Looking for guide

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Manga
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Looking for guide

Postby Manga » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:54 pm

Hello
Looking for a guide...
Many years of Vipassana meditation until something inside me pushed me out of that. Got in touch with advaita teachings... Still not convinced, but keep being drawn to the no-self ideas....
Lots of love,
Manga

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Manga
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Re: Looking for guide

Postby Manga » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:57 pm

P.s. I won't be able to post daily because I don't have internet at home...

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Re: Looking for guide

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:59 pm

Ok Manga. Do you use a notebook/laptop that you take to internet connection ? or do you use computer at internet cafe ?
Let's start with you telling about your current beliefs and expectations of Enlightenment.

vince

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Re: Looking for guide

Postby Manga » Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:44 pm

Hello Vince,
Thank you for responding.
At the moment I am using someone else's i-pad. And this week I will have daily internet connection. But from next week, when I go back home, I won't have daily access anymore. I will then either check on friends' computers, in an Internet cafe, or with my own laptop in a cafe that has wifi. It depends on what fits into the day. I am usually on the internet once a week. But I can make more effort, and check at least twice a week for example, whenever possible.

Well, my current beliefs and expectations about enlightenment....
I always thought enlightenment was for very few special people. And that I was working towards that, but definitely had many more lifetimes to go, because I believed in a very long, and difficult path! And felt I was nowhere near being so purified that I could even think about enlightenment. This summer suddenly lots of these ideas started to go. And I started to make place for the possibility that these ideas were just ideas, not necessarily true. I notice though, that they are quite deeply ingrained. So that is why, when I think about what my expectations about enlightenment are, there is part of me that just thinks it is unattainable for me, or at least not "here and now". Then another part seems to be afraid of that proving itself, that it will be disappointed because I will not "see" it, or understand it, or get it, or whatever. That I will keep craving or seeking, without truly understanding that the seeking itself is just... Ilusion, I guess. I mean, this path I was on, and believed in strongly (I felt I was doing something good, by being on this path), has disappeared now, so in that sense there is no more seeking. Yet I seek liberation. All contradicting...?
Other expectations about enlightenment, or maybe I can better call it a hope, is that I will not be so unsatisfied with everything anymore. It is not that I go through life complaining, but underneath everything I do or don't do, I feel this dissatisfaction, like being disconnected. I also hope that things become more clear, like, why I am alive, what the sense is. And in what way I can be of benefit, while in this body and in this life.
I don't think these are expectations, I think they are more like hopes.

You also ask about my current beliefs about enlightenment. Also difficult to answer, because I don't really know what my beliefs are on this. As I said I used to think it was extremely rare to get enlightened. I just had ideas that came from stories of Gautama the Buddha. And my beliefs were that I just couldn't imagine really what it would be like to be enlightened. A lot of equanimity, wisdom, compassion, love, etc. not that one would stop feeling emotions, but more that one would stop suffering their emotions.
Now suddenly all these people are saying they are enlightened and I am feeling very suspicious of that! Could it really be? Or are they just stuck on some high level and they don't realize it and think they are enlightened? My mind becomes critical and judgemental too. But in any case, I feel I don't really need to know what enlightenment is exactly. I feel it is probably more fluid then I used to believe, like something that happens in stages, that keeps deepening not that once you got it, you got it and that's it. And people give different names to it too. Maybe what I heard as "stream entry" is more what many people talk about nowadays? I don't know, but it also doesn't interest me too much to speculate about it. Because I don't have the seeing to understand it yet, you know?
Maybe one day I will understand all this better, because I have had some experience or seeing myself?
Mmmmh, I guess an expectation is that things will becomes clearer?

This is what I can come up with now.

Thanks for your time,

Lots of love
Anna
(Is my name, Manga was what some people called me at some point)

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Re: Looking for guide

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:42 am

I am usually on the internet once a week.
The reason i asked is to work out how to go about this. If you do it on your own laptop, then you can take questions and exercises away with you and respond and then when you have internet connection you only have to post your response (which you could do in a text editor - notepad, if using windows or textedit if a Mac) Other things you can respond to while online.
Whatever, we will manage.
Thanks for the discourse on understanding/beliefs/expectations. It gives me a good understanding of your current 'place'.
You are wise to be unconcerned about Enlightenment, as it is a contaminated word. Of the hundreds who have 'gone through the gate' here, (probably) none of them would say that they are enlightened. You will see why in time. Stream entry is certainly a more accurate description, as yes, it never ends. It is certainly not a on/off state.
It is also not something that you will ever understand. Mind is just along for the ride. What 'happens' (nothing actually happens - be prepared for many paradoxes), what 'happens' is way beyond the capacity of the mind to grasp. Any thinking that you 'do' (another paradox) simply points to experiencing. Direct experience. Experiencing before mind introduces a story about what is occurring. Which brings us to our first exercise;
Close your eyes (after reading the exercise) and notice your experiencing of sitting. Then open your eyes and describe what you noticed.





