Otter and Doris W.

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otterrivers
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Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:48 pm

Otter and Doris W.

Postby otterrivers » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:33 am

Otter Rivers i'll work with you. i'll start with you here. is that ok? we'll just speak in these comments. this is a private group if that is of any concern. only other members can read this.

to start:
i want to ask that you reply as often as possible.
of course I understand there may be limitations on how often you can reply.
I may have days where i cant reply too. But every day is the goal.
Please respond as completely and honestly as possible. only say what you find in your direct experience. leave out any philosophy or anything that you have learned. just look again.
Please leave behind all other "spiritual" reading, teachings, practices, etc for the duration of our talk. if you have an essential daily meditation practice, it's fine to continue that. let's make a space for this.
you must be willing to forget everything and look again like a new baby. ok?

Assuming you agree, let's start with 4 little questions:

1) What brings you to L.U.? How did you find us?

2) When you say "I" "myself" "me" what do you refer to? Is there something real behind it? don't say the right spiritual answer. what is it that you DO find when looking for "myself"?

3) If i say There is no you (I) in reality, how does this feel? what feelings come up?

4) What are your expectations of this process? what should happen if this conversation is successful?

Doris W 1. facebook and a friend who did the guidance process...

Doris W 2. usually I refer to I as this body/mind entity but I also know that if I look deeper that the I is made of thought like memory/my history and future desire. Without the memory and desire there is just being aware.

Doris W 3. It feels OK, there is no I, no me unless I think about it.. but I may not be stabilized in that yet.

Doris W 4. my expectation of this process is to have total clarity about the I, the non existence of it and live life free of the identification with it which even though seen through as non existent is coming back through the back door again and again like an old habit.

Otter Rivers what is your motivation? to improve? if so, what is the motivation to improve yourself?

Doris W there is no self to improve... motivation implies a me... but there is a strong force within myself to realize the truth of who I really am that has nothing to do with the me.

Otter Rivers that's a very good spiritually sophisticated answer but maybe not hitting at the spirit of what i'm meaning to pointing to.

1) "there is no self"
- is this your conclusion?
- how did you come to this conclusion?
- can you prove this?
- is this seen as plain fact or does it just make sense to you?

2) what is this "myself", "who I really am", "me" when you say:

"there is a strong force within myself to realize the truth of who I really am that has nothing to do with the me."
?

3) You say: "Without the memory and desire there is just being aware."

what is this being? is it a being that is aware? or just like a generalized "being"? (and what is that?)

Doris W 1. When I close my eyes and pause the thoughts, there is no self, just being/energy/awareness...no doris story... no-thing.

Doris W 2. maybe I should have said "there is a strong force to realize the truth". That force is not the will power of the me, meaning the me-story but truth wanting to know itself.

Doris W 3.being and aware is the same thing.

Otter Rivers and what is it that sees this?

Otter Rivers and also, you do exist don't you? there you are sitting there reading this right? by asking, i'm not suggesting what is correct. it's just a challenge to what you've said so far. is it enough to say there is no self? are there any loose ends to this point of view, or is it complete?
for example, you don't experience the thoughts i'm thinking. you don't know what I will say next. how is it that I am otter and you are doris?

Doris W seeing sees... no doris it is just a name could be bla... seeing is happening.

Doris W If I ask if I exist, I say yes, because I am aware of that. Its awareness recognizing itself. Awareness comes in different flavors as doris-body or otter-body or chair or table, everything.

Otter Rivers what do you mean when you use the words "I" "Me" "myself" now?

is there a self at all in life in any shape or form? was there ever? if so, what is it?

Doris W there is no self just the knowing and experiencing of everything without the experiencer. If the me identification arises it is seen for what it is ...self identification arising...

Otter Rivers then what is going on with this apparent polarity? what is the difference between actual reality (not the word 'reality' but what the word represents) and what is said? if I say "without the experiencer", how can this exist without "experiencer" to define "non-experiencer"?

i'll try to be more basic... when I asked "what do you mean now when you say "I, "me", "myself"... you still use these words, right? it's hard to talk without those words. what do you mean by them?

