Ready for a guide

[gerry_1214]

My path has brought me to this forum and I am ready... hard to describe what I feel/sense... looking forward to meeting a guide

[Xain]

Hi there Gerry

Welcome to the Forum.
I may be willing to guide you.

Can you tell me a little of your background - Have you read anything previous to coming here or followed any teachers?

Can you tell me what is it that you seek here?

Very warm wishes
Xain ♥

[gerry_1214]

Thank you.
I have not studied much specifically about losing the self. I had just started reading The Power of Now, have read a bit in Gateless Gatecrashers, watched some talks by Tolle, Lisa Cairns. It seems that I have heard/read many things that seem to have pointed in this direction.
I have practiced meditation (mantra, mindfulness) sporadically for about 10 years.

What I seek: I have always felt like I am out of phase with the reality in front of me, I have always been searching for something that I couldn't describe. I have been solely focused on finding the "answer" for the past few months, trying to leave no stone unturned, following the path wherever it was leading. I feel like this resonates with that indescribable question that I feel. I just want to know the truth.

[Xain]

I had just started reading The Power of Now, have read a bit in Gateless Gatecrashers, watched some talks by Tolle, Lisa Cairns. It seems that I have heard/read many things that seem to have pointed in this direction.

I am familiar with all those. I believe I read 'The Power of Now' around seven times. In my opinion, it is a very good 'introductory' book. Lisa Cairns is great (and quite cute!). She is quite uncompromising when it comes to pointing to 'all there is, is 'this''.

What I seek: I have always felt like I am out of phase with the reality in front of me, I have always been searching for something that I couldn't describe. I have been solely focused on finding the "answer" for the past few months, trying to leave no stone unturned, following the path wherever it was leading. I feel like this resonates with that indescribable question that I feel. I just want to know the truth.

That sounds fair. There are many things that can be inquired upon in regards to 'reality in front of me' as you describe it. The one we focus on here is 'I'/'me'.
The standard view/belief is that 'I/me' is a separate person - A combination of a body and a mind.
An 'entity' with many labels, and a history. It can be said that this belief is the cause of all suffering.

Tolle mentions:

If you look at the history of the 20th century that gives you a taste of what it will be if there is no major shift. I wrote in the “Power of Now” that 100 million human beings were killed by other humans during the 20th century through warfare and so on. And I recently read in the history book by a Harvard professor that my figure was much too low. It’s as much as 160 to 180 million human beings were murdered through warfare and concentration camps and prison camps, and starvation, manufactured starvation because -- China, Russia, and so on. It's unbelievable insanity when you look at that history. And so if there's no shift in consciousness, we will go downhill very quickly because we’re already in the process of destroying the planet.

Our discussion together would be to see that all 'I' ever is, is just a thought. An idea. That there is no separate 'I' here now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be.
Most of the discussion will be asking you questions to see if what you currently believe is true, actually matches your experience. It can consider to be an extension of your own 'self-enquiry', but guided to examine specific areas which can hold the key to this realisation.

I have not studied much specifically about losing the self.

Just perhaps a little word, here. To say 'lose' something, points to something that exists that can be lost.
We are here to see that there never was an 'I' - Ever. As such, there is nothing to lose (other than the belief that you may currently have that there IS something to lose).

Xain ♥

[gerry_1214]

I remember thinking many times over the past few years that I was asking the wrong question. I have felt like I have been standing at the edge of 'me' looking out into space for an answer. Who am I? What does life mean?

That there is not an 'I' apart from the whole is an agreeable concept. I definitely feel attached to the I/me, I feel responsible for it. If it is just an idea and I am consciousness observing it, is there a way to step back, to not get so caught up in the directing and outcome?

We are here to see that there never was an 'I' - Ever.

I observe a 'me'. A Gerry. Currently I seem to be Gerry, experience all of the energy of the body, emotion, thought. I do feel like even if Gerry is a wave of the ocean, there is still that wave that may be observed. There must be more than just accepting the concept. I don't know the question, I feel like the truth keeps moving just beyond the edge of my sight...

[gerry_1214]

I just had this observation: I identified the thinking bit (language, images, sensations, memory) and there seems to be something beyond that. A being, observing, an "is".

Is it a moving awareness from the thinker to the "is"?

I don't feel like words work for this...

[Xain]

I remember thinking many times over the past few years that I was asking the wrong question. I have felt like I have been standing at the edge of 'me' looking out into space for an answer. Who am I? What does life mean?

Interesting. What was the question you were asking?

I just had this observation: I identified the thinking bit (language, images, sensations, memory) and there seems to be something beyond that. A being, observing, an "is".

