Jerry are you separate from what is? Are you no longer in awareness/is-ness simply because you are focussing on something else? How?

No, there is no separation just a lack of attention.

OK – so now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership?

The personal pronouns are applied most of the time both as a commentary and a possesiveness.

You may know this, the mind is a labelling machine and it always labels AFTER events. Have you ever noticed sometimes that you arrive at a destination and don't really recall actually making the journey? It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It is only afterwards that the mind grabs hold of the experience and states 'I was driving the car' or, if questioned whilst driving (a present continuous activity), it would say 'I am driving the car'.
Whether your mind is totally concentrating on each gear shift that 'I' make, each look in the rear view mirror that 'I' makes, each twist of the steering wheel . . . or the entire journey is done automatically, the same result is achieved. Similarly when doing household tasks. Whether mind is involved or not, the task still gets accomplished. Have a good look and report back!
Can you look without labelling?

Yes the activity continues on its own without the need of the I's direction. Labeling occurs after the event, but so quickly it allows the I to take ownership. I am able to step back and watch for brief periods without labeling but soon am caught back in the process again.

Do you actually experience a third eye?

No it is just a location.

Can a thought think? Or are thoughts being linked together as a story when really there is no relationship at all. Look at how thoughts work. Is it really one thought following another? Look?

No thoughts do not have the capacity to think. They are serial in nature, however they are progressive in that one thought spawns another related thought much of the time.

jbixman wrote:
Under these circumstances there is no ownership just seeing.

Is this seen?

By these circumstances I mean intentionally bringing my attention to an object and gazing at it, at these times labeling seems to be absent.

Jerry if Im giving you too much to do please let me know. OK.

No Sarah, please keep challenging me.

Namaste
Jerry

[Sarah7]

Hi Jerry

No, there is no separation just a lack of attention.

Who is there to have attention? Where is this person to control attention? Think of the most boring meeting where your attention was on anything BUT what you were supposed to be listening to! Was that controlled? Give me a list of 5 things you control. For this it is important that you state from where you are NOT from where you intellectually think you should be or are. OK. For instance free will, fate, the next movement. OK.

The personal pronouns are applied most of the time both as a commentary and a possesiveness.

Well seen.
Yes the activity continues on its own without the need of the I's direction. Labeling occurs after the event, but so quickly it allows the I to take ownership. I am able to step back and watch for brief periods without labeling but soon am caught back in the process again.

But seeing happened! Try smiling every time you catch it!

No thoughts do not have the capacity to think. They are serial in nature, however they are progressive in that one thought spawns another related thought much of the time.

Are they? Or is it a thought that linked two other thoughts? Also look at habitual thinking. When thoughts follow one another and appear to build we call that story. What makes the story a story? Another thought? If thoughts had the power to own – how would that work? They have the ability to label that’s for sure – but own – look for a thought that owns.

First, let's look at sensory experience. Seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling and tasting. Let's start with seeing.

Describe the experience of seeing step-by-step. In seeing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "seeing" is happening? What is doing the seeing? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of? Go into detail. Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing. Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Or is there only seeing? What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?
Enjoy! Much Love Sarah xx