Ready to gatecrash

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garden
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Ready to gatecrash

Postby garden » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:21 am

Hi,

I am ready to see that I don't exist and I am looking for a guide.

I have been seeking for answers from many places for many years and have only discovered the non-dual stuff in the last few. I found this website after seeing something on the internet about it while reading reviews of Jed McKenna's books (I have read the trilogy) I have read brutal beginnings, gateless gatecrashers, got the app, and read lots of blogs from those associated with this website.

Even though I have done some of the exercises my biggest problem is staying focused. I find I keep seeking as an avoidance to actual looking. I am hoping by engaging someone and having to answer questions honestly that I will do the work, stop making excuses and end it once and for all.

So anyone out there willing to help me crash through the gate?

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Paulo
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Re: Ready to gatecrash

Postby Paulo » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:25 am

Hello garden, my name is Paulo, and it would be a pleasure to guide you.

A few ground rules -

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from personal experience only.
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
5. Read the FAQ page to get an idea of what we do here - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_FAQ.html

Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

If you are happy to agree to the above, let me know and we can begin.

Paulo :-)

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garden
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Re: Ready to gatecrash

Postby garden » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:15 pm

Hi Paulo,

Thanks for agreeing to guide me.

I have read the disclaimer and the FAQ and agree to the ground rules.

I am keen to begin :)

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Paulo
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Re: Ready to gatecrash

Postby Paulo » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:58 pm

Hi garden,

Wonderful to have you here, and welcome! Let's begin -

What EXACTLY are you referring to when you say 'I' or 'me'?
(Be as specific as possible here - lots of details would be great)

Paulo.

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garden
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Re: Ready to gatecrash

Postby garden » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:25 am

Hi Paulo,

Just wanted to let you know that I am working on defining my "I". I have tried to reply a couple of times but every time I try post my message it takes me to the login screen and I loose what I wrote (I am already logged in). Maybe I am taking too long to write it?? If this message works I know that's probably the reason.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know that 'I' am thinking on it and will try write something later tonight or tomorrow.

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Paulo
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Re: Ready to gatecrash

Postby Paulo » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:32 am

Thanks garden (great name btw!),

Yes. sometimes the system logs users out if they're logged in for a time. A suggestion would be to write out your response in Microsoft Word, or similar, then there's no danger of being logged off, and a bonus is you'll have the entire dialogue saved on your PC for your records.
Anyway, just wanted to let you know that 'I' am thinking on it and will try write something later tonight or tomorrow.
Just a little pointer - don't think about what the 'I' is - just LOOK, and see what it is, it's really simple. This process works well when you really go for it full on, it's like climbing a steep slope - the more momentum you have the easier it is to get there. But if you stop or stall along the way, it's more difficut to get started again.

Look forward to hearing for you soon, Paulo :)

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garden
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Re: Ready to gatecrash

Postby garden » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:55 pm

Hi Paulo,
A suggestion would be to write out your response in Microsoft Word, or similar, then there's no danger of being logged off,
Good idea. Ill do that from now on. Now down to business :-)
What EXACTLY are you referring to when you say 'I' or 'me'?
(Be as specific as possible here - lots of details would be great)
“I” refers to the all that is experienced by this particular combination of body and mind.

If I were to point to an “I” it my finger points to my solar plexus. If I were to think a bit more about it “I” feels like it is in the middle of my head.

It refers to the bodies location in space and time and its actions. Eg. I went to the shops (past), I am going to the movies (future), I am typing on my computer (present)

It refers to what the body senses. Eg. I see the computer monitor, I feel my fingers typing, I hear talking in the background.

It refers to the mind and all its thoughts, emotions, opinions and beliefs Eg. I don’t like the colour pink, I think spiders are scary, I have a bad singing voice.

All this combines together to make a different unique "me" as opposed to someone else with their own unique body and mind combination.

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Paulo
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Re: Ready to gatecrash

Postby Paulo » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:29 pm

Hi garden,

Very nice response garden, thanks for that. Let's look a bit deeper today -
“I” refers to the all that is experienced by this particular combination of body and mind.
Is that 'I' something seperate from the body and mind, or just a label for those experiences?

