Nettie is available if you want a guide

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Nettie
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Nettie is available if you want a guide

Postby Nettie » Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:43 am

I am free to guide.

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Actuallyone
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Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide

Postby Actuallyone » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:45 am

Dear Nettie,

I would like to accept your invitation to be guided.

Thank you!

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Nettie
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Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide

Postby Nettie » Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:18 pm

Dear Actuallyone,
Is this what you want me to call you?
I will be happy to be your guide.

Here are a few ground rules,
1. You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!"
I am not your teacher, all I can do is point, you look, until clear seeing happens.
2. In general, I will ask questions, you look deeply and honestly, and respond.
3. Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.
4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers, and stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

This is an utterly intimate honest deep looking. Keep the focus on yourself.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would like me to be your guide - then we shall begin.

What are your expectations for this process?
How will it change you?
How will this feel?
You can press 'subscribe to this topic in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive an email every time I post here. Some report its easier to write their response somewhere else and then copy it to avoid time running out on the forum.

Looking forward to your response,
Nettie

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Actuallyone
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Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide

Postby Actuallyone » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:21 pm

Dear Nettie,

Thanks for the response. Yes, I am happy you are my guide and i have read all of the information from the previous post. I am clear on the process.

My expectations for this process are that I can see that there is no self, and never has been. This will change me in a way that there is no more self center that i am identified with and life will just happen without a "me" interfering. How it will feel, i am not sure, and i am not concerned with now, but i guess life will feel lighter.

By the way, you can also call me Ben.

Thank you!

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Nettie
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Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide

Postby Nettie » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:41 pm

Dear Ben,

"My expectations for this process are that I can see that there is no self, and never has been. This will change me in a way that there is no more self center that i am identified with and life will just happen without a "me" interfering. How it will feel, i am not sure, and i am not concerned with now, but i guess life will feel lighter."

That sounds reasonable. Now however drop all expectations. Everything you've read or heard about this. Because it is unlike anything else. It is beyond belief. Beyond imagination.

What are you referring to when you say 'I'?

Notice the nature of thought. Not examining its content, just in a very relaxed way, notice how they are seemingly always coming, going, sometimes on sometimes off..

Can you remember the thoughts you had ten minutes ago? can you predict the thoughts you will have in ten minutes? Notice how there doesn't seem to really be a break where one thought ends and another begins...

There is only ever the current thought. Whatever it's content.Whether about the past, the future or anything at all there is only the current thought. You cannot grasp and hold the thought. That would be only the next thought.

Are you the thinker of your thoughts? If you were there would probably be only happy thoughts!

Looking forward to your response.
(Remember there are no wrong or right answers.)

Love,
Nettie

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Actuallyone
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Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide

Postby Actuallyone » Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:41 pm

I have on question up front: do you want me to "look" at all times around those specific questions, or just until i see the answer clearly? While writing the question, maybe the answer already appeared: i guess if i clearly see the answer to one of those questions, i will see it from that "new perspective" anyway?

What i am referring to when i say "I", is a reference to this body, an image of a so-called "Ben", a contraction/ feeling of an "i" that is seemingly there, but which cannot be tracked down if i look for it. Also, i can see when observing thoughts that the i is also a thought, and hence cannot think as such, but at the same time, there is a strong sense of "i" As a doer and contraction, which i cannot clearly see and assume to be true and real. The image ben is reinforced by the people around me and by a "auto pilot mode" that reinforces this. The sense of i wants to control what is going on with ben. The contraction of the i is mainly in the head, where there is a pulsation of many thoughts, which feels like there is something to be hidden.

When observing the thoughts, i notice the coming and going of thoughts (at least when i am relaxed) and also at times, i notice a kind of suppressing of thoughts, which is expressed in either a distortion of words or just sounds or melodies, which i see as a "hiding" or "running away" from something. Also, it is not possible to remember all the thoughts from 10 minutes ago, maybe just an overall theme or topic, and in no way is it possible to predict what the thought stream will be in ten minutes. And yes, the attempt of grasping of thoughts is just another thought.

Am I the thinker of thoughts? Well, what i can see are thoughts, how they come and go. If i look for a thinker, there are just more thoughts, which claim to be the thinker, but they are also just thoughts. But there seem to be so many subtle thoughts that i do not see clearly that claim to be the thinker, because there is still the belief that i am the thinker of the thoughts. It feels like that i am really looking i see there are just thoughts. But when i am not actively looking anymore, then the belief takes over again in a way. And yes, if i were a thinker and could really control the thoughts, there would only be beautiful thoughts. Here, the question arises, what am i, when i am not the thoughts and not the thinker of them? And then, why do they affect "me" if i am not the thinker? And i see that there is that contraction that identifies itself with the i.