Now do that again, but this time describe what you noticed without using any labels or ownership words (me/my/mine/Anna's etc)


Now notice that there are thoughts that describe experiencing, and there are thoughts that are responding to other thoughts. These (second kind) are always part of a story.
Can you think of anything, other than current experiencing, that is not conceptual ? (story)
Do you experience a self, an I, in any way other than a story about it ?

Anna, please answer every question, but i am more interested in your experiencing as you do, than your actual answers.

love

vince

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Re: Looking for guide

Postby Manga » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:18 pm

Dear Vince,
Thanks for your answer.
Yes, we'll manage somehow with the different internet cafes and friends' computers. Maybe I could sometimes print out any exercises and questions.... I'll see how it unfolds.
It is also not something that you will ever understand. Mind is just along for the ride. What 'happens' (nothing actually happens - be prepared for many paradoxes), what 'happens' is way beyond the capacity of the mind to grasp.
Yes... I know what you mean... and have experienced the huge fear that this brings up in my mind and body. My mind is resisting this a lot and doesn't want to let go off its control.

Okay... great, an exercise...
Close your eyes (after reading the exercise) and notice your experiencing of sitting. Then open your eyes and describe what you noticed.
I noticed... first of all sensations in the body, like something expanding around my hart/chest, and later on that changed. Some physical pain in my back, different sensations of tension, burning, heavyness, sharpness there. Sounds in the house, my daughter playing in the background, family talking, birds singing, some music thing somwhere. And through this all a very prominent stream of thoughts, that are like already saying what I am supposed to be writing to you about this experience, these thoughts, this kind of voice, is pretty loud and almost overrides the experience of just being and sitting. And it also gives me a feeling of hurry. and then I open my eyes and start to write this down. Should I have taken more time maybe?
Now do that again, but this time describe what you noticed without using any labels or ownership words (me/my/mine/Anna's etc)
Okay...
A sensation around the heart again, like the sensation of "being". Hands and feet are tingling. There are different sounds. Someone says something, a respond comes through a voice as "ja" (in Dutch). There is spaciousness. A voice/thought is repeatedly "reporting" what this experience is like, in preparation of writing it down later on. Eyelids are fluttering (is that a word?). The body is heavy. Also sensations of pain though more enveloped in a cloud now.
Now notice that there are thoughts that describe experiencing, and there are thoughts that are responding to other thoughts. These (second kind) are always part of a story.
Mmmmh. i am not sure if I understand (can I say "I" again??). I guess the first type of thoughts you describe are the ones that were so loud, saying what I should be writing, what this experience was being like. Then maybe they were so loud that I didnt notice other thoughts responding to these thoughts? How do you mean they are always part of a story?
Can you think of anything, other than current experiencing, that is not conceptual ? (story)
Do you mean by story, that idea of the person "Anna"?
I guess this feeling of being. That is just like a sensation of... being. I don't know a better way to describe that. Something that is just always there. That doesn't really have a place physically.
Do you experience a self, an I, in any way other than a story about it ?
When I can really sit in silence, without being disturbed (I mean taking time for this question, or for "meditation"), I dont feel like there is an I, other then that feeling I am talking about, what I just called "being". I don't know if I can call that I. It is just something that is there, it is like knowing or feeling that I am (alive), so maybe I do asociate that with being an "I". Or is that in itself already a learned story...?

But to come back to just now, and in this moment,
the story is this me, Anna, sitting in front of the computer typing, hands moving on the keyboard, mind dictating what to write, while hands performing that tasks, sounds of people talking in the house, the story of me being part of these people and related to them, sensations in the body, some fear also in my chest, pain in other parts, one foot cold, one warm, but an I, or a self, other then things I have learned about who I am (mother, daughter, sister- I am with family at the moment- partner, .... even stories I heard about the big Me and the small Me, or being a mass of bubbles or being sensations, thoughts, emotions coming and going... )... All these (sensations, feelings, thoughts) are just being there, and I am not sure if there is something else, except this feeling of just being alive.

Mmmh... It is difficult to answer just in simple terms because my mind is pretty confused and starts to bring up a lot of words...

I will leave it at this for now. Maybe you could explain what you mean with "story". Is this the learned stuff we believe in to be true? The stories of who we are?