Doris W non-experiencer means when there is a sunset then there is just that..nobody saying this is nice, I want to see that again etc... there is total absorption in what is here...

Doris W When I look at this body/mind, called I, me or myself, that is an appearance in reality, an temporary appearance of the ground of being . The ground of being, which cannot be described.

Otter Rivers you said at the beginning you wanted to explore the illusion of "me". what is the illusion of "self"? In your experience, how does it work? how does it begin?
Please describe as fully as possible.

Doris W How is that " me" illusion realized??
As a young child we been told a name which belongs to this body and Separation starts.
Is it true? The name is just a word. Without that word I still exist. Conditioning, beliefs are created through the circumstances and environment, which adds to the separation.
Is it true? Without the beliefs and conditioning I still exist.
We identify with name, country, beliefs, jobs and think that is me. Without the name, conditioning, beliefs, jobs, country, I still exist.
It is all thought created.
There is no “me” or “I”, it is all made up by our name and Belief in the story.
In the stillness of no thought there is just what is.
No preference, no judgment, no resentment, no movement from what is in any direction. Just being with what is the way it is. Total acceptance of what is, but nobody there doing the acceptance, acceptance just happens.
The "me" may still arise but it is seen for what it is....
conditioning operating…

Otter Rivers how does it feel to see this? what's the difference from before you saw this? has anything changed during our dialogue? i gather that this was already your perspective before speaking with me.

can you describe how the seeing occurred? what was the last bit that pushed you over?

Doris W I am very grateful for this exercise. Again and again you pointed to the I, me and myself and asked what it meant in this context. I was able to see where I was using it habitually and want to continue seeing that.

Doris W Yes, I was looking at the "me" before but felt it was taking over again and again. By watching it arising it will be more and more in the background, more and more quiet.

Doris W Thank you again...

Otter Rivers but you didn't really answer.

Otter Rivers _please describe when you saw this. what happened?
what was it that finally got you to see?

_What is the difference from before you saw it and after you saw it?

Doris W It was years of investigation and inquiry into who or what I am.
Until one day I was listening to a tape where someone mentioned that a corpse has a nose, ears and eyes but can’t smell, hear or see. Then a shift happened and I new that I am that by which I can smell, hear and see.
That Life energy, the me went in the background.
It was liberating and freeing. It had a lightness to it, joy and laughter was easily accessible. After some time the me came more and more to the foreground again.
Then I wanted to get rid of the me. I saw that the me can never get rid of the me. And all there is to do is to see conditioning arising and loving what arises.
Doing the exercise with you it became clear again that all there is, is to see the me operating, just seeing....

Doris W I hope this will answer your question...

Otter Rivers you better try harder. I am judging so harshly!

Otter Rivers just kidding. that is a perfect answer as it is your experience.

Otter Rivers another inquiry: Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen?

try to choose to turn your head right or left. can you explain what is really happening during this process we call choice?

Can you please include relevant examples from your experience, if possible?

Doris W no, there is no one to decide, choose, control or make anything happen in life. I am not doing the breathing, or digestion or the heart beating... it is just happening. Waking up in the morning is happening, driving the car is happening, working is happening, grocery shopping is happening, falling asleep is happening, the more I want to control falling asleep the less it is happening...

Doris W try to choose to turn your head right or left..

Doris W there is just turning the head.

Otter Rivers So just to be clear: do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen?

Doris W no, there is no me........

Otter Rivers Anything else you would like to add?

Also, (just an afterthought, nothing you really need to answer if an answer isn't forthcoming. just consider)
I was reading our previous conversation. I wonder if you have any new perspective on this "ground of being" you mentioned. whether there is heat or cold or remembering or forgetting or up or down or anything. it all happens on this ground of being right? Like anything i type here, whether nonsense or profound wisdom, it is all appearing on this screen.

You mentioned that it is indescribable, which I won't argue. is it anything other than what you are?

Doris W its what I am....

Doris W being able to express everything here I feel there is more stability in this knowing....thank you

Otter Rivers are we done or do you feel anything is missing?

Doris W yes, the ground of being is in everything I do...

Doris W I think we are done for right now, there is an ever deepening into the ground of being.....

Otter Rivers ok I agree we are done here.

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