seeking guidance

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jake711
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seeking guidance

Postby jake711 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:45 pm

Hi everyone! I read the Gatecrashers, watched the YouTube videos and noticed a strong resonance. I don't have a spiritual background but attended meetings with Tony Parsons as his message also resonated strongly within me.
There is a strong desire to recognize and find out what is true and I kindly ask for help in this process. Thank you.

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smudge
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Re: seeking guidance

Postby smudge » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:12 pm

Hi Jake (is it Jake),

I am happy to guide you if you would like.

First, it is important you are receptive to whatever seeing the truth may mean,

Disclaimer from LU:
The method of inquiry used on this site may actually work, unlike many spiritual practices. It will likely change how you regard your self, your relationships, and your world. Neither you nor we can predict how this will turn out for you. If you are already mentally or emotionally fragile, it may exacerbate a mental condition or disorder. If you are currently relying on a prescription or self-prescribed substance to regulate your mood or your sanity, we strongly suggest you not enter into this process. Our guides are not therapists and cannot take responsibility for your mental health, before or after. If your relationships are unsatisfactory, they may improve, or they may not. If you have strong religious or spiritual beliefs, direct experience may support them, or (in our experience) not. You are at all times responsible for your honesty, integrity and focus. A leap into the unknown is just that. We will do everything we can to support it, insofar as we are volunteers working online, with attendant limitations.

We maintain several Facebook groups that allow people who have been through a forum process to discuss and work through common issues. These are not a substitute for any mental or physical help that you may need after Gate. None of the group participants is responsible for your well-being, or can be held liable for any advice. Adopt any more thoughts, concepts, or beliefs at your own risk.

Enter into this process if you are ready and willing to question all your beliefs and assumptions about awakening, if you are ready to face your fears, and if you prefer truth to comfortable lies. Do not enter if your goal is to fix the parts of your life that you think are broken, to embark on a self-improvement project, or to gain some kind of spiritual certification. Spiritual tourists will be taken to the airlock and launched into deep space.

Our contract:
We both agree to post at least once a day, unless we let each other know otherwise.
I will ask you questions and you will respond with upmost honesty. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
Lastly, Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660”

watch this video (at the bottom of the page) before we start http://www.liberationunleashed.com/ and then let me know if you are ready to really look deeply.

I look forward to hearing from you,
Smudge
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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jake711
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Re: seeking guidance

Postby jake711 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:23 pm

Hi Smudge,

Thank you, I am happily accepting your help.
I read the disclaimer and watched the video and I'm good to go.
"Jake" is fine.

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smudge
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Re: seeking guidance

Postby smudge » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:51 pm

Great Jake!

That was quick, lets write at least once a day.

Lets begin by looking at your expectations. What do you expect from this process, how do you think it will feel and how do you expect it to change you? Just write from a flow of consciousness, lets see what comes..write it all, even the hidden more secret expectations, it will save cleaning up later.

Looking forward to you reply,

Smudge
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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jake711
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Re: seeking guidance

Postby jake711 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:15 pm

Sounds good to me!

A lot of different expectations:

* the actual seeing & recognizing my identity as false and made up as opposed to just intellectually understanding the conceptional component of the matter.

* the falling away of psychological suffering; the resolving of questions such as “what to do or how to live?” as there will only be life doing it’s thing and acting the way it has always acted; just without an identity.

on the other hand also:

* a feeling of specialness, of getting “it”, being better, more special than others. (I notice a feeling of shame while typing these words, but hey, I agreed to be as honest as can be.)

* I also expect fear to come up. Actually, I experience a sense of fear right now. Thoughts of becoming crazy, of losing my personality. A big fear of “how will I be seen by others?” And a fear of it being just another state, that will come and go and create more longing and more seeking, which has been experienced as uncomfortable and exhausting.

How do I think it will feel?

Liberating. Right now, there’s a feeling of contraction, of limitation and stiffness accompanied by a longing for clarity, pureness and openness to “what is.”

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smudge
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Re: seeking guidance

Postby smudge » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:07 pm

Thanks for your honesty Jake, this will really help.

I can hear you are worn out from your seeking! so I would encourage you, now you have acknowledged your expectations, to drop them and be open to whatever happens.

So now: What comes up when it is read this: there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be, no you as in zero?
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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jake711
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Re: seeking guidance

Postby jake711 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:21 pm

What comes up when it is read this: there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be, no you as in zero?


Feelings in the body, heart beating faster, agitation.
Thoughts: “No, this cannot be true!”
“You might have seen that there is no doer, but only because the observer cannot observe itself.”
“Therefore there must be a YOU that orchestrates and makes decisions, although it is not and can never be seen.”
A feeling of this being just a thought, merely a thought and that this is all there is and an awareness of how easy it is to get lost in thought and conceptionalize everything; again.

A feeling of threat and a build up in anxiety, felt in the body.
Also, “I” am surprised by this reaction.

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smudge
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Re: seeking guidance

Postby smudge » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:34 pm

So doubt, threat, anxiety and surprise arise, what are they protecting, really look now and see what you find.