Thanks a lot, really. It is good to be able to share my confusion and hopefully come out clearer!

Lots of love
Anna
It is difficult not to identify with the body-sensations as being me. ...

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Re: Looking for guide

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:23 pm

the huge fear that this brings up in my mind and body.
This fear is your friend. It is trying to protect something. It is also a perfect example of story.
You say that you experience it in mind and body. The mind says something like "this is going to end up bad..." and the body reacts with the primitive flight or fight response. Increased adrenalin, muscles tensing, blood rushing to survival organs, etc. The direct experience would have been; seeing (label) words (label) on computer screen (label), noticing (label) thoughts (label) arise in response, noticing thoughts responding to previous thoughts (label), noticing physical response (label) to certain thoughts.
On the subject of labels.. It is impossible to communicate without labels. They are the common agreement for describing things. Here is a read on them; http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html
Okay... great, an exercise...
You did well. Good noticing, no evaluation and perceptive of all of the senses. You also noticed the fact of the thought stream in a (beautiful) objective way.
The second part (describing without labels) wasn't so good, but understandable. Now after the commentary above and reading the link, try again, and remember i'm more interested in what you're experiencing as you try than an actual answer.
My mind is resisting this a lot and doesn't want to let go off its control.
Please define "mind" and describe the process of "control".
Should I have taken more time maybe?
Another great example of the response to story. Can you see what underlies this statement ?
Do you mean by story,...
Concept. Thoughts ABOUT anything, apart from current experiencing.
I guess this feeling of being. That is just like a sensation of... being.
This comes across as a (language restricted) description of experiencing. Is that correct ?
Is there story attached to "being" ?
When I can really sit in silence, without being disturbed (I mean taking time for this question, or for "meditation"), I dont feel like there is an I, other then that feeling I am talking about, what I just called "being". I don't know if I can call that I. It is just something that is there, it is like knowing or feeling that I am (alive), so maybe I do asociate that with being an "I". Or is that in itself already a learned story...?
Anna is both perceptive and wise. It is language that is at the heart of the delusion. (the illusion of an actual I) The problem arises when the label is mistaken for the actual thing, or more accurately, when it is mistaken AS an actual thing.
Where is this "I" ? Can you find it ? Can it be located anywhere ?
..or is it only a concept for the convenience of communication ?
Thanks a lot, really. It is good to be able to share my confusion and hopefully come out clearer!
You're very welcome, and you are right on the verge, requiring little more than a nudge.


love (a label for current experiencing of the Anna concept)

vince

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Re: Looking for guide

Postby Manga » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:40 pm

Hello Vince
Thanks again...
I still have daily internet access today and tomorrow, so I´m making use of that...
This fear is your friend. It is trying to protect something. It is also a perfect example of story.
Starting to understand what you mean by "story"...
On the subject of labels.. It is impossible to communicate without labels. They are the common agreement for describing things. Here is a read on them; http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html
That was interesting.
Starting to understand what you mean with "label".

So "I" is made up of stories and labels only?
The second part (describing without labels) wasn't so good, but understandable. Now after the commentary above and reading the link, try again, and remember i'm more interested in what you're experiencing as you try than an actual answer.
Mmmh... Okay... So I cannot write without the labels. But I understand that all the words we learn to describe things (including things we do, like hearing, feeling, etc.) are labels.

So.... Feeling body sensations. Attention getting stuck on feeling pain in the body. Hearing sounds in the room. Feelings of annoyment in response to the sounds. Feeling sensations in the body as response to this. Increasing of unpleasant sensations in the body. Emotions and thoughts again respond to this. Hearing the sounds in the room become quieter. Noticing different sensations in the body. Different feelings-emotions arising. Noticing feeling of spaciousness. Noticing thoughts of being calmer.

Mmmmh. So these were all labels.
Please define "mind" and describe the process of "control".
Good question! I guess that´s why you are a guide.

Mind... I guess the stream of thoughts that come and go. But as I said that my mind is resisting, I must have also been referring to mind as emotions, as bodily sensations. These all seem to be connected, so it would be a matter of choice to label these all mind, and someone else could either agree or disagree. They all change all the time and come and go.
But when I said that my mind is resisting this, I kind of just meant "I am resisting this", but I learned that it is the mind resisting, and that we have to go beyond this mind. Which I still see as "MY" mind! Argh... I´m getting tied up in a knot. If I just think of what mind is, it is like a mechanism of reactions, either in thoughts, emotions, body sensations. And not much more.