What is the mind?
(I know, really deep, but have a go, and answer only from direct experience, no speculation or theories here - just what you find when looking :)

Paulo.

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garden
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Re: Ready to gatecrash

Postby garden » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:01 am

Hi Paulo.

I hope you are well. I meant to tell you earlier that I chose the name garden as thats what I like to do.
Thank you for being my guide, its proving to be a very fascinating experience.
Is that 'I' something seperate from the body and mind, or just a label for those experiences?
The 'I' is not something separate from the body and mind. When looking at this question the mind kept calmly telling me in a matter of fact way that “I is just a label”. When I look at what I wrote earlier it is proof that it is just a label for those experiences. But when looking at this I also felt some resistance and tightening in my stomach. When trying to focus on the resistance it disappears briefly and seems to be moving about. Like a moving target so I can’t look at it.
What is the mind? (I know, really deep, but have a go, and answer only from direct experience, no speculation or theories here - just what you find when looking :)
The mind is thoughts, it is the little voice in the head. It is the processor that takes input from the world makes a bunch of decisions and then produces an output
This question is a doozy. It looks like such a simple question but I found it hard to focus on. I guess proving that there is so much assumed meaning. Something about this question is proving really hard to grasp. I will keep looking at it but thats what I have for now.

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garden
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Re: Ready to gatecrash

Postby garden » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:07 am

OK I am a bit clearer. Mind is a label for non-physical experiences. Eg (thoughts, opinions, beliefs, decisions). They feel like they come from inside the head.

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Paulo
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Re: Ready to gatecrash

Postby Paulo » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:54 pm

Hi garden,
Thank you for being my guide, its proving to be a very fascinating experience.
You're very welcome of course, my pleasure :) And nice to hear you are a keen gardener too!
When I look at what I wrote earlier it is proof that it is just a label for those experiences.
Perfect, you can see that there are just experiences, which are labelled 'me' 'mine' 'yours'. There is no 'thing' seperate from all that having those experiences.
Mind is a label for non-physical experiences. Eg (thoughts, opinions, beliefs, decisions).
Good beginning, let's have an even closer look.

Is there a difference between physical and non-physical experiences, or is it ALL just experience?

Is there anything observing these experiences?


Paulo :)

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garden
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Re: Ready to gatecrash

Postby garden » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:28 am

Hi Paulo,
Is there a difference between physical and non-physical experiences, or is it ALL just experience?
It is all just experience. There appears to be a difference between that which is seen outside the body by the eyes and that which is not. Is there a difference? The physical is more solid, can be felt and manipulated through the body and other people can experience the same thing, like a tree for instance. The non-physical experiences are more personal and not shared. So if I were to imagine a tree, it is not the same tree you would imagine. However both physical and non-physical experiences are an experience and all of them are processed by the brain.
Is there anything observing these experiences?
The act of observing is an experience and not separate from it. It feels sometimes like there is a separate observer but when really looked at, there is not. Just a thought of having observed something (which is an experience of thinking).

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Paulo
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Re: Ready to gatecrash

Postby Paulo » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:44 am

Hi garden,
The act of observing is an experience and not separate from it
Lovely! Yes, in my experience too, observation is just as much an experience as that which is being observed. It's only labelling and thoughts of seperation that make them SEEM different.

A nice practical exercise/example to investigate this is to look at a table. What is seen?

A table of course - but zoom in - you see legs and a table top. Zoom in closer - you see the table top is made of a laminate surface and a wooden base. Zoom again - you see the wooden base is made from individual wood fibres, which are made of molocules, which are made from atoms, which are energy potentials in a unified field (according to Einstein at least :).

Now look at the table again - this time zoom out - what do you see? A room - Zoom out again - you see a building. Zoom out once more - you see a city block, then a city, then a state/country, then a continent, then a plant, a solar system, a galaxy ... well, you get the idea :)

Point here is - it's thought that creates all these divisions. It's thought that literally 'created' the table where there was no table before - it's created by a label and seperating it from all that surrounds it. But this seperation does not exist in reality.