Thoughts
You might have seen that there is no doer, but only because the observer cannot observe itself
Who is this thought referring to with the word you, look and describe.
You might have seen that there is no doer, but only because the observer cannot observe itself
Who is the you again?
A feeling of this being just a thought
Is this a thought or a feeling? Lets be clear what is a thought and what is a feeling.

Good start, you're keen!
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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jake711
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Re: seeking guidance

Postby jake711 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:45 pm

Who is this thought referring to with the word you, look and describe.
Who is the you again?


It is impossible to answer.
I cannot see anyone/anything …all there is is thoughts popping up, out of nowhere.


“A feeling of this just being a thought” - is this a thought or a feeling? Lets be clear what is a thought and what is a feeling.

It’s just another thought.
It’s just another thought.



Also, just noticed that thought is ALWAYS late!!!
It’s late, it comes after.

dizzy-ness.

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jake711
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Re: seeking guidance

Postby jake711 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:47 pm

but who notices thought being late?

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smudge
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Re: seeking guidance

Postby smudge » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:56 pm

Great stuff!
all there is is thoughts popping up, out of nowhere
Yep!
dizzy-ness
& no need to rush, no where to get to.

I need to go out in a moment so take your time with this one.
Lets look at the self as doer or controller: Do this: Write what you are experiencing right now using the words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now. Like this: I am lying in bed. I am hearing rain. I am typing these words. Do this for 10 minutes. Watch the body; what physical sensations are happening? Then for the next 10 minutes write what you are experiencing without the words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening in the moment, using verbs: Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing rain. Again watch what is happening in the body. Now compare these two ways to label experience. What do you notice?

Look forward to hearing.
Smudge
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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jake711
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Re: seeking guidance

Postby jake711 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:55 pm

Lets look at the self as doer or controller: Do this: Write what you are experiencing right now using the words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now. Like this: I am lying in bed. I am hearing rain. I am typing these words. Do this for 10 minutes. Watch the body; what physical sensations are happening?
Then for the next 10 minutes write what you are experiencing without the words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening in the moment, using verbs: Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing rain. Again watch what is happening in the body. Now compare these two ways to label experience. What do you notice?



I am sitting on my chair in my home studio, I just took a deep breath and still wonder why I am dizzy and kind of nervous. I am typing on my laptop. I just noticed a painting on the wall and my thought: “My wife painted this” and the thought “We gonna have dinner together tonight!”
I am sore in my upper body and I think “I should have stretched better at the gym yesterday.”
I am hearing the heater and look out of the window. I see lots of snow and I think if they have snow back in my home country right now. I sit and wait, I wait for something to happen to me. Right now my thoughts are: “ Waiting for something to happen is probably the biggest obstacle in seeing this” and “Hopefully I’ll get it right!”

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feet and fingers are cold, hand reaches for bottle, drinking happens; another two sips. Waiting for the next thought. Fingers typing the keyboard, the resistence of the keys when typing. Hands resting on the wodden table. Feeling sore in the body. The thought of a song. Dryness in the throat. A hand reaching for the bottle. Sound of sirenes. Another sip. Feeling liquid going down the body. Tiredness in the body.
Yawning happening. Again. And again.




Now compare these two ways to label experience. What do you notice?

I noticed that:

* the “I” puts itself in experience and labels experience, to claim ownership and control.
* all the things happened by themselves, as if everything is on automatic. (especially in experiencing without “I” or “me”)
* thoughts are thoughts and not their content.

What is it that attaches itself to experience?

it’s thought!

Am I just a thought?
Is "me" just a storyline of thoughts?
Is "me", am "I" just the CONTENT of thoughts?

HOLY COW!

I keep looking deeper.
"I" have to be clear on this, "I" have to see this!

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smudge
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Re: seeking guidance

Postby smudge » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:28 am

Sweet Jake, keep grounded ,here and now, and take it slow..
I noticed that *the “I”
Describe fully what this 'I' is that is referred to here.
* the “I” puts itself in experience
What is this I? Describe as fully as possible including colour, shape ect...
"I" have to be clear on this, "I" have to see this!
whats this I? sounds like a thought? with a feeling attached? whats the feeling? desperation?

Slowly with kindness, answer these questions

Smudge x
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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jake711
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Re: seeking guidance

Postby jake711 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:51 am

Describe fully what this 'I' is that is referred to here


Thank you for putting my feet back on the ground : )
After investigating this is what I have to report:


It is seen that the “I” referred to here is nothing but a thought, fed by feelings. Yes, feelings of despair, hopelessness…
A clear seeing of “a wanting more.” I don’t know for what reason these feelings and “I” thoughts are here. There is just an observation.

I cannot pin it down, give it a color, a shape or a name.
The closest thing to say is that it is a thought, or an energy.

A thought cannot be clear on another thought.
A thought cannot get anything or do anything.
All it does is it appears and gets replaced by another thought.
A thought cannot put itself into an experience, thats just a bunch of nonsense!
Seeing does not require thought, it happens DESPITE thought.

To round things up: the “I” referred to here is a thought.

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jake711
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Re: seeking guidance

Postby jake711 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:55 am

To clarify: When I wrote "a clear seeing of “a wanting more.” I don't mean a "wanting more" for "a me", but just the energy, the drive of "wanting" itself.


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