The process of control...
I meant just that idea that I am, or the mind is, in control. That I what the mind says is true. And what it doesnt understand is not true. ... When you tell me that this is something the mind will never understand, and that it is beyond the minds capacity to grasp, then this proces of control I think is what tries to stop this proces in one way or the other, for example, by throwing up arguments against what is trying to be seen, or through the mechanism of fear, doubt...
Manga wrote:
Should I have taken more time maybe?Another great example of the response to story. Can you see what underlies this statement ?
The "I´ll never be able to do this right" story?
Or the "This will take a lot of time" story? The "the path is very long" story?
Or the "I am supposed to be feeling very calm and peaceful now and do this exercise slowly and attentively, with great awareness and inteligence, so he will see I am good" story?
Manga wrote:
I guess this feeling of being. That is just like a sensation of... being.
This comes across as a (language restricted) description of experiencing. Is that correct ?
Is there story attached to "being" ?
Maybe you label this as experiencing ...
The words are confusing in this game ...
Is there a story attached to "being"...? I don't think so, because I don't think it is something someone can teach you to do. It is just there, happening. And then put the label "being" on it.
But interestingly you also call the hearing, feeling, doing stuff "experiencing". So from that perspective, this being is just another form of experiencing, and in itself nothing more special then the other forms of experiencing. The experienced always comes and goes, doesn´t it? Whereas I was presuming, that this feeling of just "being", like being present in the moment, was more special then the other forms of experiencing... Because of ideas like being conscious of the present moment, and only when I am being conscious of this moment I actually feel this beingness. So I thought it was "better" then the others and more real. I don´t know why, but that was the belief. So yes, I guess there is that story attached to it.
But surely it is very useful to be in the moment, and aware of that beingness, instead of for example, lost in thoughts?
Anna is both perceptive and wise.
Yeah... That was what Anna wanted to hear! All is not lost!
Where is this "I" ? Can you find it ? Can it be located anywhere ?
..or is it only a concept for the convenience of communication ?
Mmmh... So if the beingness is just another form of experiencing...
My head is spinning now. So instead of sitting quietly I try to look at this while writing, and then I am sure I will be investigating more once I turn this buzzing computer off.
So I can only find places where the "I" is not. Not in the body, not in the thoughts, not in the sensations, not in the sights, not in the sounds, not in all this experiencing. And so not in this "beingness" that is also experienced.
Experienced by who? I don't understand how there could be no experiencer...
For me this is also just be another story. Because I can say there is no one to experience, but how would that work? And who did I give birth to, for example? Another "nothing"?
you are right on the verge, requiring little more than a nudge.


Mmmh... do you think so?
... Noticing arising of the "I´ll never get this" story...

Thanks a lot, again

Lots of labels,
Anna

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Re: Looking for guide

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:46 am

So "I" is made up of stories and labels only?
When you LOOK, Can you find anything other than that ?
Mmmmh. So these were all labels.
Well, yes, but the things that they describe aren't. Direct experience is before words (thoughts). Try to describe the interaction between a chair and your bum without using any concepts. Is it possible ?
Mind... I guess the stream of thoughts that come and go.
Yes, i describe it as the railway station for thought trains. (thoughts seem to run on tracks too)
But as I said that my mind is resisting,
Can you describe this ? Is it just more thoughts that run in a counter direction ?
I must have also been referring to mind as emotions, as bodily sensations.
Is it possible that many sensations and all emotions are reactions to thoughts ? Beliefs ?
Please define a belief ? Where do they start ? How are they maintained ?
If we believe in Santa, then we discover that belief as false, do they cancel or do we now have two beliefs ?
I meant just that idea that I am, or the mind is, in control.
Is there any control over thoughts ? Can you control what thought next arises ? Can you decide to never think a negative thought ?
The "I´ll never be able to do this right" story?
Or the "This will take a lot of time" story? The "the path is very long" story?
Or the "I am supposed to be feeling very calm and peaceful now and do this exercise slowly and attentively, with great awareness and inteligence, so he will see I am good" story?
Good noticing. You would be amazed at how many people just go into a state of denial on this process.
Maybe you label this as experiencing ...
The words are confusing in this game ...
Direct Experiencing is simply what is noticed that 'inputs' through the five senses, plus the fact of thought (but not it's content) - in the NOW. An experience is something that is finished and so can only be remembered.(thought) ALL description is of memory.(thought). On the other hand, noticing experiencing, before description is noticing Reality. Is anything outside of current experiencing real ? ..or is it only assumed to be real ? ..and if assumed, then it is conceptual. Right ?
Yeah... That was what Anna wanted to hear! All is not lost!
That was an observation (not a compliment)
Mmmh... So if the beingness is just another form of experiencing...
C'mon baby. JUMP ! You have a foot through the gate...
Experienced by who? I don't understand how there could be no experiencer...
You won't understand. Can the eyeball see itself ?
Is it a presumption that there has to be an experiencer ?
Can there be an experiencer without the experienced ?
Can there be the experienced without the experiencer ?
Where is the separation between them ?


