Seeking a Guide

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paulagsell
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Seeking a Guide

Postby paulagsell » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:57 am

Hello,
My name is Paula, I have worked with self inquiry for the last two years, prior to studying nondulaity I was a student of Eckankar for 15 years. I am ready to see through the story of "Me" and look forward to finding a guide to gain clarity of truth.

Thank you
Paula

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paulagsell
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby paulagsell » Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:26 pm

Good morning,
I thought perhaps I would share a bit of history with you regarding the story of "Me". For most of this life I had the feeling that something was missing. I saw myself as being overly sensitive and meek. As I got older I studied Psychology in order to try and understand this self. I thought I was somehow flawed and beyond repair, being I felt so different and separate from others, at least that is what the thoughts told me. When I was in my thirties I went through a period of intense anxiety and turn to Transcendental meditation. I meditated for hours a day and started having out of body experiences. The experiences were amazing, but I didn't have a clue what was going on and my search began. The strong burning desire to know what I was so intense, I read book after book, but I still could not understand what was going on within me. I found a path known as Eckankar and began my studies. I was told I was a soul in a body and probably learn the art of soul travel in a past life. I remained with Eckankar for 15 or more years, but for some reason Eckankar and their beliefs did not resonate fully. Three years ago I found Eckhart Tolle, Deepak Chopra and countless others and began the studies of nondulaity. I have practiced self inquiry and observing the thoughts as they arise, there seems to be more spaciousness and peace these days. I follow Jackson Peterson's 5 principles. Jackson suggested I read "The Gateless Gate". This is where I'm at now. Feeling like I'm teetering on the edge of some unknown truth that needs to be seen clearly. It seems like in between working I am either studying or practicing inquiry, it's like seeking has become an addiction. Knowing what I am is first priority. I'm ready to see without these darken glasses of concepts and beliefs. I look forward to finding a guide.
Thank you,
Paula

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Bill
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Bill » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:23 am

Hello,

Thanks for being here.. You sound like you are very ready.
Thanks for writing the 2nd post.. it's helpful to know where people are on things..
I will go over some of it as we continue for sure.

Please take a look at the intro page of LU here, it contains our disclaimer and a short video too.
Watch the short video on 'looking', it's very helpful...

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Some guidelines that I would like your agreement on:

1) Agree to post daily or email if you are not able. You can post more often if you want.

2) Please set aside any other spiritual practices during this inquiry.

3) I will ask questions and you answer.... mostly just answer without thinking..
just look at what comes up..
Answer to the very best of your ability at that time
Try to avoid 'spiritually correct' answers. If you know what I mean.
And answer all questions given... they do build upon each other.

4) If you do agree to the above....please share what your expectations are to see through the illusion of the separate self, and of any concerns/fears about that?
What will things be like? Or what do you want them to be like?

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and are in agreement, we can go ahead and get started.

Bill

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paulagsell
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby paulagsell » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:44 pm

Hello Bill,

Thank you for getting back to me. I have read Liberation Unleashed, watched the video and sighed the waver.
I agree to all the guidelines.

What are my expectations of seeing through the illusion of the separate self? The desire for truth has been there for a long time, so I am sure from all the reading of others experiences I have pick up many ideas on what it will or should be like. The expectations that come up for me are, there will be a sense of freedom and joy, knowing that there is no longer someone to judge. The fears that come up about caring for this "Paula" character will be diminished because life takes care of life, and in seeing this somehow I expect a sigh of relief. The expectations of fear does come up and thoughts about going mad do arise. I imagine being without the illusion of a separate self can be shocking to the mind.
What will things be like? I imagine things will pretty much be the same as they are now, but without the worrying and wondering about future events for this imaginary "me". I guess there is an expectation of Peace of mind and an end to psychological suffering.

Thank you!
Namaste
Paula

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Bill
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Bill » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:35 pm

Hello Paula

I don't see anything that should be a problem in your expectations.
If possible just drop all of them. Be open as you can to what might be.
This is really about seeing what's here and learning what's a story and what's not.

What do you feel is really getting in the way of seeing "without these darken glasses of concepts and beliefs"?