Yes, you may be on the right lines there.
One major factor here is the examination of thoughts and beliefs (which are the same thing).
Our discussion and investigation will be to examine these (thoughts) to see if they match to actual reality.

You may realise that all 'I' is, is a self-reinforcing thought. Never anything 'real'. But that's to come . . .

Is it a moving awareness from the thinker to the "is"?

Sort of.
If there is a current belief 'I am the thinker', then that may shift to 'thinking happens'.
Clearly there is thinking, and thoughts are experienced, but the belief is that there is an owner and a creator of them here right now. This is the belief we will examine.

An 'is', is a good pointer. We can examine many things, but there are a few certainties we can agree on.
Something definitely 'exists'. That is clear. If we were to say 'I do not exist' that would be self-defeating, as there must be something existing to make the statement.
Our examination would be to discover what is here beyond any thoughts or beliefs that may convince us otherwise.

I don't feel like words work for this...

I know what you mean. It may happen that descriptions become difficult, but please feel free to talk normally and use every-day language.

Feel free to throw any further questions this way, but for now, if you are good to have a crack and see what we can find together in our chat, then just have a look at these important points before we get underway:

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
(Scroll down the page)

If you need to you can use the QUOTE function like I have done above to quote some of your replies - It may make it easier to read through the dialogue.
A guide for this function can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Xain ♥

[gerry_1214]

Thanks,
Understand points 1 through 4 and agree. The 100% honesty part will be interesting because I think there is a certain amount of "self"-deception, closed feedback loops/patterns of thought-beliefs in the brain/mind. I think I understand the direct personal experience, if not I'm sure it will become evident.

I would like to be done in about an hour... but that may not happen I suppose (smiling as I say this). I will try to flow with the process.

Interesting. What was the question you were asking?

Mostly the questions were along the lines of: Why can't I? be happy, do this or that. or What is wrong with me and how do I fix it?

Appreciate your assistance.

[Xain]

The 100% honesty part will be interesting because I think there is a certain amount of "self"-deception, closed feedback loops/patterns of thought-beliefs in the brain/mind.

That's honesty right there to begin with :-) To truly know yourself. It's a good start.

I suppose the main 'honesty' factor is truly saying what you believe to be right. Often people come here after reading, studying or speaking to others. They say 'I am consciousness', 'I am eternal love' etc, when really when it all boils down to it, their true belief is that they are a person called Joe Bloggs aged 48 from Chepstow with a wife, two children and a pet chinchilla called Engelbert.
Know what I mean? Don't speak from what you think is right, don't speak from what you think is the 'correct' answer, don't speak with words that you think I might want to hear - Just speak from a place of honest truth.
If that 'honest truth' turns out to be a deception, then that is a good discovery is it not?

I think I understand the direct personal experience

It is very simple. What is meant is what appears right now through the senses.
Let's look at this right now - Right now, what can be said about 'Direct Personal Experience'?
There is seeing, hearing, tasting, smell, touch - The five senses - All doing their thing.
There may be also 'thoughts' appearing - Memories, considerations, ideas etc
Does that seem fair?

So if we were to find something we could use the senses, or perhaps the answer would come as a thought.
If I said 'There is a Chinchilla called Engelbert under your bed' - How would you know if this it was true or not?
I suggest that you would use your senses.
Maybe you would listen to see if you could hear it? Lift up the bed sheets to see if it was there etc.
In other words, using your Direct Experience to see if what was being considered actually was real.
If you couldn't find it using the senses, and all it ever was, was just a thought (like Unicorns, Santa, Batman etc.) then you know that that thing doesn't really exist.

So our search for this 'I' will be done using 'Direct Experience'. If all that can be found are just 'thoughts', then what we are trying to find only exists as a thought. In other words, it isn't real.

Does that make things clearer?

I would like to be done in about an hour... but that may not happen I suppose (smiling as I say this). I will try to flow with the process.

That's all that can be asked. (I hope you are not in a rush! LOL)

Why can't I? be happy, do this or that. or What is wrong with me and how do I fix it?

Ok, good. I mean, not good that it may be causing you pain, but good as something we can look into.
Maybe we (you) can answer these questions by the end of our discussion . . .

Have anything to add before we go 'wild chinchilla hunting'? :-)

Xain ♥

[gerry_1214]

I suppose the main 'honesty' factor is truly saying what you believe to be right.

I can do this.

So our search for this 'I' will be done using 'Direct Experience'. If all that can be found are just 'thoughts', then what we are trying to find only exists as a thought. In other words, it isn't real.