Is it just language (mind/thoughts) applying artificial distinction for the sake of... ??
Is is possible that there is only experiencing ?




... Noticing arising of the "I´ll never get this" story...
Would you give this story any more credibility than a story of unicorns ?

love (and excitement)

vince

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Re: Looking for guide

Postby Manga » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:35 pm

Hello again...!
After a night of not sleeping. My head was buzzing from the conversation yesterday.
Manga wrote:
So "I" is made up of stories and labels only?When you LOOK, Can you find anything other than that ?
I guess the concept "I" is in itself a label. A label that is full of stories. I don´t find anything else. I can find a body, thoughts, feelings, sensations, sounds, smells, and all of that, but they are all not "I", or there is no "I" in it.
But it seems filosophy only, because I still feel like an "I" who lived like this and like that, and became such and such a person. Eventhough this story in itself can only be a thought happening now (like ideas and memories), it is at the same time also real. Otherwise, there could not be this person walking around that people call Anna.
Manga wrote:
But as I said that my mind is resisting,Can you describe this ? Is it just more thoughts that run in a counter direction ?
Mmmh. That´s right. Just thoughts expressing an idea, which was opposite to the thing I said the mind was resisting, joined with sensations in the body... And emotions, which are maybe just a mixture of these thoughts and sensations...
So the thing I said was "resisting" is just more thoughts and sensations happening (as a part of some story).
Is it possible that many sensations and all emotions are reactions to thoughts ? Beliefs ?
Please define a belief ? Where do they start ? How are they maintained ?
If we believe in Santa, then we discover that belief as false, do they cancel or do we now have two beliefs ?
Yes, sensations come as a reaction to thoughts, which also can come as a reastion to sensations. I don´t know which one comes first, it seems to be like chain reactions.
Belief.... something you think is true.
Where a belief starts? ... I guess it starts in the moment you learn something about something. You learn it from your own experience, or from the experience or ideas of other people (parents, school, society, books, t.v., communication in all types of forms), or from suggestions of others, and you find it sounds reasonable, so you start to believe in it, or maybe from expectations based on past experiences....
How are they maintained? ... By having experiences that confirm your ideas. Or other people that have the same beliefs, and you take this as confirmations. Or by not having experiences that contradict your belief. Or by closing your eyes for other possibilities. By not questioning your belief.
You can not really have two contradicting beliefs, if you really believe one to be true, or if you really question both. Although you could have seemingly contradicting ideas when you just look from different points of view.
Is there any control over thoughts ? Can you control what thought next arises ? Can you decide to never think a negative thought ?
I cannot control what thought next arises. And I myself never managed to only think positive thoughts. But I do think you can consciously train your mind to have different types of thoughts. Like for example, in a meditation retreat, you notice that in the first days the thought stream is very turbulent. After a few days, it calms down, thoughts are of a different type, more peaceful, maybe less anger, aggitation, more compassionate thoughts. So is that not some form of control?
Or when I sit down with a book, with the intention to study a certain subject. And then the thoughts start to arise about that subject. Is that not also some form of intention or control?
Direct Experiencing is simply what is noticed that 'inputs' through the five senses, plus the fact of thought (but not it's content) - in the NOW. An experience is something that is finished and so can only be remembered.(thought) ALL description is of memory.(thought).
I understand that. So the direct experiencing is what is happening before this "reporter" thoughts are coming up telling me what is happening. Because in trying to "do" something in this proces, my mind is now constantly trying to report on what is happening, reporting on thoughts, sounds, smells, sensations, etc. Followed by thoughts of annoyance.
On the other hand, noticing experiencing, before description is noticing Reality. Is anything outside of current experiencing real ? ..or is it only assumed to be real ? ..and if assumed, then it is conceptual. Right ?
Anything outside of this moment? Cannot be not real now, except for just a thought arising. Either memory (a thought coming up in this moment), or some expectation, or fantasy about the future (another thought in the now). Yet the experience one had in the past doesn´t become untrue does it? Only that it is now a thought, rather then a direct experiencing...
In any case. Yes, I get that anything outside of this moment is not being experienced directly now. And is just a thought arising now.
That was an observation (not a compliment)
Sure. But I was just describing Anna´s reaction to that.
C'mon baby. JUMP ! You have a foot through the gate...
Argh. "I´ll never really get it" story coming up.
I understand there is only experiencing now. But how do you make that jump from this being an intelectual understanding, but life is lived the same as before, to something ... that is really seen?
You won't understand. Can the eyeball see itself ?
Is it a presumption that there has to be an experiencer ?
Can there be an experiencer without the experienced ?
Can there be the experienced without the experiencer ?
Where is the separation between them ?
Yes I´m presuming there has to be an experiencer, because otherwise I could be my sister, and neighbour, and anyone else imaginable, but I am this Anna. Born here and there on such and such a time. I must somehow be connected to that, otherwise, why did I hang around this bodý-mind all that time?
If I presume that I am an experiencer, and let´s say this experiencer is experiencing sadness (the experienced), can there be sadness without the experiencer? Yes. Because many people experience sadness, it doesn't belong to one experiencer only. So can there be an experiencer without the sadness? Yes, because the experiencer can also experience other emotions, not only sadness.
Like if there is a storm outside, but noone to witness it, there is still a storm outside...
??????