Thank you!

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Nettie
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Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide

Postby Nettie » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:05 am

Dear Ben,


"I have on question up front: do you want me to "look" at all times around those specific questions, or just until i see the answer clearly? While writing the question, maybe the answer already appeared: i guess if i clearly see the answer to one of those questions, i will see it from that "new perspective" anyway?"

Simply look without trying to figure it out and report what you find.

"What i am referring to when i say "I", is a reference to this body, an image of a so-called "Ben", a contraction/ feeling of an "i" that is seemingly there, but which cannot be tracked down if i look for it. Also, i can see when observing thoughts that the i is also a thought, and hence cannot think as such, but at the same time, there is a strong sense of "i" As a doer and contraction, which i cannot clearly see and assume to be true and real. The image ben is reinforced by the people around me and by a "auto pilot mode" that reinforces this. The sense of i wants to control what is going on with ben. The contraction of the i is mainly in the head, where there is a pulsation of many thoughts, which feels like there is something to be hidden."

Ben, is there a controller of thought or emotion or anything?
Is there a separate you who can step outside of life and somehow manipulate life? If you were the conductor of your life. Wouldn't you have everything you have always wanted....only nice thoughts ...had only pleasant emotions?


"When observing the thoughts, i notice the coming and going of thoughts (at least when i am relaxed) and also at times, i notice a kind of suppressing of thoughts, which is expressed in either a distortion of words or just sounds or melodies, which i see as a "hiding" or "running away" from something. Also, it is not possible to remember all the thoughts from 10 minutes ago, maybe just an overall theme or topic, and in no way is it possible to predict what the thought stream will be in ten minutes. And yes, the attempt of grasping of thoughts is just another thought."

Nice.

"Am I the thinker of thoughts? Well, what i can see are thoughts, how they come and go. If i look for a thinker, there are just more thoughts, which claim to be the thinker, but they are also just thoughts. But there seem to be so many subtle thoughts that i do not see clearly that claim to be the thinker, because there is still the belief that i am the thinker of the thoughts. It feels like that i am really looking i see there are just thoughts. But when i am not actively looking anymore, then the belief takes over again in a way. And yes, if i were a thinker and could really control the thoughts, there would only be beautiful thoughts. Here, the question arises, what am i, when i am not the thoughts and not the thinker of them? And then, why do they affect "me" if i am not the thinker? And i see that there is that contraction that identifies itself
with the i."

So when looking for a separate thinker you feel a bodily
contraction? And is there a separate you who can control if there is a contraction or not?

Notice how all perceptions. Thoughts emotions sensations...
All happen spontaneously without you having to do anything.
Notice how every perception is simultaneously recognized or known. Also without you doing a thing.
Life happening on its own....
And the objectifying mind also naturally and spontaneously describes this unitary flow.

Thoughts are composed of words.
Every word is a pointer to a separate thing. Yet in this flow of perception you cannot really say where or when one perception ends and another begins. If I say the word 'flower' it points to a flower. Yet it can never actually convey the experience of flower. All the infinite hues and color...the light and shadow playing across the petals... The wind blowing it to and fro....your breath as you watch the dance... The sound of the wind in your ears...
I could write books about this flower but they would never convey the experience of it. And even by the time I say 'flower' it's in the past.

So words never actually capture the fleeting moment.... Or divide this seamless flow of what we call perceptions... And our minds further label these perceptions sights and sounds and feelings and thoughts into separate things or events.
See if it is like that.
Simply notice....

Much love,
Nettie

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Actuallyone
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Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide

Postby Actuallyone » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:13 pm

Dear Nettie,

Many thanks for your answer. This is just to let you know that I am looking and will write back later tonight, because I don't have access to a computer before that.

Much love,
Ben

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Nettie
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Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide

Postby Nettie » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:42 pm

Wonderful!

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Actuallyone
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Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide

Postby Actuallyone » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:15 am

Dear Nettie,

thank you again for your reply.

"Simply look without trying to figure it out and report what you find."

So, now reporting back on this. The answer is clear now, i.e. that only in the looking, there is clarity, and the not looking seems to be a being lost in thoughts, which makes the thoughts feel that that world and the story they create are real, i.e. the content of the thought and not the mere fact that there are thoughts.

"Ben, is there a controller of thought or emotion or anything?
Is there a separate you who can step outside of life and somehow manipulate life? If you were the conductor of your life. Wouldn't you have everything you have always wanted....only nice thoughts ...had only pleasant emotions?"