What is your reaction when I say that the you that you think you are is not real?
That there is no I/you in real life; none.... zero.
That if looked for, it can't be found.
That there's just life... flowing.
Just what is.

What comes up for you?
Feelings, thoughts, reactions, sensations.... list all and any that come for you.

I'd also like you to read one of our guide's nice short essay on direct experience.
It can be helpful.
http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... ce-de.html

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paulagsell
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby paulagsell » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:58 pm

Hello Bill,

I will go over the questions and get back to you tomorrow with my findings. Going to read the essay you suggested.
Thank you!
Paula

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paulagsell
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby paulagsell » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:09 pm

Hello Bill,

I want to thank you for helping me through this process, your help is greatly appreciated. I went over your questions and here is what came up.

What do you feel is really getting in the way of seeing "without these darken glasses of concepts and beliefs"?
Fear was the first to come to mind. What's behind the fear, I do not know. Fear of madness, I recall a out of body experience many years ago of seeing myself in a wheel chair, screaming "what is this madness "as I was being taken away to a funny farm! That experience stuck in my mind for the last 20 years. I see that there is a belief or fear that this may happen. I know it is just all thoughts. Perhaps we can explore this deeper.
There seems to be concern for how one will function? It sounds silly because with or without the belief in a "me" life just flows as it has and always will.
Last week while I was reading the enlightening quotes I had a glimpse of no "me" for just a second and I felt fear come up. I would like to explore this fear.

What is your reaction when I say that the you that you think you are is not real?
I find this exciting and somewhat scary. The thoughts arose that "now I can relax" and truly give it up to God/Life. On an intellectual level I understand and find no "I" during inquiry except as a thought that pertains to this living organism, but there is still a feeling or some sense of person-hood, it's like I can't quite put my finger on it. I think deep down inside there is this knowing, this vast empty knowing of truth.

Feelings, thoughts, reactions, sensations.... list all and any that come for you.

Sensations of energy moving in the chest area, that has been labeled (fear) and a sense of excitement come up. There is also a feeling of joy to know that there is no separation, a sense of freedom , just this life, seeing, hearing and feeling. A sense of amazement for life rises.
Not being this "me" feels like a relief, but since there is no "me" that means there is no one else either, this feels a bit scary, but who is scared? The ego ? What is this fear? There is only thoughts and sensations, a thought or sensation cannot think or feel.

Thank you!
Paula

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paulagsell
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby paulagsell » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:24 pm

Hi Bill, Is is alright to continue to read here while investigating? I'm getting some insights in DE as closer attention is paid to the senses. Very interesting!

Thanks again.
Paula

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Bill
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Bill » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:39 am

Hello Paula.. thanks for your answers. I can see you're starting to LOOK. :)

I notice the word 'fear' coming up a lot in your answers. Yes, this can provoke a bit of fear.
Questions can come up like.....What will become of 'me', will I be able to function? Will I turn into an emotionally flat zombie? Will my relationships survive? Can I still work OK? and many others.
It seems to be different for everyone, most have no issues at all and integrate this fine into their life. Others can take a while to bring this fully into their daily life... there can be a bit of an adjustment period.
It's not unusual you had feelings of both fear and excitement. Not uncommon at all. Its scary on the one hand and thrilling on the other.
Let's take a look at the fear first before we get too far into this.
We have found its best to deal with it early on as it can be an impediment down the road.

We are afraid of losing our story.. what would we be without it? Its become so familiar and comfortable to us.
In this respect, the fear is your friend. Its trying to protect you. Protect you from the unknown, from something imagined or even something unimagined.

What would be the worst that could happen if you were totally disconnected from your story? What might that look like? Would it be so bad? Look at the fear that comes up around this and sit with it. Let it be there. See if its something you can handle.
We ask people to sit with the fear for awhile, and then look behind it...
Is there anything real there? Can you find anything if you look?


Id also like to start with some of my questions for you.. We can work with the fear too as we go along.
What we don't really do in any way is try to figure out 'why' to any of these issues, because it really doesn't matter why.