Where is the separation between the sadness and the experiencer of the sadness?
In that moment... There isn't. Because the body-sensations, and the thoughts, that are associated with the label sadness, are being experienced by...? Argh. But to know they arise, these thoughts, and sensations, there must be a witness, or observer. Who is maybe not experiencing it, because the experiencing is happening in that body and that mind... But if there wasnt something aware of it, how could we even be talking about it?

Arising of confusion...
Where is the separation between the confusion and the experiencer of it?
The confusion and the experience of it, all seem to be happening inside this concept of "Anna", I mean, in the body, in the thoughts, not anywhere outside of that. But I don't get where the awareness of it is happening. Or even the capability to observe that thoughts arise, pain in the head is present, tension in shoulders, hands typing, eyes reading the words, more thoughts, all of that stuff, who or what is aware of that? It cannot be a nothing, to have awareness?
Is it just language (mind/thoughts) applying artificial distinction for the sake of... ??
Is is possible that there is only experiencing ?


Oh... I read this before (when I read your whole email before responding)... And now again... It would seem easier to only have experiencing.
But why do I then forget about it and have to tell myself this? Just more thoughts arising?
Do you not need a lot of awareness to be aware of all the stuff that is being experienced from one moment to the other?
I am confused about where the awareness comes into all of this.
The distinction is just to be able to communicate?
Would you give this story any more credibility than a story of unicorns ?

Well, unicorns exist, right?

Lots of love, and lots of thanks
Anna

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Re: Looking for guide

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:29 pm

Good morning Anna.
My head was buzzing from the conversation yesterday.
Neurons re-aligning... (my story anyway)
I guess the concept "I" is in itself a label. A label that is full of stories. I don´t find anything else.
So clearly it doesn't exist. Did it ever ?
I still feel like an "I"
Of course. Without that, how could you operate in the world. It is a useful concept.
There is also, how many years of habit operating here ?
it is at the same time also real.
The fact of the story is real, but is it's content ?
here could not be this person walking around that people call Anna.
Is "person" a label for the organism ? ...and of course, those that are still asleep think that they are addressing a real self. (which is fine)
So the thing I said was "resisting" is just more thoughts and sensations happening (as a part of some story).
Yes, but the results of that are tension or stress until you see that it is just more thoughts. Which you do...
Here is a good place to introduce what will rewire your brain quickly and definitively.
Firstly (while you have internet connection) watch these two videos;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mskv8uxmnmf2f ... _Being.mp4 (this one will download to your computer from my dropbox - so do it on your laptop if you can and then your can watch it again. it's compelling)
Now, here is what you will do; every time that you catch a thought stream taking off and recognize that this is about to hijack emotions, you will either laugh out loud or at the very least, chuckle. It is important that your stomach muscles contract (a laugh spasm) If you are in public, just a quick exhale from your nostrils, but with that stomach contraction and an inward smile. Feel the eyes brighten. This floods the body with beneficial hormones and facilitates the the establishment of new neuronal pathways (synaptic connections) and allows the pathways associated with the old habits to atrophy.
See the chuckle as a reward for the recognition that an old story was about to run.