When just looking, there is no controller of anything, no separate entity outside of life itself. The looking however is only in relatively short phases, so many times it still feels there is a controller, but only in the content of the thoughts. Thoughts just appear and disappear. Actions just happen and there is a lot of freedom in this. The less resistance against what is happening, the freer it feels. It is impossible to step out of life because everything is appearing in this space incl. the I thought, feelings, actions and everything. This is seen at times, but there is a autopilot going on at more times, at least that's how it seems to be. Being the conductor of life only seems to be possible in a thought world, but is not what is happening. And when there is no looking, there is still an assumption that there may be a conductor. And then there is a thought coming in "how can I be in a state of always looking?", which is seen as just another thought, so not followed right now. I have noticed that the looking is setting free some patterns that I have never questioned before, and it feels light. There is more and more looking.

"So when looking for a separate thinker you feel a bodily
contraction? And is there a separate you who can control if there is a contraction or not?"

When looking for a separate thinker, I do not see a separate thinker. But when I do not look, it seems that there is an "I" or actor, that identifies with the thought stream and then i look at that, there is a contraction in the head area, more specifically in the temples. If there is a separate you who can control if there is a contraction or not? That's a good question. It makes me look further than usual and makes me see a concept that i can only see if there is no contraction. That's beautiful to see.

"Notice how all perceptions. Thoughts emotions sensations...
All happen spontaneously without you having to do anything.
Notice how every perception is simultaneously recognized or known. Also without you doing a thing.
Life happening on its own....
And the objectifying mind also naturally and spontaneously describes this unitary flow."

The above seems to "work" so far when there is just observing, without action from the body. When the body and mind are active in a conversation for instance, there seems to be less looking and the content more important than the looking. Especially the objectifying part of the mind is judged as something like "I still think the self exists because the minds is objectifying and giving labels". The looking stops there many times.

"Thoughts are composed of words.
Every word is a pointer to a separate thing. Yet in this flow of perception you cannot really say where or when one perception ends and another begins. If I say the word 'flower' it points to a flower. Yet it can never actually convey the experience of flower. All the infinite hues and color...the light and shadow playing across the petals... The wind blowing it to and fro....your breath as you watch the dance... The sound of the wind in your ears...
I could write books about this flower but they would never convey the experience of it. And even by the time I say 'flower' it's in the past."

Beautiful. Yes, that makes a lot of sense. No words can describe the beauty of sitting at the beach and looking at the Ocean, the breeze, the sound of the waves, the birds flying etc.

"So words never actually capture the fleeting moment.... Or divide this seamless flow of what we call perceptions... And our minds further label these perceptions sights and sounds and feelings and thoughts into separate things or events.
See if it is like that.
Simply notice…."

Yes, it is like that. Words are only pointers, but never the real thing, the experience. When we experience something, it is hard/ impossible to put it into words. And when we hear from others about something we have not experienced, we do not know what the actual experience is like.

Much love,
Ben

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Nettie
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Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide

Postby Nettie » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:35 am

Dear Ben,

"So, now reporting back on this. The answer is clear now, i.e. that only in the looking, there is clarity, and the not looking seems to be a being lost in thoughts, which makes the thoughts feel that that world and the story they create are real, i.e. the content of the thought and not the mere fact that there are thoughts."

Notice how the feeling of being lost in thoughts or not being lost in thoughts both arise spontaneously without you having to do anything.
Notice how they are both naturally and simultaneously recognized without any effort on your part.

"When just looking, there is no controller of anything, no separate entity outside of life itself. The looking however is only in relatively short phases, so many times it still feels there is a controller, but only in the content of the thoughts"

Notice how the feeling that there is a controller is also spontaneously arising and simultaneously known without effort. Can you change that you feel like the controller?

"Thoughts just appear and disappear. Actions just happen and there is a lot of freedom in this. The less resistance against what is happening, the freer it feels. It is impossible to step out of life because everything is appearing in this space incl. the I thought, feelings, actions and everything. This is seen at times, but there is a autopilot going on at more times, at least that's how it seems to be."

Yes. It feels like auto pilot simply because you have nothing to do with what appears. It is simply life happening.

"Being the conductor of life only seems to be possible in a thought world, but is not what is happening. And when there is no looking, there is still an assumption that there may be a conductor. "

If there is no conductor when looked for then there probably isn't one when not looked for.