May need more on the meaning of real, but as we go along, not necessarily at this moment. I believe that all of the sensory experience is processed by the brain/mind, so what is not thought?

I am ready continue.

[Xain]

Well, 'real' as I term it is simply what can be found.

You might have a thought about 'Australia' and you would know it was just a thought.
To find out if the place is real, you could visit there, throw a boomerang, cuddle a Koala, get Rolf Harris's signature etc.

'Real' meaning something we can establish really exists.
Currently the belief is that 'I' exist as a separate thing - This is what we shall look into.

I believe that all of the sensory experience is processed by the brain/mind, so what is not thought?

Good point. Perhaps going 'way beyond' our dialogue, but still valid.
Everything is thought. Language is thought. You are right.

I observe a 'me'. A Gerry. Currently I seem to be Gerry, experience all of the energy of the body, emotion, thought. I do feel like even if Gerry is a wave of the ocean, there is still that wave that may be observed

So be honest with me (your first test perhaps).
Do you believe you are a seperate person, an 'I'/'me', 'Gerry'?
Is that just a thought?
Or is that 'real?
Or maybe both?

Xain ♥

[gerry_1214]

Just going to type the thoughts as they arise:
I believe that this body is me, I identify this body in this chair to be me. I feel like I am in this body, attached to it somehow. I experience the touch, sounds, seeing. I seem to be separate according to what I sense.

[Xain]

Great reply. Let's have a look at it.

I believe that this body is me, I identify this body in this chair to be me. I feel like I am in this body, attached to it somehow. I experience the touch, sounds, seeing. I seem to be separate according to what I sense.

'I am the body' is a very common belief. One of the strongest, probably as the senses all seem to have 'the body' as a central point.

Let's look at one sense to start off with - Seeing.
Let's try to keep it simple to being with.

In common speaking we say 'I see'.
So what exactly is this 'I' that does 'seeing'? It's time to see if we can locate it.

Have a look into your experience and try and locate this 'I' that sees this text here on the screen.
Don't think or analyse an answer, just use the senses to determine what it is.
In other words, if you say to me 'I see the sentence' what is 'I'?
What can be found?

Xain ♥

[gerry_1214]

So what exactly is this 'I' that does 'seeing'? It's time to see if we can locate it.

Have a look into your experience and try and locate this 'I' that sees this text here on the screen.
Don't think or analyse an answer, just use the senses to determine what it is.
In other words, if you say to me 'I see the sentence' what is 'I'?
What can be found?

I can't see the 'I'... there are eyes that I see in a mirror that light enters... I guess technically it's only a thought that says 'my brain interprets the electrochemical energy from the eyes', can't prove that...
I can't locate an 'I', there is a physical body that I believe contains it because it seems like the 'i' can't be located anywhere else, so by default it is in this body. But I can't locate it. This is the feeling I get though for as long as I can remember: that there is a man behind the curtain (the I) but when you look there is not a man and there is not even a curtain.

[Xain]

Well let's have a look at that.
Remember, (trying to keep this simple and exact), when we say 'I see', what exactly is 'I'.

I can't see the 'I'... there are eyes that I see in a mirror that light enters...

Well, two things here.
Do you experience 'eyes' seeing? Also, when you say 'I see', do you literally mean 'Eyes see'?

I guess technically it's only a thought that says 'my brain interprets the electrochemical energy from the eyes', can't prove that...

Technically only a thought? Well that would indicate that there is actually a real 'I' that is doing the seeing.
Do you experience a brain seeing? Also, again, when you say 'I see', do you literally mean 'Brain sees'?

Is 'Brain interprets the energy' an actual experience, or a thought about it?
And (if I may say so) rather simplistic. You need a functioning heart to pump blood around the brain, and oxygen present in the blood too, don't you? Otherwise it wouldn't work as you are describing it.
Do you experience any of these participating in 'seeing'?
Or are all these just thoughts about what actually happens?

I can't locate an 'I', there is a physical body that I believe contains it because it seems like the 'i' can't be located anywhere else, so by default it is in this body. But I can't locate it.

Do you experience a 'body seeing'? Or is there just 'seeing'.
Really have a close examination of your actual experience. What can you say about it?

This is the feeling I get though for as long as I can remember: that there is a man behind the curtain (the I) but when you look there is not a man and there is not even a curtain.

You mean Tin man won't get a heart now! Dammit!

Well, I'm not trying to kid you here. Just ask to find this 'I'.
Did you manage to find anything exact you can 'put your finger on'? Or were there just thoughts?

Xain ♥