We want to look at thoughts particularly in this dialogue.
Our thoughts are huge in our experience.
Looks like you've got some suffering around your thoughts
and with your fears in particular.
Can you tell me where your thoughts arise from?
Where do they originate?
Are the thoughts yours?
LOOK for yourself here with honesty.
Hi Bill, Is is alright to continue to read here while investigating? I'm getting some insights in DE as closer attention is paid to the senses. Very interesting!
Sure if you're meaning other threads and the website stuff in general.

A few other housekeeping things:
Please learn to use the quote function, as explained in the heading section of the Guiding area.

You can click 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive an email every time I post here.

Sometimes on a really long reply, you might get logged off and lose what you've written because the site has timed out your response. A bummer for sure...It's happened to all of us. Two things to do to get around this. if you're on a long reply, highlight and right click & save the text... the other way is to write your response in another editor and then copy and paste it in the reply window. Hope this helps.

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paulagsell
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby paulagsell » Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:14 pm

Good morning Bill,
What would be the worst that could happen if you were totally disconnected from your story? What might that look like? Would it be so bad?
Bill, I can honestly say I cannot see anything that would be a so-called negative in knowing the truth. Being disconnected from the story of "me" could only be freeing, no limitations or judgments from the story of lack , just what is in the moment, seeing, hearing, feeling.
We ask people to sit with the fear for awhile, and then look behind it...
Is there anything real there? Can you find anything if you look? I
sat with the fear and went into a loving discussion with whatever fear is. I asked it to show me what it was that it was frighten of, and the would loss came up. The contractions dissipated shortly after just allowing it to be, instead of trying to get rid of the uncomfortable feeling. There was a gentle allowing of whatever. Behind the would loss is nothing, there isn't REAL
there .
Can you tell me where your thoughts arise from?
Thoughts just seem to arise in this empty space and descend back. I can't find a location. In truth I have no idea how they come to be.
Where do they originate?
Thought just appear out of nothing! Thought can be seen, heard and clearly perceived, yet no location can be found! A guess would be that they originate from conditioning (subconscious reactions).
Are the thoughts yours?
The first thought that came up was yes, even though this clearly makes no sense. The thoughts belong to this Paula character, her conditioning..I watch the thoughts, better yet..seeing is happening, isn't it? feelings giddiness arising??
Bill, I will continue to explore whatever arises and report back to you. Thanks again for your guidance.

Sincerely,
Paula

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paulagsell
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby paulagsell » Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:32 pm

Hi Bill,
I meant to address your observation of the suffering around thoughts that arise and seem to cause Contractions
(fears).
I have observed this too. I have seen this before, seems to be some sort of conditioning. Apparently there is some belief around certain thoughts that arise (identification). I understand that finding the fears origin is not necessary
<3
Paula

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paulagsell
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby paulagsell » Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:41 am

Hi Bill, I wanted to tell you about an exercise that I found here that I worked with this evening.

Write for me what you are experiencing right now using the words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now. Like this: I am lying in bed. I am hearing rain. I am typing these words. Do this for 10 minutes. Watch the body; what physical sensations are happening? Then for the next 10 minutes write what you are experiencing without the words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening in the moment, using verbs: Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing rain. Again watch what is happening in the body. Now compare these two ways to label experience. What do you notice?
I did this exercise on my way home from work for about twenty minutes and I found it very interesting to see that all the movement, thoughts, and sensations came before they were named as seeing is happening, driving is happening, etc. There was a seeing without the "I" thought and the body was relax without the self referencing.
Namaste,
Paula

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Bill
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Bill » Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:05 am

Hi Paula,

I like that exercise, it's a good one.... what does it tell you?

Yes, thoughts seem to appear out of no where.
We can't really find an origin point.
It appears we are thinking them, but are we?
Do you know what your next thought will be? For real. not a contrived situation.
How about sometimes some weird thoughts come in... where did they come from? You chose them?
Can you stop your thoughts from arising?

Yes sure, there is this seeming control.
But is it true?
Is it really true?
Are you really in control of your thoughts?
Check for yourself.
LOOK.

Looking at the thoughts, do they all start out with an I attached, or does the I attach to the thought somewhere?
In other words, are they all about you?