"And then there is a thought coming in "how can I be in a state of always looking?", which is seen as just another thought, so not followed right now. I have noticed that the looking is setting free some patterns that I have never questioned before, and it feels light. There is more and more looking. "
Yes that thought happens naturally.
Just like all perceptions.


When looking for a separate thinker, I do not see a separate thinker. "
Yes.

"But when I do not look, it seems that there is an "I" or actor, that identifies with the thought stream and then i look at that, there is a contraction in the head area, more specifically in the temples. If there is a separate you who can control if there is a contraction or not? That's a good question. It makes me look further than usual and makes me see a concept that i can only see if there is no contraction. That's beautiful to see. "
Yes!

"The above seems to "work" so far when there is just observing, without action from the body. When the body and mind are active in a conversation for instance, there seems to be less looking and the content more important than the looking. Especially the objectifying part of the mind is judged as something like "I still think the self exists because the minds is objectifying and giving labels". The looking stops there many times. "

That is a thought. I think the self exists.... The objectifying mind learned labels and naturally without effort describes this seamless unitary timeless flow of what is labeled perceptions. Without any effort.

"Beautiful. Yes, that makes a lot of sense. No words can describe the beauty of sitting at the beach and looking at the Ocean, the breeze, the sound of the waves, the birds flying etc. "

Do words actually divide this seamless timeless flow?


"Yes, it is like that. Words are only pointers, but never the real thing, the experience. When we experience something, it is hard/ impossible to put it into words. And when we hear from others about something we have not experienced, we do not know what the actual experience is like. "

Look to see if you can say where one perception ends and another begins...
Can you capture a separate perception? Can you put two perceptions side by side?
Can you really compare separate perceptions?
Or is that the 'next' perception?

Time is created by the objectifying mind. So there is no actual past or present or future. This thing we call life can never be pinned down with words or concepts. Can you take the present moment and put it on the shelf?

Love,
Nettie

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Actuallyone
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Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide

Postby Actuallyone » Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:08 pm

Dear Nettie,

I have been looking today, and i think that the looking is becoming stronger in a way, going deeper, going through beliefs, where previously the looking may have been interupted by beliefs or other thoughts - at least seemingly because those are again just other thoughts and the looking as such cannot be disturbed. I can see that now afterwards, but not always while those thoughts come up - they still seem to be real in a way, but they are shaken by the looking. Yes, that's what i tey to put in words after experiencing it in a few moments today.

"Notice how the feeling of being lost in thoughts or not being lost in thoughts both arise spontaneously without you having to do anything.
Notice how they are both naturally and simultaneously recognized without any effort on your part."

When i read the above from you, i can see what this is pointing to. The question arises, "who is that "you" that does not have to do anything if there is no controller, no thinker, no doer? What is left? And the looking continues, the looking becomes slowly stronger than the reality of thoughts. And yes, at the same time, everything happens, although sometimes, there seems to be a feeling or thought that I can control something, but then i also see that it is not possible. Also, if there was an i in control, that i could also control to have no self. Anyway, this sounds quite philosophical now, which we don't need here.

"Notice how the feeling that there is a controller is also spontaneously arising and simultaneously known without effort. Can you change that you feel like the controller?"

That noticing feels liberating in a way. Everything is arising. Whatever it is. Not just other bodies, nature, objects, but also this body, feelings and thoughts. I can see a slow shift away from Looking at life as this body and thoughts to a looking that also looks at the thoughts and this body as something that seems to be on the same level as other bodies and hence there is no controller. And if i could, of course i would change that i feel i would be the controller. But of course, i cannot. That's a very beautiful question, which takes the looking deeper. Thank you!

"Yes. It feels like auto pilot simply because you have nothing to do with what appears. It is simply life happening."

That's also "mind-opening". The looking went through the belief that that auto-pilot is a mechanism keeping the self alife, but actually that is not the self, but the stuff happening and it is fine that that happens without my interference. Not only is it fine, but not even possible for me to intervene.

"If there is no conductor when looked for then there probably isn't one when not looked for."

Yes, i can confirm the sentence with the probably. And the belief of a conductor is just a belief, one or many subtle thoughts that still appear to be true at times, but the looking invalidate them. I will keep looking.

"Do words actually divide this seamless timeless flow?"

It looks like that thoughts or words just appear and disappear in that sea,less timeless flow, but nothing can divide that. There is always this noticing going on even when there are heavy thoughts of I or whatever else.

"Look to see if you can say where one perception ends and another begins...
Can you capture a separate perception? Can you put two perceptions side by side?
Can you really compare separate perceptions?
Or is that the 'next' perception?"

