Guide needed with much gratitude x

[Shunyata]

Hi, you can call me Laura :)

I have been on a long spiritual journey which has lasted around 16 yeras, i have had insight into as Buddhists call it - the nature of reality and interconnectedness but it has been what seems like quite a disconnected experience, not experienced fully through the "sence of self". To move forward and connect to my vision i need to make sure that i am experiencing this in the correct manner and would like some help with this. Would i be able to request someone that has the most experience in this if at all possible, with no disrespect to any newer helpers as i too will hopefully be a new helper at some point :)

[neeeel]

Hi, I can be your guide if you like

first though, I need to ask, "what are you looking for?"

On this forum, we are not teaching you , or helping you to achieve a certain experience,or a vision. we do one thing only, and that is to point you to look at the non existence of a self.

If that sounds like something you would be interested in, and you would like me to be your guide, let me know

thanks
neil

[Shunyata]

Hi neel, that would be amazing thank you and i wholeheartedly accept your guiding :)
I am looking for stable liberation, something that lasts rather than comes and goes. I am looking to find out if i am experiencing my experience correctly, maybe the term is directly rather than visually, it feels like it is not grounded in the body and senses at times and i am not sure if this is correct or not. I am also looking to understand not only the lack of self but also the lack of others and other phenomema fully. Hope you can help, i am excited and a little nervous but look forward to fully understanding that there is no self to be excited or nervous X

[neeeel]

ok lets start :D

I am looking for stable liberation, something that lasts rather than comes and goes.

What would (stable) liberation look like? How will you know when you have achieved it?

I am looking to find out if i am experiencing my experience correctly

Is there a correct way of experiencing an experience?

I am also looking to understand not only the lack of self but also the lack of others and other phenomema fully. Hope you can help, i am excited and a little nervous but look forward to fully understanding that there is no self to be excited or nervous X

Ok, so what is the self? What does the word mean to you?


thanks
neil

[Shunyata]

Stable liberation will involve free flowing experience without being pulled back into a sense of self.
Experience should be experienced through the senses without detachment from the body
The self is a sense of a stable entity that does not exist and cannot be found on looking yet it so deeply conditioned it seems to want to return relentlessly to ruin my liberation - "my" being another none existent entity that comes from the sense of self !!

[neeeel]

Stable liberation will involve free flowing experience without being pulled back into a sense of self.

Isnt "being pulled back into a sense of self" also a ( free flowing) experience?

Experience should be experienced through the senses without detachment from the body

I dont understand what you mean here. we only ever experience through the senses. Sight, sound, smell, taste touch( although there are technically more ). In what way do you experience , that is detached from the body?

The self is a sense of a stable entity that does not exist and cannot be found on looking yet it so deeply conditioned it seems to want to return relentlessly

If the self doesnt exist, then how is it going and returning? Can something that doesnt exist , do anything at all?
Perhaps there is something else going on?

This also doesnt totally answer my question. You are answering from where you would like to be, not from where you are now. So at the moment, you dont believe that the self doesnt exist. You believe , to a greater or lesser extent, in a self. So, at the moment, as you are now ( not from how you imagine enlightenment to be) , what does the self mean to you? Perhaps it means the body? Or the characteristics of the person laurantikka? Or the entity that thinks, makes decisions, has been given the gift of life?




to ruin my liberation - "my" being another none existent entity that comes from the sense of self !!

[Shunyata]

[quote]Isnt "being pulled back into a sense of self" also a ( free flowing) experience?/quote]

It is but being pulled back into a sense of self is not liberation so "I" am trying to experience experience without that.

[quote]I dont understand what you mean here. we only ever experience through the senses. Sight, sound, smell, taste touch( although there are technically more ). In what way do you experience , that is detached from the body?
/quote]

I need to think about this as you have me questioning whether i experience out of the senses or not now !!

[quote]If the self doesnt exist, then how is it going and returning? Can something that doesnt exist , do anything at all?
Perhaps there is something else going on?/quote]

Hmmm, you are right.

[quote]This also doesnt totally answer my question. You are answering from where you would like to be, not from where you are now. So at the moment, you dont believe that the self doesnt exist. You believe , to a greater or lesser extent, in a self. So, at the moment, as you are now ( not from how you imagine enlightenment to be) , what does the self mean to you? Perhaps it means the body? Or the characteristics of the person laurantikka? Or the entity that thinks, makes decisions, has been given the gift of life?/quote]

Again you are right. I must believe in a self for it to exist and it does exist even though it's hold is weak. I need to watch this one and see how and when it arises fully. I do know it is not the body. sometimes the characteristics i think and definitely the entity that makes decisions and choices.

[neeeel]

It is but being pulled back into a sense of self is not liberation so "I" am trying to experience experience without that.

What if liberation includes being pulled back into a sense of self? Why are you trying to experience experience without that? How would you do that anyway? Do you control being pulled back into a sense of self? If you did control it, wouldnt you be able to stop being pulled back into a sense of self?

Can you describe the sense of self to me. Where in the body is it located? what does it feel like?

If the self doesnt exist, then how is it going and returning? Can something that doesnt exist , do anything at all?
Perhaps there is something else going on?