Try this small exercise. Look at the computer.
Is it more correct to say, it is A computer? or MY computer?

Can you attach a computer to a self? If so, how do we do it?
How do we possess something? What is the process? How is something made 'ours'?

**********************************************************
Just let this in... you can comment on it or not.

"Its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple."

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paulagsell
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby paulagsell » Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:01 am

Good morning Bill,
I think I had the quoting thing backwards, sorry about that!
Do you know what your next thought will be? For real. not a contrived situation.
How about sometimes some weird thoughts come in... where did they come from? You chose them?
Can you stop your thoughts from arising?
I don't know what my next thought will be..strange thoughts arise and I have no idea where they come from. Clearly if I had a choice, I certainly would not choose to think some of the scary thoughts that arise, they just come up. Why do certain thoughts cause such a disturbance to the body? What believes the thoughts? another thought? The only way thoughts stop is when attention is brought to the senses and even then, thoughts will come rushing back in. It's as if thinking is habitual. I have had long moments of thoughtlessness and even that is not by some choice.
Sometimes it feels as though I can STOP thoughts by shifting focus and it feel as though I control them. This thought arose "I wish I could see clearly, I wish it would click", why am I not getting this? Frustration is arising within, contractions in stomach and chest.
Yes sure, there is this seeming control.
But is it true?
Is it really true?
Are you really in control of your thoughts?
Check for yourself.
LOOK.
Bill, from observing the thoughts, there is no control, What I have notice is the thought is usually an afterthought after movement or action appears. The body will get up and make a cup of coffee, then the mind says, I'll make some coffee and sensations arise like an itch and there is noticing the body just scratches, no thought about it. It just happens.
Looking at the thoughts, do they all start out with an I attached, or does the I attach to the thought somewhere?
In other words, are they all about you?
It seems as though thoughts start out with an "I" attached, other times the "I" gets attached somewhere in the story. Yes, it seems a majority of thoughts are self centered.
Try this small exercise. Look at the computer.
Is it more correct to say, it is A computer? or MY computer?

Can you attach a computer to a self? If so, how do we do it?
How do we possess something? What is the process? How is something made 'ours'?
I'm trying to be totally honest about what comes up, when looking at the computer, the mind says, it's mine, "I" bought it.. there is the "I" thought that takes ownership of what is seen, but can this "I" own or possess something? No not really a thought can't possess anything. I also went through is exercise with other things, like "my home", "my arm", "my thoughts," sat outside and observed the trees surrounding "my" home. In reality these things/objects are what they are they cannot belong to a so-called "me" which is only a thought.
Bill, it does seem so simple..yet it hasn't clicked!

Thanks again Bill for your time.
Namaste,
Paula

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Bill
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Bill » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:43 am

Nice work Paula, yes honesty and real answers are what will serve you here for sure
You're doing great...

We look at the nature of thoughts and see, just like your first reaction that they are almost always possessive in nature, about me, mine or I in some shape or form.
Thoughts arise, labels are put on the thoughts and we have ownership. Ownership is just another thought. All possession is through thought alone.
If you took two cars, one 'yours' and another of the same exact model side by side, it's only our thoughts that tell us one of them is ours.
Do you see how literally all thoughts are stories? We see, a label is put on what we see, and a story is developed.
Every thought is essentially past tense in its nature. Describing something that has happened in the past.
The only thing that is real is what is happening right now and here. To see this we need a willingness to see that what we might have been thinking all along is not how things are. Or at least open to the possibility that we have not seen things as they are. We need a willingness to see prior to labels being put on what we see. We only need a very short amount of this 'pure' perception or SEEING to see that I is truly illusory in nature.

We use the word LOOK here quite a bit..
What does it mean in this context....to LOOK? Can you describe LOOKING?

Now how about the body? Is that owned and controlled in reality, by a self?
Lets look at it and see if there is an owner or entity controlling it.
Lift one of your hands. either one....
Move it to the right. Now move it left. Look with your eyes what is happening. Did a self move the hand?
Or did the hand just move?
Direct observation. Move it again. Check it.
Which is more true, the hand moved, or a self moved the hand?


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