The perception is ongoing, always on, without any effort - it cannot be stopped. There are objects appearing and disappearing in that perception... They start and end in a way, but the perception as such, the noticing, the looking never stops. Also, the perception cannot be separate, separate from what? The perception seems to be whole in a way, it cannot be divided, and perceptions cannot be separate. In a way it is the next perception, but even that does not sound as it really is. The perceptions is always on and the things being perceived are ever changing.

"Time is created by the objectifying mind. So there is no actual past or present or future. This thing we call life can never be pinned down with words or concepts. Can you take the present moment and put it on the shelf?"

Yes, that's beautiful. Actual life seems to be wide, without borders and limits. There is freedom. The mind creates time. Trying to put the present moment on a shelf, would just be another thought, which appears in the perception, the looking.

There is a very light feeling now. In a way it feels good to look and also write it down here and to receive more pointers :).

Thank you and love,
Ben

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Nettie
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Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide

Postby Nettie » Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:26 pm

Dear Ben,

"thoughts " "they still seem to be real in a way, ".
Thoughts are neither real nor un-real. They are about real things like tables... Or imaginary things like unicorns or ghosts... or lines we pretend are on the earth like the equator.

"And yes, at the same time, everything happens, although sometimes, there seems to be a feeling or thought that I can control something, but then i also see that it is not possible. Also, if there was an i in control, that i could also control to have no self. Anyway, this sounds quite philosophical now, which we don't need here."
The key word here is "seems".

"Notice how the feeling that there is a controller is also spontaneously arising and simultaneously known without effort. Can you change that you feel like the controller?"

"That noticing feels liberating in a way. Everything is arising. Whatever it is. Not just other bodies, nature, objects, but also this body, feelings and thoughts. I can see a slow shift away from Looking at life as this body and thoughts to a looking that also looks at the thoughts and this body as something that seems to be on the same level as other bodies and hence there is no controller. And if i could, of course i would change that i feel i would be the controller. But of course, i cannot. That's a very beautiful question, which takes the looking deeper. Thank you!"

Is there a controller? Look.
Simply look.


"Yes. It feels like auto pilot simply because you have nothing to do with what appears. It is simply life happening."

"That's also "mind-opening". The looking went through the belief that that auto-pilot is a mechanism keeping the self alife, but actually that is not the self, but the stuff happening and it is fine that that happens without my interference. Not only is it fine, but not even possible for me to intervene."

Yes it is not possible for a separate you to stand outside this indivisible timeless flow and change it or re-arrange it in any way.
See if it is like that or not.

"And the belief of a conductor is just a belief, one or many subtle thoughts that still appear to be true at times, but the looking invalidate them. I will keep looking."

Good.


"It looks like that thoughts or words just appear and disappear in that sea,less timeless flow, but nothing can divide that. There is always this noticing going on even when there are heavy thoughts of I or whatever else."
Yard
Yes nothing can actually divide the flow. It is seamless..without time without borders or edges or limits or center.

"Look to see if you can say where one perception ends and another begins...
Can you capture a separate perception? Can you put two perceptions side by side?
Can you really compare separate perceptions?
Or is that the 'next' perception?"

The perception is ongoing, always on, without any effort - it cannot be stopped. There are objects appearing and disappearing in that perception... They start and end in a way, but the perception as such, the noticing, the looking never stops. Also, the perception cannot be separate, separate from what? The perception seems to be whole in a way, it cannot be divided, and perceptions cannot be separate. In a way it is the next perception, but even that does not sound as it really is. The perceptions is always on and the things being perceived are ever changing.

"Time is created by the objectifying mind. So there is no actual past or present or future. This thing we call life can never be pinned down with words or concepts. Can you take the present moment and put it on the shelf?"

"Yes, that's beautiful. Actual life seems to be wide, without borders and limits. There is freedom. The mind creates time. Trying to put the present moment on a shelf, would just be another thought, which appears in the perception, the looking. "
Yes!

"There is a very light feeling now. "

Notice how a feeling of lightness or a feeling of heaviness both arise spontaneously without you having to do anything.. They are both equally simultaneously recognized ...again without any effort. And the objectifying mind naturally labels them as light or heavy or good or bad or anything at all.. And all simply occurring naturally without effort.
Even the feeing of effort arises without effort.

Love,
Nettie

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Actuallyone
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Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide

Postby Actuallyone » Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:09 am

Thank you Nettie - i will get back to you by later on tonight.

Love,B

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Nettie
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Re: Nettie is available if you want a guide

Postby Nettie » Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:42 am

Have a wondrous day!
Love,
Nettie


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