Hmmm, you are right.

If theres not an actual self going and returning, what is it that is going and returning? Take a look. When you feel like you are being pulled back to a sense of self, what is actually happening?

Again you are right. I must believe in a self for it to exist and it does exist even though it's hold is weak. I need to watch this one and see how and when it arises fully. I do know it is not the body. sometimes the characteristics i think and definitely the entity that makes decisions and choices.

Ok lets look at decisions/choices. Take two objects, maybe an apple and an orange, and decide which one you want. Notice what happens as you try to decide between the two objects. Can you find the decision point? The moment when the decision was made?

[Shunyata]

ok, will spend day looking and let you know.

[Shunyata]

I guess i believe that liberation is being free from "the self" or negative conceptual thought.

I meditated this morning for an hour and realised i do not want to be pulled back into "a sense of self" because "I" am afraid of the "I". which dawned on me to be toatlly absurd as there would then have to be two of "me". It didn't stop "me" coming back though. I think the "I" that pulls me back in is thought or especially negative thought or doubt.

It does not seem to be located anywhere but instead has feeling attached to it which i seem to see as being "my" thoughts and "my" feelings. These thoughts are definitely something to do with the past and who i believe myself to be but i know by experience that this is conditioning from a really young age.

Still to do the apple/orange test.

[neeeel]

I guess i believe that liberation is being free from "the self" or negative conceptual thought.

I guess it could mean that, but for the purposes of this forum, and this guiding, liberation is seeing through the belief in a personal self.

I meditated this morning for an hour and realised i do not want to be pulled back into "a sense of self" because "I" am afraid of the "I". which dawned on me to be toatlly absurd as there would then have to be two of "me". It didn't stop "me" coming back though. I think the "I" that pulls me back in is thought or especially negative thought or doubt.

What does it feel like to be pulled back into a sense of self?
Does a "me" actually come back, or is it just thoughts of a me? Can you find an actual me anywhere?
Its interesting about the negative thought or doubt. Do these thoughts, that pull you back in, all involve you, that is, are they usually about you in some way?

It does not seem to be located anywhere but instead has feeling attached to it which i seem to see as being "my" thoughts and "my" feelings. These thoughts are definitely something to do with the past and who i believe myself to be but i know by experience that this is conditioning from a really young age.

Do you have any control over feelings? Can you stop them from coming? Can you make them go away once they are there? Is it you that is doing, or causing the feelings in the first place?

[Shunyata]

[quote]I guess it could mean that, but for the purposes of this forum, and this guiding, liberation is seeing through the belief in a personal self. /quote]

I like this idea better to be honest, i think this is part of my problem , i am trying to deny the self as existing rather than seeing through it.

[quote]Do you have any control over feelings? Can you stop them from coming? Can you make them go away once they are there? Is it you that is doing, or causing the feelings in the first place?/quote]

Well i guess theoretically i should say that there is no one to stop them coming but for the sake of explaining from the side of the conditioned self which keeps returning then .... some feelings i have control over, some are powerful and just take me, it depends how strongly the conditioned response is. Sometimes i just see thoughts arise and fall and there is no "grasping" at them or attaching to them and then the conditioned self does not arise. Sometimes i am in a state where there are no thoughts..... hmmm, this confuses me actually because there are thoughts in "liberation" they are just not negative - free flowing. I sometimes realize i am getting sucked into self doubt and i fight to keep the thoughts away as i know i will get "sucked in", this feeling scares me, like i am becoming someone i don't want to be. I feel panick and fear and sometimes cant get out of this mind set. Usually once i sleep and wake up the feelings are gone and i am ok again. ......Hmm, this last bit is pretty key right ? If there was this real self to be afraid of it would remain in the morning wouldn't it !!

[quote]What does it feel like to be pulled back into a sense of self?
Does a "me" actually come back, or is it just thoughts of a me? Can you find an actual me anywhere?
Its interesting about the negative thought or doubt. Do these thoughts, that pull you back in, all involve you, that is, are they usually about you in some way?/quote]

It feels strangely grounding but scary like i don't want to be there. I have given this some thought today and i think i am afraid of the "I" and i am trying to avoid looking at it, this is why my experience has not felt grounded or detached from reality. There is no me anywhere i know this, it is just a thought of me. Most of these thought are about me yes, doubt in myself, fear of losing my mind - which theoretically is what is happening by seeing through the ego right ? I have had this happen for ages so any insight from your point would be great !!

Will do apple orange test later and send to you but on first thoughts the following happens - sometimes i look and there are no thoughts - the orange and apple are just what they are with no real existance, connected to everything else nut then if i try to think then there is mental representations of the apple and orange - what i have been taught these objects to be i guess. then as i try to choose there is sense input comes in - which one do i want to taste, which one tastes best. Didne get any further, maybe because i didn't want either but i am interested in knowing the relevance to the point at which you choose and whether it can be found.

[Shunyata]

I think the penny is starting to drop - going to see how the day goes :)

[Shunyata]

There is no point at which you choose, there is just an action :)
So what chooses ?