There are many things to watch for in the first video, but for the moment, look out for the part where they use virtual reality goggles to shift the sense of self to outside the body and behind him. This shows how the brain conceptualizes a self for the convenience of operating in the world - very clever, but it also adds to the belief that a self actually exists.
Belief.... something you think is true.
Yes, a thought that other thoughts affirm. But a bit more than this. Once the other thoughts affirm the original thought (with associated emotions) then that thought is allowed to be accepted without awareness. That is, it is responded to automatically and reconsideration is not required. This is a great saver of time and energy, but once again all beliefs need examination as many are based on fantasy. They will be seen as they arise.
So is that not some form of control?
No. They are the result of dependent conditions. Thousands of them. (after many years of Vipassana, i would never say that i have control of these things...)
Is that not also some form of intention or control?
Certainly intention, but control ???
Yet the experience one had in the past doesn´t become untrue does it? Only that it is now a thought, rather then a direct experiencing...
Yes, but... is the memory of this a memory of the experience or the story that it stimulated ?
Argh. "I´ll never really get it" story coming up.
Can you see the beliefs underlying this story ?
But how do you make that jump
'you' don't. Jumping happens.

i'm out of time now (have 9 holes of golf) so will get to the rest of it in a few hours.

vince

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Re: Looking for guide

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:45 am

can there be sadness without the experiencer? Yes. Because many people experience sadness, it doesn't belong to one experiencer only.
Doesn't it ? Isn't sadness just a label applied to the unique and particular set of conditions that each organism is experiencing ? How can you presume that your sadness is the same as any other ? Can you find sadness ? ..touch it ? Can it exist independently of the experiencer ?
Like if there is a storm outside, but noone to witness it, there is still a storm outside...
How do you know that there is a storm outside, if you in no way witness it ?
But if there wasnt something aware of it, how could we even be talking about it?
Exactly. But go a little further... Without a witness (experiencing), how do you know that it actually exists ?
who or what is aware of that? It cannot be a nothing, to have awareness?
In order to have a no-thing there has to be a thing that is not there.
Awareness is not a thing. Is it a description of a process ? Awareness IS experiencing, or more accurately, experiencing is awareness. ..but we get ahead of ourselves here. At least until you grok (if you don't know that word, look up wikipedia) that there cannot be independent experiencer and experienced. So let's stay with this a little longer.
Take seeing a tree. Where is the separation between the see-er and the seen ? Halfway between the two ?? Right near the tree ?? Close to the see-er ??
Where exactly does the see-ing happen ?


compassion here (for the mental gymnastics Anna is experiencing)

vince

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Re: Looking for guide

Postby Manga » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:07 pm

Dear Vince

Ive been looking at awareness these days. Because I struggled with the idea of awareness not being 'mine'. Or that has been happening. Starting to see that the intention to focus on something, to put my attention to something, just comes, without there being a me who controls that. Eventhough it always seemed (and seems) that way. If i put my awareness on my breath, I thought I did that with my own volition. But then when I look at the thought that started that volition, I don,t see where that comes from. Not from a 'me' anyway.
Or for example, if the I start to do certain exercises or meditations; and as an effect the concentration is stronger and the awareness is stronger, then that is happening to this Anna. But it wasnt this Anna who planted the first thought of starting to do that exercise; because that thought just happened, for one reason or the other. And maybe Anna needs to be doing that for some reason. But in any case, it wasn't really her 'choice', eventhough she seemed to have chosen to spend her time that way.

Many times today is a bit like a movie-land. Witnessing how Anna passes the moments of the day. Reminds me of childhood. And things and people look for beautiful and new to the eyes.
Doesn't it ? Isn't sadness just a label applied to the unique and particular set of conditions that each organism is experiencing ? How can you presume that your sadness is the same as any other ? Can you find sadness ? ..touch it ? Can it exist independently of the experiencer ?
I guess I dont know what sadness feels like for someone else. The same like I dont know if when we see a blue sky, we both see the same colour. I cannot find sadness, as it is just a label for some things that I do find; like the physical sensations, or certain types of thoughts.
So who is the experiencer then? The voice that is labelling that experience as sadness? Which was just a thought?
If I ask if the sadness can exist independently of the experiencer, my mind does a lot of saltos and goes blank.
It says the sadness is the experiencer.
But then it starts to have many thoughts, and doesnt understand.
Manga wrote:Like if there is a storm outside, but noone to witness it, there is still a storm outside...

How do you know that there is a storm outside, if you in no way witness it ?
Maybe it was on the news?
I don't know.
If noone witnessed it, we cannot know I guess.
Manga wrote:But if there wasnt something aware of it, how could we even be talking about it?