Consider the idea presented above and share your experience, you may even like to try that exercise :)

Share your thoughts on how does this relates to the illusion of self.

Consider also the picture below in the same light -

Image
There appears to be a difference between that which is seen outside the body by the eyes and that which is not
Look at that 'outside' idea a little closer -

Is the body just another label for sensory experiences?

Is there really an 'outside'?
(Consider our exercise above with the table, about created divisions when responding)
The physical is more solid, can be felt and manipulated through the body and other people can experience the same thing, like a tree for instance.
Sure, but is there really a tree, or just the experience of a tree, and therefore wouldn't everyone's experience of that tree be different?

Here's a little story for you - two people walk to the top of a mountain to watch a beautiful red sunrise. One comments - 'isn't this amazing! such vivid colours, it's almost like an oil painting - how wonderful', the other looks at her and scowls 'Are you kidding, a red sky in the morning means there will be rain later on, looks like we're in for a miserable day ahead'.

It's the 'same' sunset, but very different experiences. Consider how unreliable eye witness accounts are to crimes. Here's a nice little video to watch too - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

Paulo.

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garden
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Re: Ready to gatecrash

Postby garden » Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:14 am

Hi Paulo,

I have been looking at all the questions and I have much more looking to do. I feel I am hitting walls and am trying to come at this stuff from different angles. I am continuing to look at the questions but wanted to post an update of where I am at with this so far.
Point here is - it's thought that creates all these divisions. It's thought that literally 'created' the table where there was no table before - it's created by a label and seperating it from all that surrounds it. But this seperation does not exist in reality.
OK. Hit a wall here. There isn’t a table? Surely there is a table. I can feel the edges of it with my hand, not just see it with eyes or think it with mind. A glimmer of something else was just experienced while considering this, but not getting it.
Consider the idea presented above and share your experience, you may even like to try that exercise :)
I tried this exercise a couple of times and had seen a video before of something similar on you tube. I watched it again. http://youtu.be/H-l4UYlQGwc
I think that our brains and physiology are wired to focus on a particular perspective of reality. A tree would not at all look the same to a bird or a bug given their size, physiology and the purpose of a tree to them. If we were giants that could only see the planet as a speck of dust then we could never see the table. Something really small would experience the table very differently again.
I think you are trying to point to something else here though but I am not seeing it.
Share your thoughts on how does this relates to the illusion of self.
I am drawing a blank here, I am going to keep at it though
Is the body just another label for sensory experiences?
One part of my mind is saying “yes of course”. But I don’t think I really GET it. I know I am not the word body, the self is made up of more than a body. I have been trying to focus on the body as sensation and the sensations coming in rather than constantly dismissing them which is what usually happens.
Is there really an 'outside'?(Consider our exercise above with the table, about created divisions when responding)
Certainly appears to be an outside. The outside of the body. A glimmer is of something else is being thought here, I will keep looking at this.
Sure, but is there really a tree, or just the experience of a tree, and therefore wouldn't everyone's experience of that tree be different?
I think there is really a tree but agree that everyone’s and everything's experience of a tree is different, based on beliefs, thoughts, physiology etc. Unless you are saying there is no tree like there is no table?

Thanks again for all this Paulo.

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Paulo
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Re: Ready to gatecrash

Postby Paulo » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:05 pm

HI garden,

Oops ... too much too soon? Your responses reminded me of that old joke - 'How do you eat an elephant? - One bite at a time' ;) We might take a different angle just for the moment, and return to these ideas later, so don't stress if you think you've hit a wall - we're moving beyond that wall by walking around it.

Over the next few postings we will be examining the concept of Direct Experience, i.e. what is actually experienced in reality, and seeing of you can find an 'I' operating separately there. You may have read Neil's article on direct experience before, but here is the link anyways - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html

Today we will explore the first aspect of direct experience - THOUGHT

Think of a dinosaur sitting under a tree.

Share your experience of what happens when you think of a dinosaur in as much detail as you can.

How did the thought arrive? Was there an 'I' there choosing the particular dinosaur that appeared in thought, it's colour, size, etc?

How did that particular dinosaur appear from all the possible dinosuars that could have appeared?


Paulo.


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