The "I" is just tied up in conditioned thought - where there is thought that is not free flowing and creative there is an "I" the ego exists in the stories we are conditioned to believe. So if no one chooses and no one thinks, where do the thoughts and choices come from ?

[neeeel]

Hey, sorry for the long post, am trying to respond to everything you said, but it may be overwhelming or confusing. If so, we can break it down a bit.

I like this idea better to be honest, i think this is part of my problem , i am trying to deny the self as existing rather than seeing through it.

Yes, denying it, without actually seeing it for yourself, is not very effective.

Do you have any control over feelings? Can you stop them from coming? Can you make them go away once they are there? Is it you that is doing, or causing the feelings in the first place?

Well i guess theoretically i should say that there is no one to stop them coming but for the sake of explaining from the side of the conditioned self which keeps returning then .... some feelings i have control over, some are powerful and just take me, it depends how strongly the conditioned response is.

In what way do you have control over emotions?

Sometimes i just see thoughts arise and fall and there is no "grasping" at them or attaching to them and then the conditioned self does not arise.

Yes, thoughts arise and fall on their own. But not just some thoughts. ALL thoughts.

Heres a few questions, I would ask you to look at each of them, and , rather than thinking about what the answer is, actually DO the exercise, and observe what is happening with thought. So, LOOK, rather than think

Can you predict your next thought?
Can you choose your next thought ?
Try and choose a random thought

Try these, and give me a description of what happened.

Sometimes i am in a state where there are no thoughts..... hmmm, this confuses me actually because there are thoughts in "liberation" they are just not negative - free flowing.

are you saying that no negative thoughts come up in liberation? Are you saying that free flowing ( I am guessing you mean non "sticky" thoughts?) are never negative?

I sometimes realize i am getting sucked into self doubt and i fight to keep the thoughts away as i know i will get "sucked in", this feeling scares me, like i am becoming someone i don't want to be. I feel panick and fear and sometimes cant get out of this mind set.

When you fight to keep the thoughts away, can you actually do it?
What if the doubting thoughts, the "oh no, I dont want to be like that " , the thoughts about liberation and how a "liberated" person should act, are all also rising and falling, on their own? Take a look and see if they are? Are you actively doing them?

It feels strangely grounding but scary like i don't want to be there. I have given this some thought today and i think i am afraid of the "I" and i am trying to avoid looking at it, this is why my experience has not felt grounded or detached from reality. There is no me anywhere i know this, it is just a thought of me. Most of these thought are about me yes, doubt in myself, fear of losing my mind - which theoretically is what is happening by seeing through the ego right ? I have had this happen for ages so any insight from your point would be great !!

so you(you # 1) are afraid of looking at the "I"(you #2)? How many selves are in there?

You have all these thoughts about how it "should" be. So you have thoughts about "The I is a bad thing" "The ego is bad and I want rid of it" "I am scared of the I", and then when you think you see the self return, you get upset because your ideas and beliefs dont match up with reality.
but these are just beliefs you have learned. You dont need to get rid of the I, or the ego. They are not bad. Thats not what this is about.

We need to take a step back here. Forget about all your beliefs about this, and instead, take a clear look at how things actually are.

In direct experience , sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, can you find an "I" anywhere?

Close your eyes and listen to a sound. Is there a sound over there, and an "I" over here, listening to the sound?

There is an experience of the sound. Can you find the experiencer?

Notice how thoughts label the sound. How they maybe draw a mental picture of you sitting in the room, over "here", with the sound occuring over "there", how they claim "I am hearing that". Is it true? Is there a sound, an experience of a sound, and an experiencer?

Do this with the other senses also, if you can

Will do apple orange test later and send to you but on first thoughts the following happens - sometimes i look and there are no thoughts - the orange and apple are just what they are with no real existance, connected to everything else nut then if i try to think then there is mental representations of the apple and orange - what i have been taught these objects to be i guess. then as i try to choose there is sense input comes in - which one do i want to taste, which one tastes best

.

So various thoughts and memories come up right? when was the last time I had an apple? Which one did I choose last time? Which one do I like better? Do I even want one at all? Etc etc. And also maybe, thoughts and memories of what each one tastes like. Are you actually tasting , or are these just mental representations of what they taste like? The only sense input you have had so far is sight and maybe smell. And yet there you are, "tasting" each fruit. Are you actually tasting the fruit in reality?

How much of this flow of thoughts and memories are you actively doing? Or is it just a stream of thoughts and memories ( and "ghost" sense input) which you have no control over?

Didne get any further, maybe because i didn't want either but i am interested in knowing the relevance to the point at which you choose and whether it can be found.

If you cant find the point at which "you" choose, then can you be said to be the chooser?

There is no point at which you choose, there is just an action :)
So what chooses ?

The "I" is just tied up in conditioned thought - where there is thought that is not free flowing and creative there is an "I" the ego exists in the stories we are conditioned to believe.

What is the difference between free flowing thought and non free flowing thought ( note, this is not a trick question, and I am not looking for a "correct" answer, you obviously have some way of distinguishing, or at least think that some thoughts are free flowing and others not)

So if no one chooses and no one thinks, where do the thoughts and choices come from ?

Look and see. Can you find where the thoughts and choices come from?