Exactly. But go a little further... Without a witness (experiencing), how do you know that it actually exists ?
Just the existing itself, the experiencing.
In order to have a no-thing there has to be a thing that is not there.
Mmmmh.
Just the thought comes that I dont know what to say anymore now.
Awareness IS experiencing, or more accurately, experiencing is awareness. .
That makes sense now.
At least until you grok (if you don't know that word, look up wikipedia) that there cannot be independent experiencer and experienced. So let's stay with this a little longer.
That sounds like German. I looked it up, nice word. I dont think I have gone grok yet. But it seems to be grokking at least a bit more then a few days ago.
Also... instead of me thinking I have to get somewhere with this, and can possibly fail (and expecting I will fail even), I realize this process happening in this body and mind is a proces that I dont control, because I cannot possibly have that control. (because there is no I, but that still hasn't grokked totally)
Just realizing that the process is happening because it is happening...
Take seeing a tree. Where is the separation between the see-er and the seen ? Halfway between the two ?? Right near the tree ?? Close to the see-er ??
Where exactly does the see-ing happen ?
I'll get back to you on this, okay?

Thanks a lot
Lots of love
Anna

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Re: Looking for guide

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:59 pm

Oh Anna, tears of joy in these eyes. Your words are music. Beautiful.
To explain a little... When the 'shift' has occurred (gate passing - stream entry, whatever) it becomes very clear when someone is story telling, or relating to what is real. ..and this jumps out from your words this morning.
i'm not going to point from your response this morning as i will wait for the rest of yesterdays - it is pivotal.

Although the illusion of an actual self, is the portal that is used mostly here at LU, it wasn't the portal that 'did' it for vince. The portal that tripped me through the gateless gate was THIS IS IT ! and to stop scratching the mosquito bite of seeking and IT will be SEEn.

..great love and excitement

vince

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Re: Looking for guide

Postby Manga » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:27 pm

Good morning Vince!
When the 'shift' has occurred (gate passing - stream entry, whatever) it becomes very clear when someone is story telling, or relating to what is real. ..and this jumps out from your words this morning.
Oh... I never realized...
That was it?

I realized you wrote 2 emails last time, and I only read the last one. I never saw the first one.
So clearly it doesn't exist. Did it ever ?
No if the "I" doesn't exist now, it didn't ever.
Manga wrote:I still feel like an "I"

Of course. Without that, how could you operate in the world. It is a useful concept.
There is also, how many years of habit operating here ?


32 years...
So it is okay to still be feeling like an "I"?
The fact of the story is real, but is it's content ?
Well... a memory. So now it is a story. Once it was just experiencing. Now it's just a thought.
Is "person" a label for the organism ? ...and of course, those that are still asleep think that they are addressing a real self. (which is fine)
A label I guess yes.
Firstly (while you have internet connection) watch these two videos;
I'll have to do that another time, this week.
Now, here is what you will do; every time that you catch a thought stream taking off and recognize that this is about to hijack emotions, you will either laugh out loud or at the very least, chuckle. It is important that your stomach muscles contract (a laugh spasm) If you are in public, just a quick exhale from your nostrils, but with that stomach contraction and an inward smile. Feel the eyes brighten. This floods the body with beneficial hormones and facilitates the the establishment of new neuronal pathways (synaptic connections) and allows the pathways associated with the old habits to atrophy.
See the chuckle as a reward for the recognition that an old story was about to run.
I'll try that.
No. They are the result of dependent conditions. Thousands of them. (after many years of Vipassana, i would never say that i have control of these things...)
Mmmh, true...
'you' don't. Jumping happens.
so... you are saying that this jump happened?
I mean... things are quite different, but at the same time, it's all the same. And the mind comes up wit doubts and wonders if I just made it up somehow, because I wanted it, or whatever. But I guess this is a moment to chuckle, right?
vinceschubert wrote:Take seeing a tree. Where is the separation between the see-er and the seen ? Halfway between the two ?? Right near the tree ?? Close to the see-er ??
Where exactly does the see-ing happen ?

I'll get back to you on this, okay?
I am not sure if I am getting anything... chuckle.
anyway. This exercise... I look at things, like last night I was looking at a fire, and all the seeing and experiencing was happening inside the body and mind. Perceiving through the eyes, the skin (warmth), the nose, and then emotions following, etc. But that was all inside of "me", but then there was no "me", so it was all just happening inside this body and mind. Not in the fire, or not somewhere on the edge of my skin or something.
but I thought this was all too much intelectual thinking, and I was supposed to come up with a better answer. Should I chuckle now too?

It is quite strange someone telling me I made some sort of shift, and me not being sure that that happened. But I guess that may be thoughts just coming and going. And the story I made of what it would be like.
The portal that tripped me through the gateless gate was THIS IS IT ! and to stop scratching the mosquito bite of seeking and IT will be SEEn.
You mean as in just this, now, experiencing happening?
..great love and excitement
To you too Vince. AND a lot of gratefulness.
I know my mind is still rattling like a mad person. But I guess the shift doesn't happen in the mind.


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